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Post by silverdragon on Oct 14, 2014 8:43:35 GMT
LONG term myths...... As TLW suggested, there are myths that may take a while to test..... Right, I have a few. How long will a balance beam holding a weight stay viable. So trying to test a huge "Dod" of wood, like a railway sleeper, that is holding up a wall... that may take decades?...(At least.. I have seen wooden over-door mantles still here since 'Enery the 'Eighth's time....) Can you small-scale that, set it up summer one year and test summer the next, allowing a whole year of outside weathering, testing maybe a two-by-one, and see how much it bends in one year. Rope....what is the shelf life of rope. I have climbing rope I use for Garden as its well over 10 yrs old, will happily keep a tree to its stake, but I wouldnt trust it with my weight... If you took Hemp rope, or some other similar treated old school rope, and strength test it, then leave it under a little tension for a year, how much will it degrade?.... Talking of Tension... It has been discussed as a possible power source for a booby trap. If twisted rope, as sometimes used in Ballisters, is left under tension, how long will it stay viable?... If you tension a cross bow and add a bolt as a trap, how long before the wood or rope decay?.... Can you set one up and leave it for a year (Minus the bolt for safety reasons of course?...  )to test whet the pulling power in Lbs degradation is over that year?.... Anyone got anything else?.... |
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Post by the light works on Oct 14, 2014 16:05:44 GMT
LONG term myths...... As TLW suggested, there are myths that may take a while to test..... Right, I have a few. How long will a balance beam holding a weight stay viable. So trying to test a huge "Dod" of wood, like a railway sleeper, that is holding up a wall... that may take decades?...(At least.. I have seen wooden over-door mantles still here since 'Enery the 'Eighth's time....) Can you small-scale that, set it up summer one year and test summer the next, allowing a whole year of outside weathering, testing maybe a two-by-one, and see how much it bends in one year. Rope....what is the shelf life of rope. I have climbing rope I use for Garden as its well over 10 yrs old, will happily keep a tree to its stake, but I wouldnt trust it with my weight... If you took Hemp rope, or some other similar treated old school rope, and strength test it, then leave it under a little tension for a year, how much will it degrade?.... Talking of Tension... It has been discussed as a possible power source for a booby trap. If twisted rope, as sometimes used in Ballisters, is left under tension, how long will it stay viable?... If you tension a cross bow and add a bolt as a trap, how long before the wood or rope decay?.... Can you set one up and leave it for a year (Minus the bolt for safety reasons of course?... )to test whet the pulling power in Lbs degradation is over that year?.... Anyone got anything else?.... not just warpage, but also settling in. how much less sensitive will the balance beam be after the year? |
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 14, 2014 20:34:51 GMT
I don't think they plan that far ahead - the longest test they have ever conducted was only a few months, which is roughly the time needed to film a season of the show.
There are also practical (rather than production) issues. The number of possible variables, from damp conditions to arid, would mean that they would need a number of controlled environments. They simply don't have the space at M5 to set such areas up, and the costs of hiring such a facility for a year would be prohibitive.
Testing in San Fransisco itself would simply tell you how such materials degrade in that area...and with the weather conditions they have during that year. It would tell you nothing about, say, arid conditions in Egypt or conditions in an underground tomb. Materials will degrade based not just on the direct effects of climate, but also what insects, bacteria and fungi are around. For example, ships made from Oak can last for five years in Northern Europe without major issues. But in the warmer waters of the Caribbean the same ship would be lucky to still be afloat after a year or two. Likewise a wooden structure built in the Arctic circle can last for hundreds of years, where as the exact same building in the tropics might, if you are lucky, last a year or two.
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Post by the light works on Oct 14, 2014 20:50:10 GMT
I don't think they plan that far ahead - the longest test they have ever conducted was only a few months, which is roughly the time needed to film a season of the show. There are also practical (rather than production) issues. The number of possible variables, from damp conditions to arid, would mean that they would need a number of controlled environments. They simply don't have the space at M5 to set such areas up, and the costs of hiring such a facility for a year would be prohibitive. Testing in San Fransisco itself would simply tell you how such materials degrade in that area...and with the weather conditions they have during that year. It would tell you nothing about, say, arid conditions in Egypt or conditions in an underground tomb. Materials will degrade based not just on the direct effects of climate, but also what insects, bacteria and fungi are around. For example, ships made from Oak can last for five years in Northern Europe without major issues. But in the warmer waters of the Caribbean the same ship would be lucky to still be afloat after a year or two. Likewise a wooden structure built in the Arctic circle can last for hundreds of years, where as the exact same building in the tropics might, if you are lucky, last a year or two. there are definitely practical limitations to what sort of build they might do (if you missed the comment that inspired the topic, I said that they would set up the build this season and finish it in season 300) but they might also get the change to make a field trip episode out of the concept. - not that they could expect to be allowed to test ancient materials, but they could at least look at them. and a crossbow myth might work well for them - they could buy a dozen cheap crossbows, draw them all, and put them in storage. once a month, they could take one out, load it, and fire it into a target from a uniform distance. all of the shots could then be superimposed to make the comparison. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 15, 2014 0:06:10 GMT
Here is an interesting bit of trivia for you. You know the famous Terracotta army in China? Well the tomb those are part of actually has Indiana Jones style traps in it according to both local tradition and as far as can be ascertained from investigations in reality as well. Because of these traps the entire tomb has never been explored.
One of the known traps seems to be a number of crossbows...
In this case the crossbows would (presumably) be wood or bamboo with silk strings, and there is some debate as to if these traps (or most of them) would still pose a danger after all this time. Certainly there seems to be a line of thought that the crossbows might retain enough power to actually fire - not that anyone has volunteered to go check that out. Or the various other traps that are meant to be deeper in the tomb, which include sliding walls/ceilings and a large vat of mercury. (There is evidence that the mercury vat is real, as very high concentrations of mercury and mercury compounds have been discovered in the soil where the chamber in question is meant to be located. As to if any mercury remains is unknown)
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Post by the light works on Oct 15, 2014 1:17:42 GMT
Here is an interesting bit of trivia for you. You know the famous Terracotta army in China? Well the tomb those are part of actually has Indiana Jones style traps in it according to both local tradition and as far as can be ascertained from investigations in reality as well. Because of these traps the entire tomb has never been explored. One of the known traps seems to be a number of crossbows... In this case the crossbows would (presumably) be wood or bamboo with silk strings, and there is some debate as to if these traps (or most of them) would still pose a danger after all this time. Certainly there seems to be a line of thought that the crossbows might retain enough power to actually fire - not that anyone has volunteered to go check that out. Or the various other traps that are meant to be deeper in the tomb, which include sliding walls/ceilings and a large vat of mercury. (There is evidence that the mercury vat is real, as very high concentrations of mercury and mercury compounds have been discovered in the soil where the chamber in question is meant to be located. As to if any mercury remains is unknown) field trip! |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 15, 2014 8:52:39 GMT
If the mountain will not come to mohamed....
Can the team find some not so priceless old bits of rope etc from some archaeological find, under archaeological supervision, and do some tests.
Them archaeologists take samples of wood to dendrodate (Count rings) and do radio carbon dating, so they do do tests.....
So could a bit of for example the rope found on a ship wreck be found and tested for strength......
COULD an old crossbow be documented and tested to find out if it would still be viable.
Could ancient silk have a small sample taken and test if the material was a bow string how much strength would it have.
WE are assuming that the weapons would be cocked and ready to fire.....
But what if the mechanicals were able to load?... what if a heavy weight were set to draw the bow before it fired?....
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Post by the light works on Oct 15, 2014 19:22:18 GMT
perhaps they could also check myths about ancient construction. for example, people claim the egyptians were superior stonemasons based on the fact that you cannot slide a piece of paper between the stones of the pyramids.
my question would be whether A: that shows superior stonemasonry skills; and B: you can slide a piece of paper between modern dry set stonework.
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Post by the light works on Oct 15, 2014 19:30:11 GMT
If the mountain will not come to mohamed.... Can the team find some not so priceless old bits of rope etc from some archaeological find, under archaeological supervision, and do some tests. Them archaeologists take samples of wood to dendrodate (Count rings) and do radio carbon dating, so they do do tests..... So could a bit of for example the rope found on a ship wreck be found and tested for strength...... COULD an old crossbow be documented and tested to find out if it would still be viable. Could ancient silk have a small sample taken and test if the material was a bow string how much strength would it have. WE are assuming that the weapons would be cocked and ready to fire..... But what if the mechanicals were able to load?... what if a heavy weight were set to draw the bow before it fired?.... had to red that last bit a couple times before I realized what you were saying. my first read looked like you were suggesting a trsting method, rather than a trap that avoided having portions held under tension until it was actually triggered. there would certainly be more lag and more linkages involved. essentially, it would eliminate some failure points in favor of others - which may or may not be more durable. by which I mean to say I think it is a valid concept for exploration. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 15, 2014 21:19:56 GMT
There is no such thing as worthless archaeological material, especially where man-made objects and items comprised of organic materials are concerned.
Yes, samples of organic material from sites may be taken away for radio carbon dating. But these samples are very small and give archaeologists valuable information that allows them to make better sense of the site by being able to date material - and even then they think long and hard as to if they actually need to do this, and then what the smallest sample they can send off is. Asking them for a large sample you can test to destruction simply for mass entertainment would result in a no (followed by several choice words about your parentage and morals). If you actually went ahead anyway...well there would be a line of people standing outside your place of work waiting to knock your teeth out.
This is true of most places, but the US in particular. Here in Europe we have several thousand years of archaeology, in North America however the amount of archaeology is very small and heavily protected. This was highlighted on an episode of the British TV series Time Team some twenty years ago. The team went over to help excavate the first place the original European settlers landed. In the UK it would have been possible to excavate such a site, or at least excavate enough to get a reasonable idea as to what was there, in three days (which was what they did on the show throughout Europe). In the US however they were frustrated (if understanding) by the fact that their American counterparts worked at a much slower pace so as not to loose a single bit of historical evidence. In the UK you'd dig a trench and dump the soil to one side, in the US they put each and every shovel-full of dirt through three filters.
Keep in mind that there are maybe a dozen buildings (mainly pubs and houses) within five miles of where I live in the UK that are older than the United States of America. There are even a few that predate the discovery of North America.
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Post by the light works on Oct 15, 2014 21:38:35 GMT
There is no such thing as worthless archaeological material, especially where man-made objects and items comprised of organic materials are concerned. Yes, samples of organic material from sites may be taken away for radio carbon dating. But these samples are very small and give archaeologists valuable information that allows them to make better sense of the site by being able to date material - and even then they think long and hard as to if they actually need to do this, and then what the smallest sample they can send off is. Asking them for a large sample you can test to destruction simply for mass entertainment would result in a no (followed by several choice words about your parentage and morals). If you actually went ahead anyway...well there would be a line of people standing outside your place of work waiting to knock your teeth out. This is true of most places, but the US in particular. Here in Europe we have several thousand years of archaeology, in North America however the amount of archaeology is very small and heavily protected. This was highlighted on an episode of the British TV series Time Team some twenty years ago. The team went over to help excavate the first place the original European settlers landed. In the UK it would have been possible to excavate such a site, or at least excavate enough to get a reasonable idea as to what was there, in three days (which was what they did on the show throughout Europe). In the US however they were frustrated (if understanding) by the fact that their American counterparts worked at a much slower pace so as not to loose a single bit of historical evidence. In the UK you'd dig a trench and dump the soil to one side, in the US they put each and every shovel-full of dirt through three filters. Keep in mind that there are maybe a dozen buildings (mainly pubs and houses) within five miles of where I live in the UK that are older than the United States of America. There are even a few that predate the discovery of North America. which one? we also have buildings that predate Erikson's and Columbus' discoveries of the Americas. but you're right - our "ancient" is, for the most part, little over 200 years old, and most everything between that and prehistoric was relatively temporary in nature due to the indigenous population being mostly nomadic, and almost entirely not afflicted with an edifice complex. |
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Post by mrfatso on Oct 17, 2014 15:24:58 GMT
There is no such thing as worthless archaeological material, especially where man-made objects and items comprised of organic materials are concerned. Yes, samples of organic material from sites may be taken away for radio carbon dating. But these samples are very small and give archaeologists valuable information that allows them to make better sense of the site by being able to date material - and even then they think long and hard as to if they actually need to do this, and then what the smallest sample they can send off is. Asking them for a large sample you can test to destruction simply for mass entertainment would result in a no (followed by several choice words about your parentage and morals). If you actually went ahead anyway...well there would be a line of people standing outside your place of work waiting to knock your teeth out. This is true of most places, but the US in particular. Here in Europe we have several thousand years of archaeology, in North America however the amount of archaeology is very small and heavily protected. This was highlighted on an episode of the British TV series Time Team some twenty years ago. The team went over to help excavate the first place the original European settlers landed. In the UK it would have been possible to excavate such a site, or at least excavate enough to get a reasonable idea as to what was there, in three days (which was what they did on the show throughout Europe). In the US however they were frustrated (if understanding) by the fact that their American counterparts worked at a much slower pace so as not to loose a single bit of historical evidence. In the UK you'd dig a trench and dump the soil to one side, in the US they put each and every shovel-full of dirt through three filters. Keep in mind that there are maybe a dozen buildings (mainly pubs and houses) within five miles of where I live in the UK that are older than the United States of America. There are even a few that predate the discovery of North America. which one? we also have buildings that predate Erikson's and Columbus' discoveries of the Americas. but you're right - our "ancient" is, for the most part, little over 200 years old, and most everything between that and prehistoric was relatively temporary in nature due to the indigenous population being mostly nomadic, and almost entirely not afflicted with an edifice complex. There are Anglo Saxon Churches that go back as far as the 7th Century, that would predate Lief Erikson, probably the most common example of older building in the UK. Then there are buildings such the Scottish Islands that are quite ancient like the one. Knap of HowarFor older ropes, could it be possible to contact a tall ship that has some ropes that have seen several years service, compare those to new ropes and see how much they have detriated |
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Post by alabastersandman on Jul 28, 2015 8:23:11 GMT
If the mountain will not come to mohamed.... Can the team find some not so priceless old bits of rope etc from some archaeological find, under archaeological supervision, and do some tests. Them archaeologists take samples of wood to dendrodate (Count rings) and do radio carbon dating, so they do do tests..... So could a bit of for example the rope found on a ship wreck be found and tested for strength...... COULD an old crossbow be documented and tested to find out if it would still be viable. Could ancient silk have a small sample taken and test if the material was a bow string how much strength would it have. WE are assuming that the weapons would be cocked and ready to fire..... But what if the mechanicals were able to load?... what if a heavy weight were set to draw the bow before it fired?.... 2 And if it is found that no known material is capable of retaining elasticity for centuries… Come up with a method of causing the intruders to unwittingly trigger an “arming” of the crossbows as they pass through various halls and chambers. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 31, 2015 2:29:24 GMT
I found out a few weeks ago, that the raising of the Mary Rose, 'Enery the 8ths flagship, bought up a wealth of historical data, including a huge supply of Longbow.
So many were bought up, it was deemed as viable to test one or two to how strong the wood was.
As in, they recovered about 130 of them.
And were able to test one or two, and found that they had an estimated draw weight of 150lbs, and if they had broken one or two, due to the number of recovered, it would not have diminished that, because the knowledge would be that important.
They worked that out by looking at the bows and the arrow lengths they found, and working out what that would have taken to draw that arrow.
The wood was salt water preserved, so had to be treated to return it to ideal condition.
There are "Not many" original pieces from that time in existence, and no one is willing to test the ones from other sources because they are that rare.
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)to test whet the pulling power in Lbs degradation is over that year?....
