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Post by silverdragon on Jan 4, 2015 13:11:41 GMT
Communication, Non Verbal and Spoken. Just remembered one that I wanted to post a long time ago but forgot about again for some reason. It's the "common knowledge" that in any type of face to face communication between two human beings, only 7% of how we perceive what's being communicated relates directly to the spoken words, while 38% relate to intonation and a whopping 55% relate entirely to body language. The theory has expanded to be "the explanation" for why it can be more difficult to convey a message in writing or over the phone as opposed to face to face. Over the phone the 55% body language is left out and in writing you're only left with the final 7% represented by words, meaning that the brain is actively trying to construct intonation and perhaps even body language to go with the words, often leading to misinterpretations. While there's certainly some truth to the idea that intonation and body language account for a large amount of the way we communicate, there's no actual evidence of the ratio proposed by this theory. Nevertheless, this idea has been perpetuated for years by so-called "communication experts" who make a lot of money telling the rest of us how we SHOULD communicate with one another, as opposed to how we actually DO communicate with one another. It's been said so many times that it's widely accepted as fact, when in reality, the man who came up with the 7-38-55 ratio himself has made it clear that this does not apply to ALL communications between human beings*. The theory was hijacked and turned into a money making scheme and is now so widely spread as "truth" that business schools and even universities around the world teach it in classes about communication. I think it's time this is tested and put to rest once and for all. *Source: Wiki link
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 4, 2015 13:11:59 GMT
I guess that would make a good one to try. Get two people to try and explain something, one face to face, one over a voice only communications. "Its over there".....................>>> Myth proved. But given a mathematical equation of the state my Kid is playing with in A-Level and HND level maths and physics, you can only truly understand it when its written down, ....so myth busted ?... Given my ability to do a quick shorthand route description "Driver to driver", from landmarks we should both know (Where Dozy-Git got stuck last year...) and the like from experiences we share, I can send someone somewhere entirely without any need for a map, Yet. Some people can relate and form a pictorial route all for themselves, just by putting a finger on a map. ...............So possible plausible. either way.... Heck, did we just swap threads with the Quantum Cat here or something?... I say this idea has to be defined as what constitutes information and communication. Oh, and for one last ultimate communication, a whole conversation was over with just one point of the finger, when asked what my plans for the day were, I pointed to a large crate. The transport manager didnt need to know anything else..... So we had a joke about Manchester City football team on the way to the canteen instead... Neither of us moves much without regular lubrication of the coffee variety. I say this one deserves its own thread, yes?.. Related Myth, the longer your coffee order the bigger the twit you are. Presuming you know exactly what you want, If you cant ask for coffee in less than ten words, your just showing off.
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Post by the light works on Jan 4, 2015 15:26:54 GMT
so is the myth that people who know and work together can develop efficient forms of nonverbal communication?
I think that this topic just has too many variables to quantify a specific myth. to me, it borders on being a quantum cat.
to wit, an old joke, "grandma never swore, but she could say "sugar" in such a way you didn't want to step in it."
perhaps one could say "people can convey more information face to face than they can through media, and the more total the media representation, the closer to face-to-face the transfer is"
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 5, 2015 17:37:00 GMT
No, what I want tested is the statistical claim of the 7-38-55 ratio of communication.
The claim is that only 7% of the message you're trying to communicate is picked up directly from the words you speak. The rest is purely from intonation (38%) and body language (55%). I know that isn't true and if you think it through, so do you, but it's been said so many times that many people don't even stop to think, "Hey, wait... That can't be right..."
This crackpot theory is basically suggesting that 93% of all our communication is non-verbal. If that's true, then as long as there's consistency between what a person is verbally saying and what their body language and intonation is conveying (in other words, the person speaking must be sincere), then I should be able to understand 93% of any conversation on the globe, no matter what the spoken language is.
Does that sound right to you? Probably not, but that's in essense what this theory says, and people are buying into it without question.
EDIT: I'm not questioning that body language and intonation have a huge impact on how we hear spoken words. For instance, if you meet an old acquaintance and he says, "So great to see you again!", but he's saying it while gritting his teeth and rolling his eyes, you'll seriously doubt that he means what he just said. We pick up on stuff like that all the time, but to say that the words only convey 7% of what's actually being said in ALL cases of communication between people is dubious at best.
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Post by the light works on Jan 6, 2015 2:50:26 GMT
No, what I want tested is the statistical claim of the 7-38-55 ratio of communication. The claim is that only 7% of the message you're trying to communicate is picked up directly from the words you speak. The rest is purely from intonation (38%) and body language (55%). I know that isn't true and if you think it through, so do you, but it's been said so many times that many people don't even stop to think, "Hey, wait... That can't be right..." This crackpot theory is basically suggesting that 93% of all our communication is non-verbal. If that's true, then as long as there's consistency between what a person is verbally saying and what their body language and intonation is conveying (in other words, the person speaking must be sincere), then I should be able to understand 93% of any conversation on the globe, no matter what the spoken language is. Does that sound right to you? Probably not, but that's in essense what this theory says, and people are buying into it without question. EDIT: I'm not questioning that body language and intonation have a huge impact on how we hear spoken words. For instance, if you meet an old acquaintance and he says, "So great to see you again!", but he's saying it while gritting his teeth and rolling his eyes, you'll seriously doubt that he means what he just said. We pick up on stuff like that all the time, but to say that the words only convey 7% of what's actually being said in ALL cases of communication between people is dubious at best. the snarky comment would be that it is an illustration of how abysmal the average person's listening skills are. however, I would be willing to entertain a theory that in a face to face conversation, with a person speaking the same language, a person can gather more information from nonaudible communication than from their ears. - however, the caveat in that is, that it includes lip reading. the test for that would be to place the test subjects in a controlled environment and see if they could convey information at a lower volume (signal to noise ratio) with the recipient able to see them. the other side of that is if it includes people in close (romantic or non romantic) relationships, then they can often convey a lot of information - as silver said, through personal code phrases and gestures. there HAVE been accusations that my parents and I practice communication by ESP.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 6, 2015 10:44:49 GMT
the snarky comment would be that it is an illustration of how abysmal the average person's listening skills are. however, I would be willing to entertain a theory that in a face to face conversation, with a person speaking the same language, a person can gather more information from nonaudible communication than from their ears. - however, the caveat in that is, that it includes lip reading. the test for that would be to place the test subjects in a controlled environment and see if they could convey information at a lower volume (signal to noise ratio) with the recipient able to see them. the other side of that is if it includes people in close (romantic or non romantic) relationships, then they can often convey a lot of information - as silver said, through personal code phrases and gestures. there HAVE been accusations that my parents and I practice communication by ESP. You're completely right, but what you're saying isn't what I'm challenging. This is what it's all about (from the Wiki): "In his studies, Mehrabian comes to two conclusions. First, that there are basically three elements in any face-to-face communication: Words Tone of voice Nonverbal behaviour (e.g. facial expression) Secondly, the non-verbal elements are particularly important for communicating feelings and attitude, especially when they are incongruent: If words disagree with the tone of voice and nonverbal behaviour, people tend to believe the tonality and nonverbal behaviour. It is not the case that non-verbal elements in all senses convey the bulk of the message, even though this is how his conclusions are sometimes misinterpreted. For instance, when delivering a lecture or presentation, the textual content of the lecture is delivered entirely verbally, but the non-verbal cues are very important in conveying the speaker's attitude towards what they are saying, notably their belief or conviction. Attitudes and congruenceAccording to Mehrabian, the three elements account differently for our liking for the person who puts forward a message concerning their feelings: words account for 7%, tone of voice accounts for 38%, and body language accounts for 55% of the liking. For effective and meaningful communication about emotions, these three parts of the message need to support each other - they have to be "congruent". In case of any incongruence, the receiver of the message might be irritated by two messages coming from two different channels, giving cues in two different directions. The following example should help illustrate incongruence in verbal and non-verbal communication. Verbal: "I do not have a problem with you!" Non-verbal: person avoids eye-contact, looks anxious, has a closed body language, etc. It becomes more likely that the receiver will trust the predominant form of communication, which to Mehrabian's findings is the non-verbal impact of tone+gestures (38% + 55%), rather than the literal meaning of the words (7%). This is known as "the 7%-38%-55% Rule". It is important to say that in the respective study, Mehrabian conducted experiments dealing with communications of feelings and attitudes (i.e., like-dislike), and that the above, disproportionate influence of tone of voice and body language becomes effective only when the situation is ambiguous. Such ambiguity appears mostly when the words spoken are inconsistent with the tone of voice or body language of the speaker (sender). Misinterpretation This "7%-38%-55% rule" has been overly interpreted in such a way, that some people claim that in any communication situation, the meaning of a message was being transported mostly by non-verbal cues, not by the meaning of words. This generalization from the initially very specific conditions in his experiments is the common mistake made with regard to Mehrabian's rule. On his website, Mehrabian clearly states: "Total Liking = 7% Verbal Liking + 38% Vocal Liking + 55% Facial Liking. Please note that this and other equations regarding relative importance of verbal and nonverbal messages were derived from experiments dealing with communications of feelings and attitudes (i.e., like–dislike). Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable. Also see references 286 and 305 in Silent Messages – these are the original sources of my findings." (Further down the page - and this is the important part) "There are several limitations of the study's applicability to real life, which are largely ignored when the study is now cited outside a scientific context and contribute to the misinterpretation above. First, it is based on the judgment of the meaning of single tape recorded words, i.e. a very artificial context. Second, the figures are obtained by combining results from two different studies which possibly cannot be combined. Third, it relates only to the communication of positive versus negative emotions. Fourth, it relates only to women, as men did not participate in the study. Fifth, other types of nonverbal communication, e.g. body posture, were not included in the studies." First of all, we've got the original claim of the ratio, which has been challenged many times as stated in the last section above. The original findings were based on a very small test group, consisting of only women, under extremely artificial circumstances and relating only to single words conveying positive or negative emotions. While there is certainly some truth to the findings (we've all encountered incongruency in our daily lives and questioned the validity of the spoken words when body language and tone seem to say something else), the very artificial way of obtaining the specific numbers might mean they're completely wrong. My personal experience is that there are many other factors at play, such as how well the two people communicating know each other, state of mind of each participant at the time of the exchange, life experience, expectations toward the exchange and the environment and context the exchange takes place in, but these factors are all excluded from Mehrabian's experiment. The second thing is how this is used in real life and this is the actual reason for me wanting this busted once and for all. As the Wiki also says, so-called "communications experts" make huge bundles of money on taking this (possibly very flawed) theory completely out of context and claiming it as ultimate truth of all communication processes, even though the developer of the theory himself says that the application of it is limited. But people are buying it nonetheless.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 6, 2015 12:15:54 GMT
No, what I want tested is the statistical claim of the 7-38-55 ratio of communication. The claim is that only 7% of the message you're trying to communicate is picked up directly from the words you speak. The rest is purely from intonation (38%) and body language (55%). I know that isn't true and if you think it through, so do you, but it's been said so many times that many people don't even stop to think, "Hey, wait... That can't be right..." This crackpot theory is basically suggesting that 93% of all our communication is non-verbal. If that's true, then as long as there's consistency between what a person is verbally saying and what their body language and intonation is conveying (in other words, the person speaking must be sincere), then I should be able to understand 93% of any conversation on the globe, no matter what the spoken language is. Does that sound right to you? Probably not, but that's in essense what this theory says, and people are buying into it without question. EDIT: I'm not questioning that body language and intonation have a huge impact on how we hear spoken words. For instance, if you meet an old acquaintance and he says, "So great to see you again!", but he's saying it while gritting his teeth and rolling his eyes, you'll seriously doubt that he means what he just said. We pick up on stuff like that all the time, but to say that the words only convey 7% of what's actually being said in ALL cases of communication between people is dubious at best. Using the above post, If you had said the above in words face to face to me, I would have gotten pretty much everything you are tying to say from the words alone?.... I may have got how you feel about what you are saying, but as a transfer of what you wish to say, the words above are pretty much the most important part. I guess its what you are saying that counts.. If it was the "How good to see you" through gritted teeth, its a different sentence all together.....
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 6, 2015 12:51:41 GMT
I may have got how you feel about what you are saying... Exactly. And that's what the guy who came up with the theory says. Body language and intonation are only important as far as how someone is feeling about what they're saying and, in turn, how that makes you feel when hearing it. In that sense, those two things are immensely important, but the theory doesn't apply to any and all communications, as the self-proclaimed "communication experts" would like to have us believe. We're not all left with a huge 93% gap in our understanding of what's being communicated through written words, just because they're not accompanied by someone to listen to and look at while reading them, are we?
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 6, 2015 13:11:50 GMT
I may have got how you feel about what you are saying... Exactly. And that's what the guy who came up with the theory says. Body language and intonation are only important as far as how someone is feeling about what they're saying and, in turn, how that makes you feel when hearing it. In that sense, those two things are immensely important, but the theory doesn't apply to any and all communications, as the self-proclaimed "communication experts" would like to have us believe. We're not all left with a huge 93% gap in our understanding of what's being communicated through written words, just because they're not accompanied by someone to listen to and look at while reading them, are we? So if you read out a **Shopping list** of say a dozen items, how you *Feel* about each item is more useful?... And maths equations have feelings then?.... Reading the football results, who cares what the news reader feels about that ?... he doesnt support your team does he?... I say these experts have got their statistics from the same place we get ours... hang on a mo, our random generator running, ... its finished, it says 93% of all statistics today are made up on the spot?... If written words are so useless, how come this board manages to work at all. I agree, they are talking from the wrong end of a donkey.......
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Post by the light works on Jan 6, 2015 16:15:33 GMT
so basically he took a valid phenomenon and pulled a conclusion from WAY out in left field.
to put his claim in proper perspective, since you can't see my body language or hear my tone of voice:
7% of the holding strength of a nail is from the nail itself, while 53% is from your technique and 40% is from the brand of hammer; so if you buy the proper hammer and hold it correctly, your joint will still be 93% as strong even if you don't have an actual nail.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 6, 2015 17:50:34 GMT
so basically he took a valid phenomenon and pulled a conclusion from WAY out in left field. to put his claim in proper perspective, since you can't see my body language or hear my tone of voice: 7% of the holding strength of a nail is from the nail itself, while 53% is from your technique and 40% is from the brand of hammer; so if you buy the proper hammer and hold it correctly, your joint will still be 93% as strong even if you don't have an actual nail. Sounds about right
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 7, 2015 7:39:53 GMT
so basically he took a valid phenomenon and pulled a conclusion from WAY out in left field. to put his claim in proper perspective, since you can't see my body language or hear my tone of voice: 7% of the holding strength of a nail is from the nail itself, while 53% is from your technique and 40% is from the brand of hammer; so if you buy the proper hammer and hold it correctly, your joint will still be 93% as strong even if you don't have an actual nail. Sounds about right The worrying part is I cant find fault with the logic....
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 7, 2015 9:35:10 GMT
Sounds about right The worrying part is I cant find fault with the logic.... And that's my general problem with statistics and percentages. They can be manipulated into whatever you want them to say. It's just a matter of highlighting the things that underline the point you want to make. Statistics may very well say that there's a 93% chance of something happening or not happening and the logic may at first glance seem solid, but depending on what makes up the last 7%, that relatively tiny bit can be infinitely more vital than any other part. Someone may claim that, statistically, you're more likely to die in a freak toaster accident in your kitchen than by being eaten by a shark. That sounds reasonable enough, right? But how useful is that statistic when you've left your kitchen to go swimming in shark infested waters? What the people who came up with that statistic fail to tell you is that it's based on the fact that the average person spends a bigger part of their life in the company of toasters than they do in the company of sharks. If you want people to buy your statistic, you work it like this: You take a random city of 10,000 inhabitants over a span of 30 years. Within those 30 years, .03% of the inhabitants die in shark attacks. In comparison, 3% die in freak toaster accidents. Dive a little deeper into the data, though, and you get a very different result: Within those 30 years, only 10 of the 10,000 inhabitants have ever been in shark infested waters. In comparison, there's not one person among the 10,000 who lives in a home that doesn't have a toaster. This means that 300 out of the 10,000 people who are daily in contact with toasters die from operating them. On the other hand, 3 of the 10 people who have been in contact with sharks have been attacked and died. This means that for all the people who come into contact with toasters, the mortality rate is still 3%, but for all the people who come into contact with sharks, the mortality rate is now 30% and not the proposed .03%. The first statistic shows that sharks are less likely to kill you than toasters. The second statistic shows that coming into contact with a shark is much more dangerous than coming into contact with a toaster. The point being that you have to be near a shark for it to kill you, but if you are, it's much more likely to do so than your toaster is.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 7, 2015 9:49:54 GMT
40 people a year die fishing.(Or about that, its been a decade since I updated that figure...) Not out at sea trawler men, no, this is the hobby fisherman sat on a canal or river bank dangling worms.
The most dangerous Australian animal?... The horse. More people die from Horse each year than any other animal. That one I found last year.
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Post by mrfatso on Jan 7, 2015 11:31:18 GMT
40 people a year die fishing.(Or about that, its been a decade since I updated that figure...) Not out at sea trawler men, no, this is the hobby fisherman sat on a canal or river bank dangling worms. The most dangerous Australian animal?... The horse. More people die from Horse each year than any other animal. That one I found last year. The trouble again with the fishing statistic, as I know you realise, is how many of those deaths where directly related to the actual activity of fishing, slipping in and drowning for example and how many where older possibly retired gentlemen partaking in a gentle hobby, sitting on a riverbank how had a heartattack who where already in poor health? The breakdown of the initial stats would tell you how dangerous actual angling as a hobby was, as opposed to a secondary reason for deaths.
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Post by the light works on Jan 7, 2015 15:26:42 GMT
in the US, the wild animal that causes the most deaths per year is deer.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 8, 2015 8:37:01 GMT
In truth, the people collecting that data were clear to define fishing, not trawler or commercial, and separate those two, so were also careful to differentiate between accidents while fishing from fishing related accidents. Plus if you slip in whilst landing a fish and drown, its still fishing.... Taking out heart attacks, you just landed a prize fish, its a strain?...
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Post by c64 on Feb 6, 2015 0:16:27 GMT
so is the myth that people who know and work together can develop efficient forms of nonverbal communication? Even complete strangers and most domestic animals can do that!
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