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Post by the light works on Jan 9, 2015 16:21:17 GMT
Well, the OP is if the cover on covered wagons could A; Catch the wind enough to provide propulsive force to move it without the use of draft animals. B; Provide enough propulsive force to reduce the strain on the draft animals. That you could move a wagon with wind power alone isn't exactly a myth, we have land yachts after all, the only limits would be the amount of thrust you'd need to get the mass moving and the size of the sail/mast you'd need. There is one thing that does occur to me and that is that the 'sails' might have been wind sails - That is sections of cloth designed to redirect a breeze into the wagon and onto the occupants to help keep them cool. Such devices were used on ships, and I can see a former sailor rigging up something like this to stop his family from melting in the back of the larger wagons during hot weather. the primary purpose of the covers was to protect the contents of the wagon from the elements - whether sun or rain. accounts written of journeys by wagon referred to drawing the covers closed or open at the ends depending on whether it was desirable to have more or less elements coming into the wagon - using the cover as a wind tunnel would not be out of line with that. wetting the canvas to cool the wagon might or might not be realistic depending on water availability. |
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 9, 2015 20:39:50 GMT
Am I the only one to think that while there may or may not be some slight advantage to the covers when you have the wind in your back, the opposite would be true if you were going against the wind?
Going with that train of thought, if there's anything to this, someone must have noticed at some point and figured out a way to either utilize that to its full potential or reduce the effects of wind on the wagon altogether. It might have been 150 years ago, but these people were no more idiots than you and I are today, so you'd think someone would take note if there was a problem/advantage.
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Post by the light works on Jan 10, 2015 4:59:51 GMT
Am I the only one to think that while there may or may not be some slight advantage to the covers when you have the wind in your back, the opposite would be true if you were going against the wind? Going with that train of thought, if there's anything to this, someone must have noticed at some point and figured out a way to either utilize that to its full potential or reduce the effects of wind on the wagon altogether. It might have been 150 years ago, but these people were no more idiots than you and I are today, so you'd think someone would take note if there was a problem/advantage. what was it Neil DeGrasse Tyson said? "just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean they couldn't" |
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 10, 2015 10:54:19 GMT
Am I the only one to think that while there may or may not be some slight advantage to the covers when you have the wind in your back, the opposite would be true if you were going against the wind? Going with that train of thought, if there's anything to this, someone must have noticed at some point and figured out a way to either utilize that to its full potential or reduce the effects of wind on the wagon altogether. It might have been 150 years ago, but these people were no more idiots than you and I are today, so you'd think someone would take note if there was a problem/advantage. what was it Neil DeGrasse Tyson said? "just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean they couldn't" Never heard that particular quote, but it sounds like something he could have said  |
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Post by the light works on Jan 10, 2015 14:01:03 GMT
what was it Neil DeGrasse Tyson said? "just because you can't figure it out doesn't mean they couldn't" Never heard that particular quote, but it sounds like something he could have said it is an alleged twitter post: "Neil deGrasse TysonVerified account @neiltyson Just because you can't figure out how ancient civilizations built stuff, doesn't mean they got help from Aliens." |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 10, 2015 14:22:26 GMT
Testing if a Sail wagon would assist....
Idea confirmed, the beast of burden would be part of the team, not just "That horse", and if anything could be done to ease its load?...
There are tales where on long journeys horse riders would walk for some parts to giver the horse a rest.
If that be true, making the wagon a little easier to pull?...
Testing.
Set up a loaded wagon, with a following wind, raise sail, if the wagon moves even slightly, you have proof of idea?....
I would imagine that many ex-sailors may have good ideas of how to rig a sail.
Sailing into the wind may be a problem...
Either wait for a wind in the right direction, alter course, or just dont use the sail that day....
The good thing about sail assist is you dont have to use it.
Ok, so your going to be slower for a day or two, but, at least you are moving.
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Post by the light works on Jan 10, 2015 15:14:58 GMT
Testing if a Sail wagon would assist.... Idea confirmed, the beast of burden would be part of the team, not just "That horse", and if anything could be done to ease its load?... There are tales where on long journeys horse riders would walk for some parts to giver the horse a rest. If that be true, making the wagon a little easier to pull?... Testing. Set up a loaded wagon, with a following wind, raise sail, if the wagon moves even slightly, you have proof of idea?.... I would imagine that many ex-sailors may have good ideas of how to rig a sail. Sailing into the wind may be a problem... Either wait for a wind in the right direction, alter course, or just dont use the sail that day.... The good thing about sail assist is you dont have to use it. Ok, so your going to be slower for a day or two, but, at least you are moving. actually the westward expansion was enough later that it wasn't a given everybody involved had come over as crew on a sailing vessel. not that it takes much sailing experience to understand the wind's effect on a big piece of cloth. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 11, 2015 11:09:04 GMT
I would have thought wherever you are thats building wagons on the east coast to enable people to travel west, there will be sailors around.
Wagons are a speciality build.
I know.
Just making a wheel is hard, getting the iron hoop around the outside is a craft that blacksmiths needed to learn.
In that sense, wagon building was a specialist trade, you order one "To size" and wait....
Whilst you are waiting, inventors would be showing off the new stuff...
And land sailors would be inventing ways to sail on land?.
I have a relative who has been a blacksmith in his time (Now retired) and I spent a while at his place, we did a cartwheel repair.
I had no idea how labour intensive it was.....
The iron hoop, to refit, first build a bonfire wheel shaped and heat the hoop to expand it as much as possible.
Put hoop over finished wheel.
Hammer into place... that takes about three of you to get it right.
The iron hoop is burning its own way into a tight fit....
You then throw water over it to cool the hoop.
You had to get the size exactly right, as its now going to pull everything together, and tension up the spokes.
The iron hoop is the bit that puts the strength in the wheel.
Its quite simple when you know, but before I experienced that, I just looked and didnt see.
You just dont think about how its made or why, you just see a wheel....
And how many wonder what stresses are going on in there whilst it "Works"
By the way, coopering, the art of making wooden barrels, relies on similar methods to fit the band around the barrel.
Its just you cant fit them as tight as a wheel.
Wooden barrels are made of dry wood, and when you make them, they are not exactly watertight....
The act of filling them with water and letting the wood swell and expand makes a watertight seal.
It expands... so having a really tight iron hoop around the outside?.. would that put stresses in where you dont need them?...
And then I was involved in a wooden hull being crafted....
"Caulking"
Money for old rope?...
well, actually, yes, thats true.
There were people who's job it was to take old rope and tease it apart.... recycling...
What they got was the basis of caulking, old hemp wadding that was hammered into place between planks to help make a seal.
Over the top of that, you painted tar.
But only when the wood had soaked up enough to expand a little...
(Wooden) Ships were living objects, they breathed, and if you left one out of the water too long, it dried out, and even the best seal on the boat may start to leak.
So craftsmen of all shapes and sizes would be around ports...
Chippes would be where the work was.
If they cant get work building or repairing ships, they work on land craft.
Same with Blacksmiths.
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Post by Antigone68104 on Jan 11, 2015 14:14:56 GMT
I would have thought wherever you are thats building wagons on the east coast to enable people to travel west, there will be sailors around. Wagons are a speciality build. I suppose some of the wagons might have come from east-coast ports, but it would have been the expensive way to get your wagon. :: breaks out the atlas :: A family from central Kentucky that decides to move west is roughly 500 miles straight-line distance from Charleston SC, which I know was a major port at the time (and probably still is). But hauling a wagon across the Appalachian Mountains to Kentucky for sale is going to be a lot longer than 500 miles, and presumably whoever's hauling it out there would like to be paid for his work and reimbursed for feeding the oxen (and himself) along the way. Most of the pioneer families weren't rich, they would have gone with a locally-built wagon. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 11, 2015 15:09:08 GMT
I would have thought wherever you are thats building wagons on the east coast to enable people to travel west, there will be sailors around. Wagons are a speciality build. I know. Just making a wheel is hard, getting the iron hoop around the outside is a craft that blacksmiths needed to learn. In that sense, wagon building was a specialist trade, you order one "To size" and wait.... Whilst you are waiting, inventors would be showing off the new stuff... And land sailors would be inventing ways to sail on land?. I have a relative who has been a blacksmith in his time (Now retired) and I spent a while at his place, we did a cartwheel repair. I had no idea how labour intensive it was..... The iron hoop, to refit, first build a bonfire wheel shaped and heat the hoop to expand it as much as possible. Put hoop over finished wheel. Hammer into place... that takes about three of you to get it right. The iron hoop is burning its own way into a tight fit.... You then throw water over it to cool the hoop. You had to get the size exactly right, as its now going to pull everything together, and tension up the spokes. The iron hoop is the bit that puts the strength in the wheel. Its quite simple when you know, but before I experienced that, I just looked and didnt see. You just dont think about how its made or why, you just see a wheel.... And how many wonder what stresses are going on in there whilst it "Works" By the way, coopering, the art of making wooden barrels, relies on similar methods to fit the band around the barrel. Its just you cant fit them as tight as a wheel. Wooden barrels are made of dry wood, and when you make them, they are not exactly watertight.... The act of filling them with water and letting the wood swell and expand makes a watertight seal. It expands... so having a really tight iron hoop around the outside?.. would that put stresses in where you dont need them?... And then I was involved in a wooden hull being crafted.... "Caulking" Money for old rope?... well, actually, yes, thats true. There were people who's job it was to take old rope and tease it apart.... recycling... What they got was the basis of caulking, old hemp wadding that was hammered into place between planks to help make a seal. Over the top of that, you painted tar. But only when the wood had soaked up enough to expand a little... (Wooden) Ships were living objects, they breathed, and if you left one out of the water too long, it dried out, and even the best seal on the boat may start to leak. So craftsmen of all shapes and sizes would be around ports... Chippes would be where the work was. If they cant get work building or repairing ships, they work on land craft. Same with Blacksmiths. but how many months out of the year did your blacksmith friend stay at sea? you think of america as young, because your people have lived in one place since rocks were soft. but the fact of the matter is that much of the revolutionary army was born on American soil - and some were born to parents born on American soil. by the time of the westward expansion, many of the settlers had never SEEN the ocean, because their parents had already moved inland when they were born, and you couldn't just jump in the wagon and run down to the seaside on holiday. certainly tradesmen in port towns knew how to work on ships. my great uncle sawed a new keel for the USS Constitution on his sawmill the last time the ship was refit - but that doesn't make him a sailor; and there is certainly no reason to think that at a time when people were headed west in covered wagons, that any significant number of them were retired sailors. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 12, 2015 7:48:22 GMT
Blacksmiths have a fear of water... its healthy.
Ships come into port for repairs.
Most of the time,.
If its a big job, if they are not in port, there is another term, its ship-wreck.
There is an old myth that Blacksmiths were not able to swim, and shouldnt try, because they will sink.
Maybe this has to do with Muscle mass, but it was widely believed.
You are looking at this from the wrong angle.
The expansion worked from the coast inwards.
Blacksmiths work where the work is, and in the beginning, they relied on ship repairs, until there was enough work for a full time smithy inland.
You had to have a town already before there was enough work for a Smithy.
Small towns would have to travel to a larger town, or to one place where there was a smithy.
One smithy could serve many small towns in the area.
At one point, my Relative was the only full time blacksmith for 100 miles.
Yes there were others who did Horse shoes.... but that was all they did... mobile horse shoes is a modern thing.
Cartwrights did the same.
You cant just open up a Cartwright shop and rely on that for all your needs....
Once everyone has got one, where does the trade go then?..
They did build things to last, a cart could be inherited.
Repairs were common, replacements only when absolutely necessary.
So again, this started at one side and spread inland as soon as there was enough trade to support a full time Cartwright inland.
By Inland, I mean 100 mile away from the coast or so.
Cartwrights and Smithys would not be the first settlers to move mass distance....
I have somewhere evidence that a town had to send to the City to advertise for a Blacksmith to come to their town after their old one died, as they had no one else.
Those specialist trades "followed on", cominmg to town only after it was established.
And this has nothing to do with our history, its YOUR history.
And it all happened a long time before revolutionary armies were raised.
The history of the world, part one, states that all trade starts around coastal areas, until Railroads were invented....
Because Ships were the best way to trade across distances.
If you look at this tiny island of ours, even with inland cities, like Manchester and Birmingham, you will find that the majority of our population live within an easy days walk of the coast.
Many countries still have major cities around the coast.
Shipping still relies on ships.
It always has been and always will be.
The major centre of action is around a port.
Australia is the same.
And the last time I looked, that means England and America got railroads at about the same time.
This is off topic.
The discussion was around how to build a sailing cart....
It has nowt to do with history of our civilisation.
I still say in the early days of settlers moving out Westwards, the start of the journey would be on the east side of your country.
Close to a major shipping port.
At that time, the experts of sail, would be sailors, and who better to ask than a sailor.
It didnt have to be that way, its just why discount the idea?.
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Post by the light works on Jan 12, 2015 16:27:42 GMT
Blacksmiths have a fear of water... its healthy. Ships come into port for repairs. Most of the time,. If its a big job, if they are not in port, there is another term, its ship-wreck. There is an old myth that Blacksmiths were not able to swim, and shouldnt try, because they will sink. Maybe this has to do with Muscle mass, but it was widely believed. You are looking at this from the wrong angle. The expansion worked from the coast inwards. Blacksmiths work where the work is, and in the beginning, they relied on ship repairs, until there was enough work for a full time smithy inland. You had to have a town already before there was enough work for a Smithy. Small towns would have to travel to a larger town, or to one place where there was a smithy. One smithy could serve many small towns in the area. At one point, my Relative was the only full time blacksmith for 100 miles. Yes there were others who did Horse shoes.... but that was all they did... mobile horse shoes is a modern thing. Cartwrights did the same. You cant just open up a Cartwright shop and rely on that for all your needs.... Once everyone has got one, where does the trade go then?.. They did build things to last, a cart could be inherited. Repairs were common, replacements only when absolutely necessary. So again, this started at one side and spread inland as soon as there was enough trade to support a full time Cartwright inland. By Inland, I mean 100 mile away from the coast or so. Cartwrights and Smithys would not be the first settlers to move mass distance.... I have somewhere evidence that a town had to send to the City to advertise for a Blacksmith to come to their town after their old one died, as they had no one else. Those specialist trades "followed on", cominmg to town only after it was established. And this has nothing to do with our history, its YOUR history. And it all happened a long time before revolutionary armies were raised. The history of the world, part one, states that all trade starts around coastal areas, until Railroads were invented.... Because Ships were the best way to trade across distances. If you look at this tiny island of ours, even with inland cities, like Manchester and Birmingham, you will find that the majority of our population live within an easy days walk of the coast. Many countries still have major cities around the coast. Shipping still relies on ships. It always has been and always will be. The major centre of action is around a port. Australia is the same. And the last time I looked, that means England and America got railroads at about the same time. This is off topic. The discussion was around how to build a sailing cart.... It has nowt to do with history of our civilisation. I still say in the early days of settlers moving out Westwards, the start of the journey would be on the east side of your country. Close to a major shipping port. At that time, the experts of sail, would be sailors, and who better to ask than a sailor. It didnt have to be that way, its just why discount the idea?. except your basic premise is wrong. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Route_of_the_Oregon_Trailindependence missouri, the official start of the Oregon trail, was over 1000 miles from the Atlantic ocean, and 850 miles from the gulf of mexico.. the westward expansion was happening in the 1830s, 150 years after the war of independence. for the majority of Americans, at that time, overseas trade was not a part of their lives. those who produced raw materials or goods might produce things that ultimately went overseas, but most would have little contact other than a buyer in the nearest major city. here is what our population looked like in 1820. users.humboldt.edu/ogayle/hist110/MapUSPopulation1860.png |
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 13, 2015 8:37:42 GMT
How did they get there?...
Thats a long walk.
Just a thought, but did the going west start before Independence Missouri was thought about as a city?...
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 13, 2015 12:05:40 GMT
You are thinking too big.
Sailing is and was not limited to large ocean going trading ships, in fact historically speaking the most common sailing craft were fishing boats. Most settlements, at least in the early 1800's, were usually built near navigable rivers, lakes or of course the ocean. Not just for the supply of water, but because it was faster to travel over water than it was by land - even in Britain which had a fairly decent road system at this time it was faster to move goods by water.
While this wouldn't automatically apply to every settlement, in general any location that had a population large enough to support and send out settlers is likely to have been close to a river or body of water that had boats sailing on it. And such boats would have had sails and the infrastructure needed to support such craft.
Overseas trade from America was big business between 1793 and 1812, being worth something like $70 million in 1812 and carried out by a merchant fleet that was not far behind Britain's in terms of size. The war of 1812 however destroyed both US trade and the fleet that supported that trade, leaving fishing as the only oceanic occupation not crippled by the appearance of the Royal Navy* and putting a hell of a lot of sailors and shipwrights out of jobs. A fair number of those people would have most likely moved inland in the hope of being able to support themselves and their families. Most of those old sailors were probably too old to have been settlers, but their children were probably amongst those moving west and those children would have picked up some sailing skills from daddy - Even if you live away from a body of water you could sail on, some knowledge of sails would be helpful in making wind sails to cool a house in summer, making tents or awnings and even in making windmills or pumps.
Or if you like the knowledge needed to create a basic sail and use it was probably reasonably widespread amongst those heading west, even if many of those doing so had never seen the ocean or set foot on a boat.
(*The Royal Navy usually left local fishing craft alone. This was as much practicality as not wanting to starve the local population who relied on fishing for food. Local fishing boats could provide valuable information about what ships were in a port**, were usually quite open to the idea of selling their catch to British ships*** and could provide useful lines of communication with their counterparts in port****)
(**This doesn't seem to have been considered treasonous, as long as you didn't give too much information away. The most likely explanation for this is that any information you could get from the local fishing boats could also have been obtained by more direct means - as in sailing closer to the port or sending in your own boats (which was done on occasion). Sending in ships or boats was not usually in anyone's interests. The blockading ship could loose men and suffer damage while the port itself would suffer as the local population panicked when the alarm was raised. And of course the local commander might not want to have to open fire as this would reveal that the big fortification guarding the entrance only had three working guns in it.)
(***British credit and coin was good, even with those who were technically enemies)
(****When Captain Brooke of HMS Shannon challenged the USS Chesapeake to a fight the letter was sent by one of the American fishing boats - although the Chesapeake set sail before the letter was received. In other cases (and more usually) such lines of communication could be used to arrange prisoner exchanges on the local level or to deliver letters from prisoners to their families.)
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Post by the light works on Jan 13, 2015 15:49:35 GMT
How did they get there?... Thats a long walk. Just a thought, but did the going west start before Independence Missouri was thought about as a city?... they migrated over a period of about 200 years. keep in mind - in that era, Americans considered 40 acres to be about the right size lot to build a house. if you decided you didn't like the neighborhood, you just moved somewhere else. when the first of my family moved to Oregon a hundred and some odd years ago, he moved so far out into the undeveloped region, he waited until spring to make the trek back to town to file his claim. (which led to some debate over when we should celebrate the hundred year anniversary of the homestead) |
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Post by the light works on Jan 13, 2015 15:53:53 GMT
You are thinking too big. Sailing is and was not limited to large ocean going trading ships, in fact historically speaking the most common sailing craft were fishing boats. Most settlements, at least in the early 1800's, were usually built near navigable rivers, lakes or of course the ocean. Not just for the supply of water, but because it was faster to travel over water than it was by land - even in Britain which had a fairly decent road system at this time it was faster to move goods by water. While this wouldn't automatically apply to every settlement, in general any location that had a population large enough to support and send out settlers is likely to have been close to a river or body of water that had boats sailing on it. And such boats would have had sails and the infrastructure needed to support such craft. Overseas trade from America was big business between 1793 and 1812, being worth something like $70 million in 1812 and carried out by a merchant fleet that was not far behind Britain's in terms of size. The war of 1812 however destroyed both US trade and the fleet that supported that trade, leaving fishing as the only oceanic occupation not crippled by the appearance of the Royal Navy* and putting a hell of a lot of sailors and shipwrights out of jobs. A fair number of those people would have most likely moved inland in the hope of being able to support themselves and their families. Most of those old sailors were probably too old to have been settlers, but their children were probably amongst those moving west and those children would have picked up some sailing skills from daddy - Even if you live away from a body of water you could sail on, some knowledge of sails would be helpful in making wind sails to cool a house in summer, making tents or awnings and even in making windmills or pumps. Or if you like the knowledge needed to create a basic sail and use it was probably reasonably widespread amongst those heading west, even if many of those doing so had never seen the ocean or set foot on a boat. (*The Royal Navy usually left local fishing craft alone. This was as much practicality as not wanting to starve the local population who relied on fishing for food. Local fishing boats could provide valuable information about what ships were in a port**, were usually quite open to the idea of selling their catch to British ships*** and could provide useful lines of communication with their counterparts in port****) (**This doesn't seem to have been considered treasonous, as long as you didn't give too much information away. The most likely explanation for this is that any information you could get from the local fishing boats could also have been obtained by more direct means - as in sailing closer to the port or sending in your own boats (which was done on occasion). Sending in ships or boats was not usually in anyone's interests. The blockading ship could loose men and suffer damage while the port itself would suffer as the local population panicked when the alarm was raised. And of course the local commander might not want to have to open fire as this would reveal that the big fortification guarding the entrance only had three working guns in it.) (***British credit and coin was good, even with those who were technically enemies) (****When Captain Brooke of HMS Shannon challenged the USS Chesapeake to a fight the letter was sent by one of the American fishing boats - although the Chesapeake set sail before the letter was received. In other cases (and more usually) such lines of communication could be used to arrange prisoner exchanges on the local level or to deliver letters from prisoners to their families.) and you are thinking like an islander. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 13, 2015 16:25:41 GMT
Nope, I'm thinking as someone who's noted where cities and large settlements were built throughout Europe. And indeed throughout the world until very recently; Near navigable rivers or lakes.
I can't think of any major city in Europe that isn't on a major river - or at least none that predate railways.
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Post by the light works on Jan 13, 2015 17:57:48 GMT
Nope, I'm thinking as someone who's noted where cities and large settlements were built throughout Europe. And indeed throughout the world until very recently; Near navigable rivers or lakes. I can't think of any major city in Europe that isn't on a major river - or at least none that predate railways. and that's where the sheer size of the US makes the difference. we certainly had settlements near navigable water - but we also had a LOT of people who struck out for the tall timber, and made a perfectly good living without a marine economy anywhere around. addendum: so my point is - that a lot of America didn't bother with major cities. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 13, 2015 18:14:09 GMT
1; Tall timber was used in, errm, ship building. In fact one of the main reasons for Britain wanting to settle North America was for the timber they needed to build ships. Timber was one of the principal exports of the US even after the War of Independence. (The other export being grain)
2; Timber was transported by...water. Moving it overland any distance was impractical. Even in Britain, which as I noted is both smaller and which had far better roads that elsewhere in the world at the time, it was cheaper and faster to move a tree five miles to the nearest river, then take it twenty miles downstream. Load it on a ship and sail it some 150 miles along the coast to the shipyard - even if the timber was only fifty miles from the shipyard to start with.
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Post by the light works on Jan 13, 2015 20:10:29 GMT
1; Tall timber was used in, errm, ship building. In fact one of the main reasons for Britain wanting to settle North America was for the timber they needed to build ships. Timber was one of the principal exports of the US even after the War of Independence. (The other export being grain) 2; Timber was transported by...water. Moving it overland any distance was impractical. Even in Britain, which as I noted is both smaller and which had far better roads that elsewhere in the world at the time, it was cheaper and faster to move a tree five miles to the nearest river, then take it twenty miles downstream. Load it on a ship and sail it some 150 miles along the coast to the shipyard - even if the timber was only fifty miles from the shipyard to start with. at that time, if the timber was 50 miles from the shipyard, they didn't bother with it. or they just moved the shipyard. history lesson: the reason Portland's nickname is "stumptown" is because they had to get the trees out of the way before they could build the houses out of them. America's early history is that of people simply moving to where the resources they wanted were. |
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