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Post by the light works on May 20, 2014 14:09:23 GMT
Oregon doesn't burn coal for electricity. the plants that DO buy fuel to burn, burn natural gas. - at up to 54% efficiency and then use the waste heat to produce steam for steam turbines. and that's just the plants that buy their fuel, not the ones that burn methane discharge from landfills or use wind and hydroelectric sources. 54% is the overall efficiency IF you use a second stage of turbines for using the waste heat of the main gas turbine. In the Netherlands, they use the waste heat to grow shrimps and to heat greenhouses. no, 54% is the efficiency of the electricity generation, and then they sell steam to the neighboring mills.
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Post by the light works on May 20, 2014 14:20:37 GMT
but the fact of the matter is that the ICE will probably become obsolete in my lifetime. simple drive ICE is currently only viable because of the cultural resistance we have to hybrid drive ICE. Unless you are Methuselah, I think the ICE will probably be around long after you're gone. We just have no viable alternative and none looking good in the near, or even not so near future. Electric? Not even close. We just don't have the battery capacity and even if we did, we don't have the generation capacity or distribution infrastructure to charge those batteries. Even a small electric car takes more energy than an average home does. And I mean a home under full power. Air conditioning, washer and dryer, dishwasher, water heater, everything all working at once. So even if we solved the battery problem overnight, we still couldn't totally eliminate the ICE. Electric fuel cell powered car? Again, not going to happen anytime soon. If we had the fuel cell tomorrow, we still need a totally new distribution system for the hydrogen to fuel those cells. To say nothing of the capacity to generate all that hydrogen. And the reason people are rejecting ICE-Hybrid has nothing to do with culture. In fact, the only reason this technology is as popular as it is, is because it was culture driven. It was a fad. You weren't considered environmentally friendly unless you drove one of these over priced and under preforming vehicles. Fortunately, that's changing now because people are coming to their senses and because new ICE technology has gotten to the point that small ICE's are just as fuel efficient as ICE-Hybrid designs and much cheaper. keep in mind that in the early 1900s they were saying the same thing about horses.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 20, 2014 14:44:46 GMT
keep in mind that in the early 1900s they were saying the same thing about horses. And in 2099 they may be saying that about the ICE. But then, maybe not.
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Post by the light works on May 20, 2014 16:09:27 GMT
keep in mind that in the early 1900s they were saying the same thing about horses. And in 2099 they may be saying that about the ICE. But then, maybe not. I re-read back to the original post - just to make sure I hadn't drifted too far. the original post was indeed in reference to Toyota's new prototype, and the question was whether it was genius or vaporware. my thinking is that the technology is actually technology that has been developed in the past, but the applications were not there for it yet. It may be that gas/electric applications have reached a point where a gas/electric vehicle can be cost competitive, at least for a while. unfortunately, automobile technology is one of the more conservative technology fields there is; and there tends to only be majority acceptance of new ideas when it either becomes an overwhelming commercial success; or it becomes mandatory.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 20, 2014 17:43:20 GMT
If anybody is going to make it work, it would be a major car company like Toyota. They aren't in it to prove a theory. It has to be something they see as a future marketable product or they wouldn't be investing in it at all. Guess we'll have to just wait and see if it goes anywhere. I'm hoping it's a huge success, but I'm still skeptical.
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Post by the light works on May 20, 2014 20:05:09 GMT
If anybody is going to make it work, it would be a major car company like Toyota. They aren't in it to prove a theory. It has to be something they see as a future marketable product or they wouldn't be investing in it at all. Guess we'll have to just wait and see if it goes anywhere. I'm hoping it's a huge success, but I'm still skeptical. I see potential as a variable displacement engine technology without the drawbacks of simply shutting down part of a conventional engine. I think the only truly viable model is the opposed piston model, (I.E. piston on each end of the linear generator, making each cylinder a horizontally opposed 2 cylinder engine) built as a low battery capacity car (lighter battery load, but engine nearly always runs) or as a high battery capacity car (heavier battery load, but with plug in hybrid capability) it has the potential to operate more efficiently than a mechanical drive hybrid, by tuning engine use more closely to energy use. - of course, the key will still be if it can meet the customer's needs. personally, if I could get my next vehicle with 25% less fuel costs, that would save me around 1700 dollars a year.assuming a 10 year lifespan, that gives me $17,000.00 to budget for the new technology. of course, as I said before - they appear to be planning to release heavy vehicles with true hybrid technology around the 5th of never.
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Post by c64 on May 21, 2014 13:52:40 GMT
no, 54% is the efficiency of the electricity generation, and then they sell steam to the neighboring mills. Correct, but including the secondary set of "wet" turbines. The reason why most modern power plants don't have them is that the "wet steam" grinds down the blades pretty rapidly so they are hardly economic. They do make sense in jet-style gas turbines but those can't be made very large so only smaller power plants can be made this efficient.
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Post by the light works on May 21, 2014 14:06:05 GMT
no, 54% is the efficiency of the electricity generation, and then they sell steam to the neighboring mills. Correct, but including the secondary set of "wet" turbines. The reason why most modern power plants don't have them is that the "wet steam" grinds down the blades pretty rapidly so they are hardly economic. They do make sense in jet-style gas turbines but those can't be made very large so only smaller power plants can be made this efficient. smaller decentralized power generation is better planning, anyway. it reduces the transmission infrastructure necessary. I'm sure that power plant has no trouble supplying that entire corner of the state, with some to spare. to compare to portable backup generators - they are rated at 13-18% efficient. the one I saw that advertised 60% efficiency was a 1.5 KW ceramic fuel cell. at around $8000 per unit, and needing 6 of them to meet my backup power needs that runs my current backup generator for 783 days. considering I average about 100 hours per year on my backup generator, that gives me my breakeven point in about 180 years. not exactly a viable option.
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Post by c64 on May 21, 2014 14:11:49 GMT
keep in mind that in the early 1900s they were saying the same thing about horses. And in 2099 they may be saying that about the ICE. But then, maybe not. Of course, the ICE will always be used as a very simple and reliable way to power something mechanically. But just like horses, they will loose their importance to every day life soon. Of course I benefit from people still owning horses. I would miss a decent Sauerbraten if nobody would breed horses! And computers can never replace the newspaper in all respects!
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Post by c64 on May 21, 2014 14:13:27 GMT
Correct, but including the secondary set of "wet" turbines. The reason why most modern power plants don't have them is that the "wet steam" grinds down the blades pretty rapidly so they are hardly economic. They do make sense in jet-style gas turbines but those can't be made very large so only smaller power plants can be made this efficient. smaller decentralized power generation is better planning, anyway. it reduces the transmission infrastructure necessary. I'm sure that power plant has no trouble supplying that entire corner of the state, with some to spare. So how many Megawatts does it have?
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Post by the light works on May 21, 2014 14:27:51 GMT
And in 2099 they may be saying that about the ICE. But then, maybe not. Of course, the ICE will always be used as a very simple and reliable way to power something mechanically. But just like horses, they will loose their importance to every day life soon. Of course I benefit from people still owning horses. I would miss a decent Sauerbraten if nobody would breed horses! And computers can never replace the newspaper in all respects! right, wrapping fish in a laptop kind of squashes the fish.
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Post by the light works on May 21, 2014 14:29:58 GMT
smaller decentralized power generation is better planning, anyway. it reduces the transmission infrastructure necessary. I'm sure that power plant has no trouble supplying that entire corner of the state, with some to spare. So how many Megawatts does it have? the main plant is 506 megawatts with a 100 MW "peaker" plant alongside. iberdrolarenewables.us/klamath.html
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Post by the light works on May 21, 2014 14:32:20 GMT
of course, this is compared to our primary power plant at 1227 MW (Bonneville dam)
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Post by the light works on May 21, 2014 14:35:25 GMT
there is also a 5.66 MW power plant at one of our local landfills, running off the methane from the landfill; which some of my own power comes from.
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Post by c64 on May 21, 2014 14:50:07 GMT
This is a "small" one. That's the trouble with those things. Using lots of smaller ones is a lot better for a more even power distribution, more redundancy and the "small" ones can be more efficient depending on their technology. Also you can sell much more waste heat for pure heating purposes instead of growing white clouds. But the problem is that nobody wants them near their homes which is very counterproductive and the only solution is to build real big ones where there is little demand.
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Post by the light works on May 21, 2014 15:00:28 GMT
This is a "small" one. That's the trouble with those things. Using lots of smaller ones is a lot better for a more even power distribution, more redundancy and the "small" ones can be more efficient depending on their technology. Also you can sell much more waste heat for pure heating purposes instead of growing white clouds. But the problem is that nobody wants them near their homes which is very counterproductive and the only solution is to build real big ones where there is little demand. yeah, I forget the distance. its about 2-3 miles out of Klamath Falls. - next door to the plant that buys the steam from them. (by Oregon standards, anyway) keep in mind our average population density is only 40 people per square mile, compared to Germany with 609 people per square mile. (the US has an overall average of 84 people per square mile) (and now you know why the automobile culture is so strong in the US - only the major cities have enough people to make mass transit cost effective) (Australia has 7 and the UK has 650.)
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Post by c64 on May 21, 2014 15:27:49 GMT
This is a "small" one. That's the trouble with those things. Using lots of smaller ones is a lot better for a more even power distribution, more redundancy and the "small" ones can be more efficient depending on their technology. Also you can sell much more waste heat for pure heating purposes instead of growing white clouds. But the problem is that nobody wants them near their homes which is very counterproductive and the only solution is to build real big ones where there is little demand. yeah, I forget the distance. its about 2-3 miles out of Klamath Falls. - next door to the plant that buys the steam from them. (by Oregon standards, anyway) keep in mind our average population density is only 40 people per square mile, compared to Germany with 609 people per square mile. (the US has an overall average of 84 people per square mile) (and now you know why the automobile culture is so strong in the US - only the major cities have enough people to make mass transit cost effective) (Australia has 7 and the UK has 650.) There is only one single survival show here in Germany and they must follow a very tightly given path. No matter where you are, you can walk back to civilization in just a few hours. And the most dangerous animal is the tic. And as long as you leave the few wild pigs alone, you are perfectly fine. I can't remember any time where I wasn't able to see or at least hear anything which would give me a clue how to head back to civilization.
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Post by the light works on May 21, 2014 15:52:05 GMT
yeah, I forget the distance. its about 2-3 miles out of Klamath Falls. - next door to the plant that buys the steam from them. (by Oregon standards, anyway) keep in mind our average population density is only 40 people per square mile, compared to Germany with 609 people per square mile. (the US has an overall average of 84 people per square mile) (and now you know why the automobile culture is so strong in the US - only the major cities have enough people to make mass transit cost effective) (Australia has 7 and the UK has 650.) There is only one single survival show here in Germany and they must follow a very tightly given path. No matter where you are, you can walk back to civilization in just a few hours. And the most dangerous animal is the tic. And as long as you leave the few wild pigs alone, you are perfectly fine. I can't remember any time where I wasn't able to see or at least hear anything which would give me a clue how to head back to civilization. here, more people are killed by deer than by any other wild animal (any one species, not all other species combined). - mostly in traffic crashes.
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Post by c64 on May 21, 2014 16:19:51 GMT
There is only one single survival show here in Germany and they must follow a very tightly given path. No matter where you are, you can walk back to civilization in just a few hours. And the most dangerous animal is the tic. And as long as you leave the few wild pigs alone, you are perfectly fine. I can't remember any time where I wasn't able to see or at least hear anything which would give me a clue how to head back to civilization. here, more people are killed by deer than by any other wild animal (any one species, not all other species combined). - mostly in traffic crashes. Deers are the main cause of accidents with animals involved. 171,000 accidents with deer in 2012, 194.000 accidents with wild animals in total. About 20 people die in average each year. The Tic kills up to 10 people per year.
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Post by paulsee on May 23, 2014 13:52:08 GMT
This is interesting. An added advantage is the reduction in size of power generators. In effect, if implemented properly, the generator is part of the engine design. There would be a lot of issues to hurdle, but shows promise.
If perfected, I can imagine this being implemented by high performance cars that could use an electric system to speed up acceleration with electric drive.
I wonder if there would be any weight savings due to integration of the electric generator with the combustion engine?
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