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Post by the light works on Aug 29, 2014 14:48:12 GMT
There is evidence to support they did.... or it was done it return for other values. The Stone masons did get paid. The rest, maybe a bit of National Service, some were slaves, but many did get paid... It has been suggested by people who do the maths that the people doing the building were mostly farmers, and the pyramid building done "Out of growing season", along with most of their temples, as they had to be farmers to grow enough food to support the masses that were doing the building?... Those farmers were possibly "Tenant" farmers, who paid their rent by sending so many of their workers to do temple structure or tomb building whilst the growing land was flooded or during winter. When you hear it it kind of makes sense? But we get away from Castle walls here. And going back to the top of the page, I agree with the idea, the only way to find out the validity of how strong a wall is is test it to destruction.... Old Moses, or other larger bore cannon.... they've made a battering ram, before... the challenge I see here is in building their wall sections. will small scale react the same as large scale, and how many stonemasons are they going to have to hire to build their wall right? if they did small scale testing, they could make a trip-hammer to give them a consistent impact. |
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 29, 2014 14:56:11 GMT
I guess you could construct two walls one made of solid cinder blocks, one of the same thickness but with a rubble filled space see if there is any signs of a difference, then if that test shows any promise go on to the expense of building a more accurate simulation of a period castle wall? Or would the cinder clocks be too weak, would you need something more like concrete pavers?
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 29, 2014 15:12:09 GMT
I'd say build a trebucket rather than use a cannon, but that may not be viable as they could be a little to erratic and hard to set up to fire again. (It would also increase build time, which when added to the construction of the wall itself may make it impractical). Maybe an air cannon would be more suitable, it is something that they might be able to build in a day or so from equipment sitting in the shop and the muzzle velocity would probably be closer to a trebucket than any cannon.
Build wise I don't think the wall would prove that difficult. Thick stone blocks could be picked up from a garden center or building supply company. Not as thick as a real castle wall, but then I somehow doubt they would be able to use full-sized stones to throw/fire at the wall anyway. The central filling would also pose no problem, and probably wouldn't cost them anything. Why? Because they could film this in the quarry where there would be more than enough rubble around for their needs.
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Post by the light works on Aug 29, 2014 15:26:52 GMT
I'd say build a trebucket rather than use a cannon, but that may not be viable as they could be a little to erratic and hard to set up to fire again. (It would also increase build time, which when added to the construction of the wall itself may make it impractical). Maybe an air cannon would be more suitable, it is something that they might be able to build in a day or so from equipment sitting in the shop and the muzzle velocity would probably be closer to a trebucket than any cannon. Build wise I don't think the wall would prove that difficult. Thick stone blocks could be picked up from a garden center or building supply company. Not as thick as a real castle wall, but then I somehow doubt they would be able to use full-sized stones to throw/fire at the wall anyway. The central filling would also pose no problem, and probably wouldn't cost them anything. Why? Because they could film this in the quarry where there would be more than enough rubble around for their needs. next great Adam quote: "I'm sorry we shot your house with a trebuchet" not that I don't believe Adam could have a trebuchet on the mythbusters lot within 24 hours - because he seems like the kind of guy who either already has one, or knows someone who has one. but my argument for using a trip hammer is that it is under control at all times, very consistent in force, and relatively rapid cycling. OTOH, didn't they already use a "hurricane gun" on an episode in the past? that was pretty quick and consistent. personally, I suspect the rubble wall design was selected because it was faster than making a solid stone wall; but whether it gives a significant advantage or disadvantage over a solid (by which I mean built with fitted stones through the entire thickness of it) wall, I am curious. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 29, 2014 15:30:24 GMT
I'm thinking of an air-cannon/mortar in terms of large scale testing rather than for small scale. It would be safer, easier to control and faster to reset than a trebucket.
Oh, and a lot smaller and easier to transport to the testing site.
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Post by the light works on Aug 29, 2014 15:40:44 GMT
I'm thinking of an air-cannon/mortar in terms of large scale testing rather than for small scale. It would be safer, easier to control and faster to reset than a trebucket. Oh, and a lot smaller and easier to transport to the testing site. my plan was to build mine to be the right size to carry on the trailer for my catamaran. I also planned to use people for the counterweight to speed assembly and reset. (and it would probably make for a fun ride) |
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 31, 2014 9:59:22 GMT
Proof of concept is enough, exact building to period, is that needed?...
Easy build brick walls, or even concrete breeze block, build one straight, build one double-skin and rubble filling, build another set with bed-liner paint even.
What would be ideal is of the first shot on single skin causes catastrophic failure, thus showing the fragility of the build, then the second shot on double skin with rubble just bounced off?... (Maybe dents, but not a failure of wall?..)
At that point reference the extra strength of stone build and how strong the double skin with rubble must be.
No two shots on the same wall will hit the same point, and that is partially the strength of the wall construction, it will take minor damage and still be a wall....
Of course concentrated fire will cause a failure, but if the opposition brings that kind of fire-power, you are in a whole heap of three headed giant and running away....
I would say bring it on, as Grant may work up some electro-mechanical re-loading system, but as he isnt with us?...
Ok, so Jamie and Adam could build a mechanical winch to reload the system, but firing a bag of rocks at a wall, why not?...
Bring 'em all, see what does the most damage.
See what eventually can bring down the walls.
"You are going to need a bigger chicken cannon"...... now thats one line I want to hear?....
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 31, 2014 10:58:33 GMT
'Lets design a winch' sounds great if you are not being asked to do so in a week while designing and building everything else needed - they don't have a horde of people milling around helping them. Its more or less two to *maybe* four or five people having to do all the work.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 31, 2014 11:11:38 GMT
How easy is it to just chuck a battery powered electric drill on the frame, to winch the arm back over..........
Move hook up and down the arm until you get a good power to speed ratio, law of levers....
Part of my skills is keeping it simple, was the above suggestion just me, or could anyone see that idea?...
In case of repeated use, small generator and mains power drill, or a stack of replacement batteries.
I just come up with the ideas.... a sort of half a !Q! but with less budget.....
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Post by the light works on Aug 31, 2014 14:56:24 GMT
Proof of concept is enough, exact building to period, is that needed?... Easy build brick walls, or even concrete breeze block, build one straight, build one double-skin and rubble filling, build another set with bed-liner paint even. What would be ideal is of the first shot on single skin causes catastrophic failure, thus showing the fragility of the build, then the second shot on double skin with rubble just bounced off?... (Maybe dents, but not a failure of wall?..) At that point reference the extra strength of stone build and how strong the double skin with rubble must be. No two shots on the same wall will hit the same point, and that is partially the strength of the wall construction, it will take minor damage and still be a wall.... Of course concentrated fire will cause a failure, but if the opposition brings that kind of fire-power, you are in a whole heap of three headed giant and running away.... I would say bring it on, as Grant may work up some electro-mechanical re-loading system, but as he isnt with us?... Ok, so Jamie and Adam could build a mechanical winch to reload the system, but firing a bag of rocks at a wall, why not?... Bring 'em all, see what does the most damage. See what eventually can bring down the walls. "You are going to need a bigger chicken cannon"...... now thats one line I want to hear?.... no, one full thickness built, and the other double skin with rubble fill. otherwise you are putting a thick wall up against a thin wall. and yes, you will be hitting repeatedly in the same general area, unless, as you suspect, one wall suffers immediate catastrophic failure - in which case the mason or designer will both get burned at the stake - assuming they survived the battle. as for "could build a mechanical winch" - that's a little like saying Jamie could make himself a white shirt to wear. the trebuchet is an episode in and of itself - and they really need something more consistent. I'm thinking for cinder block scale, an air gun on the scale of the tornado gun is about right. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 31, 2014 15:37:19 GMT
It just occurred to me that if we did this with wooden blocks and baseballs with a water balloon launcher, we could put this in a think of the kids category. - it might be a challenge to get the inventory of scrap lumber - but I would bet there are dozens of construction contractors who would be happy to contribute.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 1, 2014 7:22:12 GMT
Why spoil a good myth just because there are kids about.
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Post by the light works on Sept 1, 2014 12:08:16 GMT
Why spoil a good myth just because there are kids about. if it makes the difference between doing something and doing nothing - I favor something. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 1, 2014 15:10:31 GMT
Awkward.....
I agree.
But begrudgingly.
Having got a tribe, let it be noted, I am not anti-Kid.
I am just anti-dumbing-down....
One of mine has 8 "A" grades and above, is now doing HND's and A-Levels at the same time, is University bound, and may serve his time in the forces, especially if they wish to sponsor him through his chosen engineering degree....
Another has passed all exams in various shades of above average, is now entering into Design work in Computer Graphics for Games, again to "A" level standard
Another is projected as somewhere in the same ball park as their two elders when they take exams soon...
All are above my initial school leaving levels, I got most of my Education after I left school.
I am now time-served with the dora-the-should-be-shot, and the big purple target dinosaurs, and I dont want to go back there....... it was intellectually painful to be that dumb.
I am saying Mythbusters does Sesame street will get me running away screaming?....
I did all that with my kids already, not again, please?...
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Post by the light works on Sept 1, 2014 15:39:13 GMT
Awkward..... I agree. But begrudgingly. Having got a tribe, let it be noted, I am not anti-Kid. I am just anti-dumbing-down.... One of mine has 8 "A" grades and above, is now doing HND's and A-Levels at the same time, is University bound, and may serve his time in the forces, especially if they wish to sponsor him through his chosen engineering degree.... Another has passed all exams in various shades of above average, is now entering into Design work in Computer Graphics for Games, again to "A" level standard Another is projected as somewhere in the same ball park as their two elders when they take exams soon... All are above my initial school leaving levels, I got most of my Education after I left school. I am now time-served with the dora-the-should-be-shot, and the big purple target dinosaurs, and I dont want to go back there....... it was intellectually painful to be that dumb. I am saying Mythbusters does Sesame street will get me running away screaming?.... I did all that with my kids already, not again, please?... didn't say sesame street version - just the version using lumber ends and baseballs - to make it relatively safe and easy for a crew of kids to build the walls and then knock them down to see which design can take more punishment. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 1, 2014 16:34:46 GMT
Wooden blocks are hardly going to be a problem. They can pluck out a couple of thick wooden planks from the M5 stores and cut them into smaller blocks. Construction wise, I guess that they could use play-do (or similar) as mortar and set the bottom few blocks between small wooden rails (to prevent the entire wall from falling over when hit).
I'm not entirely sure if this would really be suitable for a kids show, not because there is anything wrong with the idea or any safety concerns. Rather I suspect that there would be problems in regards making it look interesting for TV. It might be a viable way to do some small scale testing, with the major limitation being that wood does not react the same way as stone if hit which might limit how useful any small scale results are. But it might be a nice cheap way to test out a small scale design of the throwing device/equipment, so they can work out what options they have in that regard.
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Post by the light works on Sept 1, 2014 16:42:09 GMT
Wooden blocks are hardly going to be a problem. They can pluck out a couple of thick wooden planks from the M5 stores and cut them into smaller blocks. Construction wise, I guess that they could use play-do (or similar) as mortar and set the bottom few blocks between small wooden rails (to prevent the entire wall from falling over when hit). I'm not entirely sure if this would really be suitable for a kids show, not because there is anything wrong with the idea or any safety concerns. Rather I suspect that there would be problems in regards making it look interesting for TV. It might be a viable way to do some small scale testing, with the major limitation being that wood does not react the same way as stone if hit which might limit how useful any small scale results are. But it might be a nice cheap way to test out a small scale design of the throwing device/equipment, so they can work out what options they have in that regard. I was thinking more along the lines of having a couple construction contractors dump a truckload or two of scrap lumber for building material, and build walls 4 or 5 feet tall. I like the idea of making a support frame for the wall - that would allow you to build smaller wall sections without the issue of the wall simply being tipped over. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 1, 2014 17:12:10 GMT
No need to waste money when it would be cheaper and simpler to just use what they already have available in the shop. In this case it would mean that they would be able to make all the uniform sized blocks they could need in an hour or two. Instead of having to sort through a pile of material that is not uniform in size or quality to find what they can use first.
Keep in mind that they have two weeks to do a segment, half of which is build related, and only two people (Adam and Jamie) to do the building. Yes, M5 does employ more than two people but they are not there to work on the show but do other things. So anything that can speed up and simplify a build is highly desirable - Especially in a case like this when you are talking about ultimately having to build a decent sized stone wall (or more likely two or three*) as well as a 'siege' engine of some description. This is also why using an air cannon might be a much more practical option than attempting to make a trebucket, it is something that they already have components to build and experience with so could knock one together in a day or so. Plus they have a small scale version sitting around for smaller scale tests.
The alternative is attempting to build a siege engine, three walls plus small scale versions of both in a week or so. That's a lot of work for two guys and too much risk of falling behind schedule if there are any delays.
(*Three walls; single thickness, double thickness with no gap and double layered with the gap between the walls)
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Post by the light works on Sept 1, 2014 18:27:59 GMT
No need to waste money when it would be cheaper and simpler to just use what they already have available in the shop. In this case it would mean that they would be able to make all the uniform sized blocks they could need in an hour or two. Instead of having to sort through a pile of material that is not uniform in size or quality to find what they can use first. Keep in mind that they have two weeks to do a segment, half of which is build related, and only two people (Adam and Jamie) to do the building. Yes, M5 does employ more than two people but they are not there to work on the show but do other things. So anything that can speed up and simplify a build is highly desirable - Especially in a case like this when you are talking about ultimately having to build a decent sized stone wall (or more likely two or three*) as well as a 'siege' engine of some description. This is also why using an air cannon might be a much more practical option than attempting to make a trebucket, it is something that they already have components to build and experience with so could knock one together in a day or so. Plus they have a small scale version sitting around for smaller scale tests. The alternative is attempting to build a siege engine, three walls plus small scale versions of both in a week or so. That's a lot of work for two guys and too much risk of falling behind schedule if there are any delays. (*Three walls; single thickness, double thickness with no gap and double layered with the gap between the walls) you think construction contractors get paid to dump their construction scraps? this is the scenario I have in mind: 1: construction contractors take advantage of the opportunity to get rid of wood scraps for free. 2: test wall segments are built using economical child labor 3: video of kids shooting at walls with a giant slingshot (which I am sure Adam has one of) makes good TV and good entertainment for the kids. much simplified, of course. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 1, 2014 21:36:00 GMT
1; Such scraps will not be uniform in shape, size or type of wood - and possibly even condition. So they would have to be sorted, that's at least a days worth of work. Compared to an hour or two to use wooden beams they already have in the shop or can buy in bulk and just cut them to the desired length. The other dimensions will be uniform, in turn making them easier to work with.
2; IF this was part of a kids special then yes, getting the kids to build the small scale walls and run those tests is a viable option. In fact that would be interesting for the kids, and you could also get the kids to dream up ideas for other possible wall designs and test those. However as I noted there is a limit to how long they would be allowed to work with the kids each day, which means that you want to remove anything that will eat into that time - hence making their own wooden 'bricks' from planks in the shop. (Heck, they could give the blocks to the kids or auction them off on Ebay for charity afterwards)
The main problem with wall building is that kids show or not the 'full-sized' walls are going to take a while to put up. Best not to waste time early on, but keep things as simple as possible.
3; A slingshot might actually be a viable alternative to an air cannon. Small scale testing in this case might allow them to make an educated guess as to what type of 'siege' engine best duplicates the trajectory and power of a trebucket. A basic slingshot is something that that could put together in half an hour or so using surgical tubing and a couple of poles. It is also possible that they *might* be able to make a small trebuchet* to compare slingshots and air cannons against in that regard.
(*It isn't that a trebucket is all that hard to make, rather that it would be a very major build with too much potential for things to go wrong - ie it breaks. A smaller one however does strike me as something MB could put together in shop fairly quickly and easily - said as someone who wouldn't have to do so. Even if they decided that they could either borrow or build a trebuchet for the full(ish) scale tests they would probably want a backup just in case. While you might think 'cannon' this would actually be limiting since they would be restricted to the quarry. It might, production wise, be better NOT to use a cannon as they would then have more options as to where they could do the tests. None of the alternatives are going to throw shot over a mile that could then skip over the ground.)
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