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Post by silverdragon on Sept 7, 2014 8:45:51 GMT
Learning to Drive.
What could possibly go wrong.....
I have a kid "Of age" who is decidedly "Well I have done Forza, (X-Box game) so I can drive"
Yes they have watched me.
So I dedicate this thread to any other possible "Myths" you can come up with on learning to drive.
It IS a myth, no way can a video game teach you how to control a vehicle.
Some of my own thoughts to start with....
I have stated because I have advanced licences, I am NOT available as a driving instructor....
That would be a bad idea, me teaching them bad habits?... or is that bogus as well?...
So, initial Driving instructor, is it better a member of the family who can drive, and has done for years, someone who passed their test recently so knows "What they are looking for", a proper driving instructor (Of course?..) or someone else?...
In the basic CBT bike equivalent wobble round a car park, not on open roads, just basic clutch brake and accelerator 1st gear dont hit the bollards stuff, I dont think you need an expensive driving instructor.
Just someone who has the patience (also not me!) and ability to do such.
But Mum or Dad, Older sibling, Other member of the family?....
And then, Manual or Automatic.
An Automatic licence in UK is prohibitive, its stops you driving Manual, so is bloomin' useless as the majority of UK cars are Manual......
But other countries?...
Is the auto licence too easy?.. should they force you to do at least a certain time in a Manual?.. will it make you a better driver?.. or is this thing that Auto licences are not a "Proper" licence a Myth?...
Of course, for those with disabilities who cant drive anything else but adapted, this is exempt.
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Post by the light works on Sept 7, 2014 15:46:04 GMT
The sequence I went through was initial training with a school driving instructor (at the time the school provided behind the wheel training at a nominal cost) then follow up with a qualified family member supervising additional practice. - in this, keep in mind I had been driving small tractors for 8 years and moved up to the backhoe a couple years before. - I think I had an hour with the professional instructor before I started driving with my father - and a couple hours with my father before I started driving with my mother. - and at least one loaded trip with the pickup before I started towing the trailer.
as for manual vs auto - I say first drive in an automatic to get the "don't hit the bollards" part under control - then go to a heavy manual, and finally a light manual. (heavy manuals are much more forgiving so you have more time to shift.)
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Post by kharnynb on Sept 8, 2014 4:55:58 GMT
I would say proper instructor all the way, since they have a vested interest in not teaching you wrong stuff and they have no reason to either like or dislike you (too much). Always learn manual, the sooner the better, clutch control is something that should be soonest learned as a muscle memory thing. Drive with automatic after you get your license if you want, it's nothing different than manual except keep your hands of the shifter  . I would say that there should not be a "sunshine and bright weather only" driving instruction. Over here they solve that by having simulators for night and bad weather. Anyone should go on slippery track courses for a day, it just is too useful to know what happens instead of just knowing the theory. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 8, 2014 5:16:34 GMT
I would say proper instructor all the way, since they have a vested interest in not teaching you wrong stuff and they have no reason to either like or dislike you (too much). Always learn manual, the sooner the better, clutch control is something that should be soonest learned as a muscle memory thing. Drive with automatic after you get your license if you want, it's nothing different than manual except keep your hands of the shifter . I would say that there should not be a "sunshine and bright weather only" driving instruction. Over here they solve that by having simulators for night and bad weather. Anyone should go on slippery track courses for a day, it just is too useful to know what happens instead of just knowing the theory. for fire apparatus, in my district, there has to be 10 hours of daytime and 10 hours of nighttime driving before you can be checked off to drive unsupervised. - as well as 10 code three runs. for class 1 and (if it is still the same) 3 code runs for each driving class after that. (class 1 is pickup based, class 2 is heavy single axle, class 3 is tandem axle, class 4 is aerial, and class 5 is specialty apparatus - which must be signed off individually and have their own drive time requirements. class 6 drivers are assumed to be able to drive anything. (there are 3: the mechanics, and my dad) |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 8, 2014 7:55:46 GMT
Good suggestions, I also agree Night driving is a mandatory MUST for before you take your test.
I also agree a day on the skid pan teaches you more than a week on the road.
Its as one friend once said, its knowing what to do when its not doing what it should....
I have never found any reason to doubt that sentence.
And yes, I have learnt more under dubious control than theorising about it?...
I say dubious control, is doing a four wheel "Drift" round a corner on ice under total control or not?...
It wasn't my intent to drift, but once with it, go with it, control the drift and bring it back...
"Gently"
Bad weather driving, Rain is a minimum must, unless your climate is prohibitive of that, winter driving, I suggest that no person be allowed to take a test until they have had winter driving experience, and no, skid pan is no substitute, having to defrost a vehicle before use is experience you should have, as well as snow ice and other severe weather conditions.
I also question the ability to go from say a Nissan leaf hybrid learner to a Sports car in one jump.
I suggest a staggered Car licence that puts the need to learn power before you use it?...
Taking a raw learner and giving them an Aventador (Lambo), well, is that ever going to end well?....
Or is that just a Myth.
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Post by the light works on Sept 8, 2014 14:37:29 GMT
Good suggestions, I also agree Night driving is a mandatory MUST for before you take your test. I also agree a day on the skid pan teaches you more than a week on the road. Its as one friend once said, its knowing what to do when its not doing what it should.... I have never found any reason to doubt that sentence. And yes, I have learnt more under dubious control than theorising about it?... I say dubious control, is doing a four wheel "Drift" round a corner on ice under total control or not?... It wasn't my intent to drift, but once with it, go with it, control the drift and bring it back... " Gently" Bad weather driving, Rain is a minimum must, unless your climate is prohibitive of that, winter driving, I suggest that no person be allowed to take a test until they have had winter driving experience, and no, skid pan is no substitute, having to defrost a vehicle before use is experience you should have, as well as snow ice and other severe weather conditions. I also question the ability to go from say a Nissan leaf hybrid learner to a Sports car in one jump. I suggest a staggered Car licence that puts the need to learn power before you use it?... Taking a raw learner and giving them an Aventador (Lambo), well, is that ever going to end well?.... Or is that just a Myth. it will end well for the youtube watching public... at least the parts with good google-fu. I was impressed at how hard it was to find a video that had both a significant crash, and video of the actual crash. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 9, 2014 8:51:08 GMT
I have seen that video as part of many compilations.
Its a case of MUCH power exceeding IQ and ability.
The first thing I had to learn on my Ducati was throttle control... not on/off, but roll it on progressively.
Ducati have the ability to raise the front wheel in many of the lower gears as you go through, so you learn how to roll the throttle as you go, and keep the front wheel below head height?....
Raw learners that have had experience of a 1,000 cc nissan "Micra" (Do you get them in other countries?) will have exactly zero experience of acceleration with a LOT of power.
You go from less than 100 horse to 500plus, its a hell of a different car to drive?....
Remembering I play with close on 1,000 horses daily, power corrupts.
As in, I have to remember when I am Solo (Bobtail) I have to use higher gears and gentle on the throttle when I drive anywhere....otherwise I rip up tarmac.....
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Post by kharnynb on Sept 9, 2014 18:47:56 GMT
Biggest i drive and have driven hp wise is a subaru wrx at 300 hp, heavy, but nothing quite as temperamental as a supercar.
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Post by wvengineer on Sept 9, 2014 19:55:30 GMT
One advantage to learning to drive a manual is that in order to be able to even get out on the roads, you need to spend a lot more time on the practice track. By the time you understand how to operate a clutch, you have a much better feel for controlling the car than you do with an auto.
Once the are confidant to control the car on back roads, I would suggest a lot of rural back roads for the next step. That will give you time to practice handing and reacting to different types of roads with varying terrain and how to control the car accordingly, with minimal traffic. Once they can handle backwood roads, than you can look at city driving.
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Post by the light works on Sept 9, 2014 22:43:26 GMT
I would hazard a guess my Jeep is around 350. truck is rated for 360, and most of the fire engines are between 350 and 400. - of course, those are all heavy enough that you can get away with treating the throttle like an on/off switch.
not sure what the acura was rated at, but on damp pavement, I had to think about not spinning the tires up to third gear.
of course, out of those, the touchy one is the Jeep - because it isn't a sports car.
my training went from (us version) Ford Escort, Jeep Wagoneer (the original sport utility wagon), GMC 1-ton pickup (4-speed)
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Post by c64 on Sept 21, 2014 19:20:35 GMT
I have a kid "Of age" who is decidedly "Well I have done Forza, (X-Box game) so I can drive" Yes they have watched me. My nice had learned to drive very good with a Playstation3 when she was 3½ years old. She has an RC Semi truck she can drive in reverse all the time and parallel park it. At the carnival, she is very good at driving a bumper car, the version where you have a simulated road instead of open space. Since she is 5 years old she drives her electric trike very well and this one isn't "toddler slow", I have upgraded it and installed an RC kill switch. I'd bet she could drive a real car with automatic transmission just fine. But I highly doubt that she could learn more than the very most essential traffic rules and especially driving in traffic with other cars! |
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 22, 2014 20:07:22 GMT
One advantage to learning to drive a manual is that in order to be able to even get out on the roads, you need to spend a lot more time on the practice track. By the time you understand how to operate a clutch, you have a much better feel for controlling the car than you do with an auto. AMEN! It's so much harder to make the switch from automatic to manual than the other way around, so learning the manual first is what makes the most sense. And like you say, it gives you a much better feel for what the car is actually doing and prepares you better for all those situations where one hand leaves the wheel. I've seen a lot of young drivers who've only driven automatics start to veer off to one side when they're adjusting their radio or whatever they're doing. They're not used to taking that hand off the wheel and trying to keep it straight. The biggest problem with going from manual to automatic is remembering there's no clutch and not stomping on the brakes when you go to "change gears", but that only takes anywhere from a couple of minutes to a couple of hours to get used to, depending on how experienced a driver you are. Took me about ten minutes to initially get the hang of it when I first made the switch and another couple of "oops, I forgot!" hard brakes over the next half hour, but from then it was a smooth run and I've never had the problem since, even though I've never owned an automatic myself. |
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Post by c64 on Sept 23, 2014 18:16:50 GMT
The biggest problem with going from manual to automatic is remembering there's no clutch and not stomping on the brakes when you go to "change gears", but that only takes anywhere from a couple of minutes to a couple of hours to get used to, depending on how experienced a driver you are. This can be fixed in 5 seconds - or whatever it takes to take your left shoe off. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 23, 2014 20:40:37 GMT
The other side of the question is I definitely learned to shift gears from watching my father. my large vehicle shifting cadence (which he drives) is very different from my small vehicle cadence. the large vehicle cadence almost perfectly matches his.
I still favor getting the basics of steering and braking before learning the gearshift. I also am not wholly committed to the "both hands on the wheel in prescribed positions at all times" school of thought. I favor a more adaptive approach - starting with both hands simply because it balances the wheel better, but certainly besides being aware of the airbag, use a hand position which is comfortable and allows you plenty of range of movement. both hands in a deathgrip on the wheel tends to lead to twitchy driving.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 24, 2014 8:40:17 GMT
I have not driven an automatic car (more than about a mile) for the last 10 years.
I do not drive Automatic by choice.
And we just dont have them in huge quantities over here....
We prefer Manual control.
Semi-Auto trucks are different....
But Cars?... the last time I tried, I kicked a hole in the carpet where the clutch should be.
It was awful.. its automatic response for me to want a Manual gear change....
I suppose its like trying to walk with three legs?....
I have always been used to Manual, Auto is "Foreign" feeling, and when I had to take an automatic van out for a day, I remember well how bad it was , and how much I couldnt wait to get my own vehicle back.
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Post by the light works on Sept 24, 2014 13:40:48 GMT
I have not driven an automatic car (more than about a mile) for the last 10 years. I do not drive Automatic by choice. And we just dont have them in huge quantities over here.... We prefer Manual control. Semi-Auto trucks are different.... But Cars?... the last time I tried, I kicked a hole in the carpet where the clutch should be. It was awful.. its automatic response for me to want a Manual gear change.... I suppose its like trying to walk with three legs?.... I have always been used to Manual, Auto is "Foreign" feeling, and when I had to take an automatic van out for a day, I remember well how bad it was , and how much I couldnt wait to get my own vehicle back. keep in mind, our auto is your semi-auto. - but it does depend on the quality of the transmission - you never want a US made Ford Escort with an automatic, for example. |
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Post by kharnynb on Sept 24, 2014 17:54:47 GMT
we have both types, or combined ones, generally full auto's do have gear shift function, but it's rather pointless.
Semi auto's tend to have race-car gear shifters
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Post by the light works on Sept 24, 2014 18:08:24 GMT
we have both types, or combined ones, generally full auto's do have gear shift function, but it's rather pointless. Semi auto's tend to have race-car gear shifters their full autos apparently have ONLY forward and reverse with no option to limit the top gear it will shift to. |
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Post by kharnynb on Sept 24, 2014 18:53:43 GMT
depends on the brand, french auto's have a hard time giving up control....
Audi's are pretty decent.
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Post by the light works on Sept 24, 2014 19:13:38 GMT
depends on the brand, french auto's have a hard time giving up control.... Audi's are pretty decent. I find it odd that a french car would not surrender.  |
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