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Post by silverdragon on Nov 18, 2014 9:56:32 GMT
This needs looking into....
What, are they trying to "claim" America is theirs and the Americans invaded?....
Thats Cuba, its not America.
So make your mind up, North america, or South America...
North?.. now the last I heard, the Norse went a-viking, they founded Greenland, and some say they even went further...
Now, where did the Native Indians come from?.....
Try telling them they are all Muslim?.. I dont think they would like that would they?...
There is a hell of a lot of history in who found what, and who claimed it for who.
But this "Found America" I think is bunkum.....
They didnt find all of it did they?.. if they did, why aint they still there?....
I know, I know, History is written by the Winners....
Some are daft enough to say You is all ex-british stock, you is all had good reason to get away from the complete (censored) ijurts running this country...
Well yes, British land was a complete basket case at the time, but you aint ALL ex British.....
But that turk is trying to say the Cubans MUST, and thats a MUST must, build Mosques on Cuba....
Just what for?... deny your own faith and start with ours?.. that is all against my own religious tolerance, to demand people change faith.
So this is part Myth, part Politics, and part Religious tolerance....
So dismiss the Politics for a mo, forget the religion, and lets get with the Myth.
WHO discovered America first.
Myth has it Columbus stole a map from someone else who had quite a detailed map to be stolen.....
Myth has it that the Aztec region of South America had investigated North america, and some other not-aztec-but-of-the-same-period had moved that way, some say they are the origins of the Indian people.
Some say (as already mentioned) that the Norse found bits of North America.
But decided it was a bloody cold awfull place to live....
That was either Canada or Alaska type regions of todays world....
The Norse didnt like it so went Home.
So is this worth an investigate?...
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Post by mrfatso on Nov 18, 2014 15:24:37 GMT
There is a UNESCO World Hertitage site in Newfoundland Canaa that is recognised as Norse, and the first cross Atlanic settlement known to archeology, so certainly the Norse knew of North America. Some Historians claim that through Missionaries sent to the Norse the Catholic Church also knew of the Americas as well.
Here's a fact I learnt earlier this year at the British Museums Viking exhibit, the most common writing on coins found in Viking sites is an Arabic one bearing an inscription to Allah, the Vikings had trading relations that spread all over the place including there. It is possible that stories of their discovery of the Americas where heard there, and someone from the Muslim world travelled to see if it was true.
It is also possible however that Columbus was using Mosque as a short hand for a Non Christian, or infadell place of worship as he would have seen it, referring to a local temple structure of some kind. I do not know what the archeology is.
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Post by the light works on Nov 18, 2014 16:17:29 GMT
saying that Columbus stole a map and went to find America is completely at odds with the general consensus that Columbus thought the world was half as big as it actually is - sailed west to get to the east indies, and died still not comprehending that what he found was a different continent entirely.
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Post by GTCGreg on Nov 18, 2014 16:24:31 GMT
Seeing how there were people living here already when any of these so called "discoveries" were made, I would say none of them are valid as being the "first."
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Post by mrfatso on Nov 18, 2014 16:33:24 GMT
Seeing how there were people living here already when any of these so called "discoveries" were made, I would say none of them are valid as being the "first." I agree with that,, GTCGreg. However LTW, thinking the world was half as big as it was, and thinking he had discovered the East Indies, does not mean ip that he did not have a map,showing the east coast of the America in some form, which he presumed was the East Indeis. If you did not realise the existance of the Pacific Ocean, then there was only one great body of water on the planet and he had crossed it. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 18, 2014 16:38:54 GMT
Seeing how there were people living here already when any of these so called "discoveries" were made, I would say none of them are valid as being the "first." pretty much. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 18, 2014 16:40:19 GMT
Seeing how there were people living here already when any of these so called "discoveries" were made, I would say none of them are valid as being the "first." I agree with that,, GTCGreg. However LTW, thinking the world was half as big as it was, and thinking he had discovered the East Indies, does not mean ip that he did not have a map,showing the east coast of the America in some form, which he presumed was the East Indeis. If you did not realise the existance of the Pacific Ocean, then there was only one great body of water on the planet and he had crossed it. presumably such a map would not have it listed as the east indies. |
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Post by mrfatso on Nov 18, 2014 17:11:47 GMT
No it would just have been the land the other side of the Atlantic, which to them by almost by definition was the East Indies, or at least part of it presumably the Tropical bits were.
Let's presume he knew there was land on the other side of the Atlantic, he also knew that spices grew in hot regions, so he headed west and south to the warmer climes, than the Norse did when they tried to settle.
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Post by the light works on Nov 18, 2014 17:21:30 GMT
or we can presume that in the past all recorded exploratory trips to the west had reached the point of no return without finding land; and mathematically, it was impossible to sail to the easy indies by going west without running out of provisions, because the distance was known to be too far. yet Columbus was sure the distance was no so great. because he was bad at math.
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Post by wvengineer on Nov 18, 2014 17:26:46 GMT
Considering that Viking settlements in Greenland are dated to 980AD and other settlements in Newfoundland are dated to 1004 AD, I think that beats out the Turks.
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Post by wvengineer on Nov 18, 2014 17:31:09 GMT
Correction: Leif Erikson set up a fishing village in Newfoundland in 1001 AD. Norway wins for first europeans (including the middle east) to set foot on NA proper.
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Post by mrfatso on Nov 18, 2014 22:16:29 GMT
or we can presume that in the past all recorded exploratory trips to the west had reached the point of no return without finding land; and mathematically, it was impossible to sail to the easy indies by going west without running out of provisions, because the distance was known to be too far. yet Columbus was sure the distance was no so great. because he was bad at math. Well,as the Norse made it as far west as the Americas, and recorded it in their sagas at least some records of voyages that far west existed. Not only that there is some evidence that communities such as the Basque fishermen knew of the existance of the Americas, even if they did not explore it. I belive Columbus was aware that a landmass existed on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, and his trip was an exploration to see if they were the East Indies. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 19, 2014 0:15:12 GMT
or we can presume that in the past all recorded exploratory trips to the west had reached the point of no return without finding land; and mathematically, it was impossible to sail to the easy indies by going west without running out of provisions, because the distance was known to be too far. yet Columbus was sure the distance was no so great. because he was bad at math. Well,as the Norse made it as far west as the Americas, and recorded it in their sagas at least some records of voyages that far west existed. Not only that there is some evidence that communities such as the Basque fishermen knew of the existance of the Americas, even if they did not explore it. I belive Columbus was aware that a landmass existed on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean, and his trip was an exploration to see if they were the East Indies. I have read translations of his journals, and they give no indication of anything other than him thinking the planet was smaller than it actually is. the truth is Columbus' judgement was unusually bad - he gave no indication that he believed anything other than that he could reach the east indies before running out of provisions. - well, besides believing he could lie about how far they'd gone and the crew wouldn't know it; or that he had sailed further than he actually had. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 19, 2014 3:31:55 GMT
Not something remotely testable by MB.
Moved to the Oracle for those who wish to discuss this futher - CM
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