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Post by mrfatso on Aug 21, 2014 12:27:52 GMT
The walls of many Castles in Britain are constructed of a core of rubble, bound by a lime mortar with inner and outer facings of dressed stone, this is probably due to the easy of using that type of construction. But I have also heard it said that it also enabled a castle constructed in such a manner to better survive attack by a siege weapon, a wall with straight joints will transmit the damage through the structure more easily than the infill with random shapes and mortar, even if it might seem weaker, the random structure breaks up the shock wave patterns as they travel through the wall .
I was thinking two sections of wall could be made, and possibly Old Mosses borrowed for another test, or construct a mangonel?
Edit should this be moved to having a Blast?
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 21, 2014 12:49:26 GMT
No, its a different myth because;
The type of castle wall you are talking about predates gunpowder, or at least its large scale use as a siege weapon. So it was a type of construction that was intended to resist trebuchet's, not cannon fire. The latter tended to make a mess of this type of wall very quickly.
Therefore Old Moses (or any type of cannon) would not be suitable for testing resistance in these types of wall. It would rather be like testing a medieval shield, which was designed to protect against swords, arrows etc against a modern rifle. c I do seem to recall something about 'dead-space' armor design, where you have two layers of armor with a gap between them. The idea was that any impact to the outer layer would transfer less energy to the inner. I can't recall where I caught this, although I don't think this was a history or science book but something about theoretical types of armor. I'm wondering if what I read was based on this.
Can you find/provide any links to the design of castle walls in England? Remember, the shows researchers like to have somewhere to look if they find an idea interesting enough to pursue.
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 21, 2014 16:02:34 GMT
You could calibrate Old Mosses to,produce a muzzle velocity such that it simulated the amount of kinetic energy that a hit from an earlier siege weapon was simulated. The cannon is a 6 pounder, and the weight that some Trebuchets threw was greater, you might be able to find an equivalence.
I will try to find something on the construction of a wall.
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 21, 2014 16:19:44 GMT
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 22, 2014 6:43:07 GMT
The two skin wall with rubble filling castle wall may have been built in two stages. Single skin, along comes gunpowder, then double skin and rubble.... we just dont know, because the records were destroyed by the victors?... but double skin walls in construction are typical post gunpowder.
Anyway, it has been tested by certain historians, and the bag of rubble as a cannon ball stopper works out rather well. The double skin was to keep the rubble in place and support a top gantry way where they could mount cannon to fire back.
Lime mortar... the outside of castles painted white was a thing to advertise their presence and domination, I believe this was started after Wales was finally conquered, and then it became traditional to advertise them against sea invaders. Mortar between the stones of a castle wall initially was not the usual, because the stones were designed to fit that well, they didnt need it. With walls being generally upwards of six foot thick, they were mostly weather resistant anyway?.
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 23, 2014 6:55:25 GMT
The two skin wall with rubble filling castle wall may have been built in two stages. Single skin, along comes gunpowder, then double skin and rubble.... we just dont know, because the records were destroyed by the victors?... but double skin walls in construction are typical post gunpowder. Anyway, it has been tested by certain historians, and the bag of rubble as a cannon ball stopper works out rather well. The double skin was to keep the rubble in place and support a top gantry way where they could mount cannon to fire back. Lime mortar... the outside of castles painted white was a thing to advertise their presence and domination, I believe this was started after Wales was finally conquered, and then it became traditional to advertise them against sea invaders. Mortar between the stones of a castle wall initially was not the usual, because the stones were designed to fit that well, they didnt need it. With walls being generally upwards of six foot thick, they were mostly weather resistant anyway?. We know a bit about Castle wall construction pre gunpowder era due to the remains of ones that were confiscated and laid to ruin after periods of civil war such as the Anarchy and the Barons War, from what I understand they had such a building technique before the days of Gunpowder. Whilst castle walls were whitewashed, the stone walls where not as well fitted as that and did need to use lime mortar to fit the stones together, Richard The Lionhearted built Castle Gallliard in France in only 2 years, and it was said to be structurally weak as the mortar was not able to set properly.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 23, 2014 13:08:30 GMT
The original houses of parliament, as in Guy Fawkes, had a double wall about seven feet thick filled with rubble and mortar.
I suspect that the double wall was less about providing structural strength, and more about trying to insulate the structure. Remember that whatever else castles were used or designed for they provided accommodation for the owner as well as those troops stationed there. Even during a siege guards needed somewhere warm (or warmer) they could stand out of bad weather - especially archers who needed to keep their bows out of the rain. No guard is all that effective when their hands are numb with cold.
I'd suspect that castles used what were standard building techniques and designs for the time, which would make sense as they were probably built by local artisans who when they were not building castles were building normal buildings. The double-wall design was probably also a LOT cheaper and faster than trying to make a single thick wall. The gap between two walls allowed stairs to be build into them without having to hack them out of solid rock. And two thinner stone walls meant using smaller stone blocks, which would be cheaper and much easier to transport.
One problem we have in regards looking at old castles in the UK (or anywhere else for that matter) is that they were not static. They evolved over time, sometimes because the castle needed to be extended or the owner wanted some new feature/building. Other times because the nature of warfare had changed and new design features - such as the Bastion - appeared and were added to castles to improve their defenses. Gunpowder saw castle walls cut down and widened so they could accommodate cannon for example. Any castle you look at in the UK will have gone through several different designs in its lifetime. Some started as wooden structures, turning into rather small stone keeps with a wall and then spreading outwards to become larger structures will high walls, and then loosing the high walls in favor of thicker but lower walls with bastions added to the corners.
Likewise castles that fell into disuse tended not to to just stay there slowly falling prey to the elements and time. Like any other stone building the locals were quite happy, if not delighted, at having a source of pre-dressed stone they could use to build new homes with. Even if they had considered the possibility of future generations being interested in the original building, their need for somewhere to live right now took precedence. It is not uncommon to find that old buildings in the UK contain stones that came from even older buildings.
Last of all there was a period in which old castles were refurbished or rebuilt not for defense but as pure status symbols and high class housing - and in later periods in the UK some people had 'old castles' built on their grounds as a feature.
None of this means that we don't know, or at least have a reasonable idea as to how castles were built. Rather we can't be sure exactly WHY castles were built in certain ways. Those people who were there and writing about them assumed anyone reading their notes would understand such things - for example if we write about driving somewhere to see someone, we make the assumption that whoever is reading our notes doesn't need to know the legal and practical limitations placed on the design of the vehicle. In the case of a castle the design features were most likely limited by cost and practicality (which would be related to some degree). It probably wasn't practical to try and construct castles using complex techniques that would be unknown to the local builders. Not only would it cost more to bring in a large workforce from further away to build it. But castles needed a lot of maintenance, so you'd end up having to bring at least some of these people back every year to do the needed work. Likewise building a single wall from thick blocks of stone would have cost a fortune to buy and transport, and if you needed to replace or repair part of the wall you'd end up spending a lot of money for a couple of new stone blocks. Practically having a single wall has a potentially more dangerous problem attached to it. If you had to repair a wall and replace blocks lower down you'd have to remove all the blocks above it...which means dismantling part of the wall. A surprise attack at that point would allow the attacker to run straight though the gap without having to deploy any siege equipment. With a twin-wall you would have at least part of the wall in place, preventing any attackers from being able to do this. A weak wall is better than none at all.
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Post by the light works on Aug 23, 2014 13:59:33 GMT
now, we ARE talking about the perimeter wall - the one that is to be keeping the bad guys out, aren't we? I have always assumed that was built thicker than the walls of the dwellings for the residents - both noble and common. I can see the noble residence also having thick walls - but it would be more important to build those walls for weather resistance then the protective wall.
I am interested in whether two walls with a rubble wall in between would be more resistant to damage than a wall built out of similar sized stone - but a completely stacked and interlocked wall - and also whether it would be easier to replace damaged stones.
it occurs to me that a mortared and whitewashed exterior wall would also make it more difficult for sappers to weaken the wall by prying stones out of it .
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 23, 2014 14:11:58 GMT
My point about the construction of castle walls was that the basic technique was most likely the same as with larger and more expensive stone buildings of the period, since these techniques would be known to workers in the local area. The only major difference would be in the scale of construction.
It is much the same as a shopping center being built near me. The way the structure is being constructed is identical to the way new homes are built, even though the center is several times the size. Other than a couple of minor changes in materials being used (steel rather than wooden structural beams) the nature of the construction is identical. This is cheaper than trying to build something in a totally new way, since the same people who were building local houses could be used to build the shopping center. If they had, for example, decided to build the center underground they would have had to bring in a different set of workers and use different tools and equipment - which would have increased costs for no good reason.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 23, 2014 15:41:29 GMT
My knowledge of the time shows stone masons were stone masons, and in that, Mobile. They moved around where they were needed, a construction that could take decades may be a lifetime living in one place, but other than that, if you wanted the best masons, you waited to build you castle until that Cathedral was finished, or took "Second best". Saying that, in times of war, build barricades, in times of peace, build Churches...?... England had a long history of building good solid stone construction. This was where we get the stone masons guilds from, and even Free Masons.
Free Masons.... Origins of the term, quick side note, Free Stone is a type of stone, such as Bath stone, that out of the ground is relatively soft and easy to work, allowing intricate carvings. (Bath stone also hardens over time....) Thus the idea that the free was to denominate the masons were free from any political religious or any other ties is false, it was from the type of stone they used.
The Masons formed a guild, a sort of early trade union, under each sites Master Mason, to preserve quality of building work. That master mason would probably then take his band of nomadic tradesmen from one site to the next finding work. Other trades, carpenters and such, would stay local, as they had enough work to be such, but masons went where they were needed, as BIG builds didnt happen that often... the idea was once in stone it was permanent. Hence the phrase, "Written in Stone"..... Which also denominated each masons work mark that they left in each stone to trace back who did what.
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Post by the light works on Aug 23, 2014 15:42:55 GMT
My point about the construction of castle walls was that the basic technique was most likely the same as with larger and more expensive stone buildings of the period, since these techniques would be known to workers in the local area. The only major difference would be in the scale of construction. It is much the same as a shopping center being built near me. The way the structure is being constructed is identical to the way new homes are built, even though the center is several times the size. Other than a couple of minor changes in materials being used (steel rather than wooden structural beams) the nature of the construction is identical. This is cheaper than trying to build something in a totally new way, since the same people who were building local houses could be used to build the shopping center. If they had, for example, decided to build the center underground they would have had to bring in a different set of workers and use different tools and equipment - which would have increased costs for no good reason. in contrast, our common house building style is lightweight stick frame construction - and our current new commercial structure is a concrete tilt-up structure. but I agree - the basic technique of stone walls would be similar between cottages and castles
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 23, 2014 16:24:00 GMT
My knowledge of the time shows stone masons were stone masons, and in that, Mobile. They moved around where they were needed, a construction that could take decades may be a lifetime living in one place, but other than that, if you wanted the best masons, you waited to build you castle until that Cathedral was finished, or took "Second best". Saying that, in times of war, build barricades, in times of peace, build Churches...?... England had a long history of building good solid stone construction. This was where we get the stone masons guilds from, and even Free Masons. Free Masons.... Origins of the term, quick side note, Free Stone is a type of stone, such as Bath stone, that out of the ground is relatively soft and easy to work, allowing intricate carvings. (Bath stone also hardens over time....) Thus the idea that the free was to denominate the masons were free from any political religious or any other ties is false, it was from the type of stone they used. The Masons formed a guild, a sort of early trade union, under each sites Master Mason, to preserve quality of building work. That master mason would probably then take his band of nomadic tradesmen from one site to the next finding work. Other trades, carpenters and such, would stay local, as they had enough work to be such, but masons went where they were needed, as BIG builds didnt happen that often... the idea was once in stone it was permanent. Hence the phrase, "Written in Stone"..... Which also denominated each masons work mark that they left in each stone to trace back who did what. In some cases due to the Royal Archives we know the name of the Masters that were employed on the project and a record of the accounts. I think the most famous of these figures was James of St George, who was employed to build Edwards Welsh castles.
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Post by Lex Of Sydney Australia on Aug 24, 2014 14:26:23 GMT
The Masons formed a guild, a sort of early trade union, under each sites Master Mason, to preserve quality of building work. That master mason would probably then take his band of nomadic tradesmen from one site to the next finding work. Other trades, carpenters and such, would stay local, as they had enough work to be such, but masons went where they were needed, as BIG builds didnt happen that often... the idea was once in stone it was permanent. Hence the phrase, "Written in Stone"..... Which also denominated each masons work mark that they left in each stone to trace back who did what. Dragon The phrase “Written in stone” actually refers to a biblical reference aka: the Ten Commandments written on stone tablets by Gods own hand.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 25, 2014 12:16:54 GMT
Each mason did piece work in this country, to get paid, they had to prove they did "That that and that" stone, as their mark was on that stone, they had to get paid, as the evidence "Was written in stone".....
So perhaps two origins for the same phrase...?...
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Post by Lex Of Sydney Australia on Aug 27, 2014 11:17:22 GMT
Each mason did piece work in this country, to get paid, they had to prove they did "That that and that" stone, as their mark was on that stone, they had to get paid, as the evidence "Was written in stone"..... So perhaps two origins for the same phrase...?... Perhaps it's worth investigating. I've only ever heard of the biblical reference.
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Post by the light works on Aug 27, 2014 14:01:18 GMT
Each mason did piece work in this country, to get paid, they had to prove they did "That that and that" stone, as their mark was on that stone, they had to get paid, as the evidence "Was written in stone"..... So perhaps two origins for the same phrase...?... Perhaps it's worth investigating. I've only ever heard of the biblical reference. If I had to register an opinion, I would say the biblical reference precedes the masonry reference - which is to say the masons may have adopted it, but the history of writing things in stone that you wished to be permanent is a good bit older than paying your laborers is.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 28, 2014 9:25:36 GMT
TLW, well, of course Biblical pre-dates building of Christian Churches in UK.... by quite a long way..... But that wont stop me questioning if the saying has more than one source, from different area's. Not all of UK was Christian when stone buildings were started. In fact, saying that, the builders of Egypt (Pre-Christian) also put their makers mark on the stones.... Is it entirely possible that the phrase pre-dates Christianity. Is it even possible that the Christianity "Writers" took the phrase commonly used by stone masons and used that to create the story of the tablets, and now that they were "Written in the stone", they should be adopted as seriously as anything else they took as important that had been previously written in the stone........... I ask this because I can see a certain worrying thought process that almost agrees with Creationists that the Bible was the beginning of history and nothing important happened before that..... Many of the words phrases and common belief structures included in the Bible were common before it was written. I therefore propose that it is not that the phrase was stolen from a biblical reference, but it was stolen by the bible from Stone masons, who we have proof existed before the bible..... Again, this is only a loose theory, I dont have concrete or even chipped stone proof evidence, but for me, it makes sense that is something was Written in the Stone and therefore "Important" before the time of Christ, perhaps they would include that "Its important" phraseology in the actual writings that became the bible. Remembering that the Bible is a loose collection of stories that were edited into what we know today many years after Christ passed. However, stone being important, we have the evidence from ancient Egypt, the deliberate defacing of Statues, and deliberate destruction of hieroglyphics, as one Ruler took over from the last, they would remove common references to their ancestors who they may disagree with. Be that personal or ideologically, or even political views. One Egyptian king decided on the "One God" way, and after his death, all that was reversed, he was extremely unpopular for, that, who did he think he was cancelling out Gods?... I "Think" its this one.... Akhenaten (Amenhotep IV)In return, after his own death, Much of his work was destroyed to remove it from history... statues were defaced.... stone hieroglyphs removed/destroyed.... Cross threading here, but I learned much of this from finding some intelligence on the Discovery Network.... Then googled for more info. Maybe there are intelligent program makers out there?...
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 28, 2014 10:27:15 GMT
We think of the bible, as we do most religious texts, as being, well religious texts written to contain wisdom. (This is regardless of how much 'truth' you may or may not think they contain.) Because of this we regard the structure of the writing as being normal for such types of book.
What we forget is that the original texts were, like Shakespeare's plays, written (or translated) to appeal and get their message across to the people who existed at the time the text was written. So the language and analogies used are those that the intended audience would be able to understand because they were things that they had some knowledge of. This is why 'sheep' and 'shepherds' are mentioned so often in the bible along with fishermen - The listeners might not have done those jobs but they would have been familiar with them.
In the case of a writing. The first known writing comes from Mesopotamia (which incidentally appears to have given us a lot of the old testament in one form or another, As a some of the stories in the Old Testament seem to be basically similar to those that appear in the earlier religions of that area). The writing was a basic form of cuneiform, simple marks that were pressed into clay often it seems to indicate what was within a container, or to keep track of goods and business arrangements.
In this light there was probably some version of 'written in stone' around since the earliest writing. The meaning, maybe somewhat unusually, being the same back then as it is now; it indicates permanence, since stone lasts longer (and is harder to destroy) than clay tablets let alone papyrus or paper.
Even though most of the audience the bible was aiming for probably didn't write on clay or stone - if they could write at all which is doubtful, they would likewise have known the saying and hence got the message on a subliminal level. Gods commandments were written on stone tablets because they were intended to be permanent.
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Post by the light works on Aug 28, 2014 14:51:35 GMT
We think of the bible, as we do most religious texts, as being, well religious texts written to contain wisdom. (This is regardless of how much 'truth' you may or may not think they contain.) Because of this we regard the structure of the writing as being normal for such types of book. What we forget is that the original texts were, like Shakespeare's plays, written (or translated) to appeal and get their message across to the people who existed at the time the text was written. So the language and analogies used are those that the intended audience would be able to understand because they were things that they had some knowledge of. This is why 'sheep' and 'shepherds' are mentioned so often in the bible along with fishermen - The listeners might not have done those jobs but they would have been familiar with them. In the case of a writing. The first known writing comes from Mesopotamia (which incidentally appears to have given us a lot of the old testament in one form or another, As a some of the stories in the Old Testament seem to be basically similar to those that appear in the earlier religions of that area). The writing was a basic form of cuneiform, simple marks that were pressed into clay often it seems to indicate what was within a container, or to keep track of goods and business arrangements. In this light there was probably some version of 'written in stone' around since the earliest writing. The meaning, maybe somewhat unusually, being the same back then as it is now; it indicates permanence, since stone lasts longer (and is harder to destroy) than clay tablets let alone papyrus or paper. Even though most of the audience the bible was aiming for probably didn't write on clay or stone - if they could write at all which is doubtful, they would likewise have known the saying and hence got the message on a subliminal level. Gods commandments were written on stone tablets because they were intended to be permanent. and while the bible was not published as a codified text until long after masonry was a career option, the text was based on more historical documents in various forms - and more modern editions are carefully referenced back to the oldest known documents; which are not in short supply. and keep in mind that as far as the Egyptians being around before the bible was printed as a document - most of the crews building the pyramids did not draw paychecks.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 29, 2014 9:06:02 GMT
There is evidence to support they did.... or it was done it return for other values. The Stone masons did get paid. The rest, maybe a bit of National Service, some were slaves, but many did get paid...
It has been suggested by people who do the maths that the people doing the building were mostly farmers, and the pyramid building done "Out of growing season", along with most of their temples, as they had to be farmers to grow enough food to support the masses that were doing the building?... Those farmers were possibly "Tenant" farmers, who paid their rent by sending so many of their workers to do temple structure or tomb building whilst the growing land was flooded or during winter.
When you hear it it kind of makes sense?
But we get away from Castle walls here.
And going back to the top of the page, I agree with the idea, the only way to find out the validity of how strong a wall is is test it to destruction.... Old Moses, or other larger bore cannon....
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