|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Jan 6, 2015 1:57:35 GMT
I think it was on the old Disco boards that we had a thread on prairie schooners -- most history books say covered wagons got that nickname because the large white cover looked like a ship's sails, but there's been claims that they actually traveled by wind power. There were wind-powered wagons, such as this one:  But to paraphrase Crocodile Dundee, that's not a covered wagon, this is a covered wagon:  I've really got to question running one of these solely on wind power, and not just because there's ample evidence that the pioneers used oxen or horses. You might be able to minimize drag from weeds and tall grasses (on tall-grass prairie, of course) by sticking to established trails, but that would limit your travel time to when the wind and the trails are lined up together. A covered wagon would be loaded up with every worldly possession the pioneers thought they'd need to establish their new life on the frontier, which makes for a lot of mass that needs to be moved. A Conestoga could carry up to 12,000 pounds (5400 kg). Most pioneer wagons weren't true Conestogas, but converted farm wagons, but a 10-15 foot long farm wagon would still be able to carry a lot of stuff. Unfortunately, for a real test, J&A would have to take a wagon out on the prairie. With the changes in shooting arrangements now that the build team isn't filling half the episode, I don't know if road trips are more hassle now. They could do a proof-of-concept out on the Alameda runway, though. I don't know if they could borrow a reproduction wagon from a rodeo, or if they'd need to build one. Nine-Mile Prairie, outside of Lincoln NE, is a preserved piece of tallgrass prairie. It's controlled by the University of Nebraska, but the guys could go through their education contacts to get permission to film there. (The lease arrangement specifies that the land has to be used for educational purposes.) It looks like the Pawnee National Grassland in eastern Colorado would be shortgrass prairie. |
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on Jan 6, 2015 2:06:40 GMT
As far as wind direction and trail direction go, a pioneer with sailing knowledge would easily be able to rig up the proper sail to tack as needed to go in whatever direction they want.
|
|
|
|
Post by ponytail61 on Jan 6, 2015 4:55:48 GMT
There is some decent info out there to start researching. This blog post has some names and places. Seems like a man named Peppard built one and traveled 500 miles with some buddies out to Denver. This professor in 2009 built a 1/12 scale model of Peppard's windwagon and was going to build a full size one in 2009-2010 and recreate the journey. He might be helpful to the Mythbusters if they took it on. researchmatters.asu.edu/profiles-in-discovery/randall-cerveny |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jan 6, 2015 5:36:15 GMT
I certainly agree that the "prairie schooner" name was purely based on cosmetics.anybody who thinks otherwise might be advised to go to the how stupid can you be thread.
however, if one insists on the windwagon concept, one would need to assess whether a wind assisted wagon was possible. (meaning hybrid wind/oxen for motive force.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Jan 6, 2015 16:20:48 GMT
Only 500 pounds of supplies on Peppard's windwagon? Man, he was traveling light. I just found a rundown of the average load in a pioneer's wagon, and basic foodstuffs for a family of four add up to 1484 pounds. Then add on cooking utensils, clothing, tools .... A full-scale reproduction of Peppard's design would be a great way to end the episode, especially if they can run it across prairie. But to be true to the prairie schooner claims, they'd need to test a standard pioneer wagon/load as well. |
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Jan 6, 2015 21:06:09 GMT
Observations;
The settlers probably used more than one type of wagon, in fact it is reasonable to assume that the 'typical' type of covered waggon might not have actually been the most common. I'd guess that they would have used whatever kinds they could have found, and this was just the largest and best known type.
If wind power was used it might have been in conjunction with oxen (or whatever animals were pulling the waggons). Even if the 'sails' were not capable of moving the wagon along that fast, or at all, on their own they might have taken some of the strain off the animals, allowing them to move further per day as they wouldn't tire out as quickly.
If the settlers were coming from the East Coast there is a very high likelihood that a fair number of them would have some sailing experience - that might even have been the reason for moving West in the first place. This makes it likely that there would have been settlers with the experience and knowledge to build working sails and know how to use them effectively. The image posted in the OP is of something that is actually smaller than many of the boats carried by larger ships, and even a fairly inexperienced former sailor would have been familiar enough with the sails and masts carried by ships boats to be able to duplicate such a rig for a wagon and get it to work.
|
|
|
|
Post by ponytail61 on Jan 7, 2015 1:14:31 GMT
Only 500 pounds of supplies on Peppard's windwagon? Man, he was traveling light. I just found a rundown of the average load in a pioneer's wagon, and basic foodstuffs for a family of four add up to 1484 pounds. Then add on cooking utensils, clothing, tools .... A full-scale reproduction of Peppard's design would be a great way to end the episode, especially if they can run it across prairie. But to be true to the prairie schooner claims, they'd need to test a standard pioneer wagon/load as well. Preppard and his buddies were heading to the gold fields of Denver so they didn't need as much as a family that was going to be setting up a home/homestead. And according to the article here it was mentioned at the time that the machine needed 350 lbs to keep the wheels on the ground. I also imagine you would want to keep it as light as possible for those times that you would have to push/pull it. Here is a pic of the scale model in some stage of being built. It isn't great but the only one I could find. Attachment Deleted |
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Jan 8, 2015 2:18:14 GMT
Observations; The settlers probably used more than one type of wagon, in fact it is reasonable to assume that the 'typical' type of covered waggon might not have actually been the most common. I'd guess that they would have used whatever kinds they could have found, and this was just the largest and best known type. Most of what I've seen says they used farm wagons, and I don't think those were standardized beyond "wagonwright Joe makes them this way, wagonwright Bob does this, ...". But the researchers should be able to find an average size for a farm wagon. "Conestoga" tends to be used as a generic term in the US, but it actually refers to a specific type of large cargo wagon. There may have been some pioneers who could get their hands on a true Conestoga, but it would probably be fairer to test with a (slightly) smaller and lighter farm wagon instead. Good point, and if they can get a local rodeo to help out they'd have access to harness-trained horses and/or mules. (Oxen might be harder to find.) If it's possible to rig a force gauge somewhere in the harness, they should be able to judge how hard the animals are working with sails rigged as opposed to a regular cover. But city gal here -- I have no idea how one would go about rigging that gauge, or if it's even possible. There's a covered wagon at a local museum that isn't all that large, next time I'm there I can try to get a photo with something present to scale it. But the display doesn't say if it's a real one or something that was built for the museum. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jan 8, 2015 2:46:23 GMT
farm wagons tended to be relatively small - since they were made for farm horses which were often general purpose horses rather than draft horses. as you say - most of the people who made the trip just used what they had - and I am getting the idea that the Conestoga was the tractor-trailer of the time period (according to wikipedia, they ran Conestogas with 6-8 draft horses)  |
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Jan 8, 2015 2:49:50 GMT
A more practical way to test would be to use a motor vehicle, a trike might be ideal. Tow a large trailer with the sail furled and note the rpm for a given speed. Then drop the sail and tow it again at the same speed and measure the rpm. If the sail helps move the trailer the rpm's should be lower.
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jan 8, 2015 3:04:52 GMT
A more practical way to test would be to use a motor vehicle, a trike might be ideal. Tow a large trailer with the sail furled and note the rpm for a given speed. Then drop the sail and tow it again at the same speed and measure the rpm. If the sail helps move the trailer the rpm's should be lower. not quite. unless it has a continuously variable transmission, the RPMs will match the speed regardless of loading. however, you could measure fuel consumption to maintain loaded speed - I'd say a tractor with a fuel injected engine rather than a trike - that should better approximate the plodding speed of an ox, and have enough of a change in fuel consumption to be measurable. - plus an easy way to measure the fuel usage. addendum: or use an underpowered tractor and see how the sail changed travel time. |
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Jan 8, 2015 10:32:22 GMT
Observation, When the UK commission set the gauge between the rails as a "standard" for the entire UK rail network, and thus worldwide, as initially we built, or people from England built most of the first railways, they got that gauge from the average measurement of horse pulled wagons (Reportedly Stephenson took an average of the first 100 he saw...) this sums it up a little.. www.steamrailwaylines.co.uk/misc2.htmWagons and wheels were built as required, so came in many sizes, from small get me a days shopping to big I need to move the entire haystack. There was no "average" that was a go-to, people just built (or had built) what they needed. Testing. To test, get a wagon with a following wind, and some experienced horses. Preferably blinkered.... Measure the average speed through a rolling start 100 yd stretch. Reset, but this time, set a sail to "assist". This is where you need blinkered horses, if they are not used to sails, it may startle them?... From what I know of horses, they do not walk at the same speed all the time, they slow down with heavy loads, speed up with lighter loads. So if "assist" is true, the horse will walk the 100yds quicker. |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jan 8, 2015 14:57:29 GMT
Observation, When the UK commission set the gauge between the rails as a "standard" for the entire UK rail network, and thus worldwide, as initially we built, or people from England built most of the first railways, they got that gauge from the average measurement of horse pulled wagons (Reportedly Stephenson took an average of the first 100 he saw...) this sums it up a little.. www.steamrailwaylines.co.uk/misc2.htmWagons and wheels were built as required, so came in many sizes, from small get me a days shopping to big I need to move the entire haystack. There was no "average" that was a go-to, people just built (or had built) what they needed. Testing. To test, get a wagon with a following wind, and some experienced horses. Preferably blinkered.... Measure the average speed through a rolling start 100 yd stretch. Reset, but this time, set a sail to "assist". This is where you need blinkered horses, if they are not used to sails, it may startle them?... From what I know of horses, they do not walk at the same speed all the time, they slow down with heavy loads, speed up with lighter loads. So if "assist" is true, the horse will walk the 100yds quicker. legend has it that the wagon gauges were made to match ruts already in the roads - and the ruts dated back to roman war chariots. but all the same, your horse idea is essentially the same as my underpowered tractor idea. |
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Jan 8, 2015 16:18:47 GMT
Using a vehicle rather than a draft animal is less problimatical, more easy to control and get accurate data from and above all isn't going to get tired.
The bigger problem is wind. MB dislike looking at anything that requires specific weather conditions as they can't predict if they will get those conditions especially in SF.
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jan 8, 2015 16:59:05 GMT
Using a vehicle rather than a draft animal is less problimatical, more easy to control and get accurate data from and above all isn't going to get tired. The bigger problem is wind. MB dislike looking at anything that requires specific weather conditions as they can't predict if they will get those conditions especially in SF. that was my thought, too. of course, the wind could be rendered less of an issue by selecting a test site known for consistent winds. - and ot probably doesn't have to be a prairie - they could use a road near a wind farm to minimize their variables. |
|
|
|
Post by OziRiS on Jan 8, 2015 19:11:39 GMT
To make this a little more fun to watch, why not do one of the smalle scale tests with Adam and Jamie pulling a smaller wagon with bicycles?
If there's any noticable wind assistance with the sail up, they should feel it almost instantly, as they'd have to do less work to get and keep the wagon moving.
|
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jan 9, 2015 6:25:16 GMT
To make this a little more fun to watch, why not do one of the smalle scale tests with Adam and Jamie pulling a smaller wagon with bicycles? If there's any noticable wind assistance with the sail up, they should feel it almost instantly, as they'd have to do less work to get and keep the wagon moving. that would be good. or directly pedaling the wagon might be safer. |
|
|
|
Post by Antigone68104 on Jan 9, 2015 14:11:06 GMT
Using a vehicle rather than a draft animal is less problimatical, more easy to control and get accurate data from and above all isn't going to get tired. The bigger problem is wind. MB dislike looking at anything that requires specific weather conditions as they can't predict if they will get those conditions especially in SF. that was my thought, too. of course, the wind could be rendered less of an issue by selecting a test site known for consistent winds. - and ot probably doesn't have to be a prairie - they could use a road near a wind farm to minimize their variables. What about those large fans they've used in the past? |
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jan 9, 2015 15:11:36 GMT
that was my thought, too. of course, the wind could be rendered less of an issue by selecting a test site known for consistent winds. - and ot probably doesn't have to be a prairie - they could use a road near a wind farm to minimize their variables. What about those large fans they've used in the past? they could certainly do their small scale testing at the naval base with a wind machine as backup. but to clarify - are we testing whether a covered wagon could have wind assist, or are we testing whether a sailwagon would be useful? |
|
|
|
Post by Cybermortis on Jan 9, 2015 15:49:02 GMT
Well, the OP is if the cover on covered wagons could A; Catch the wind enough to provide propulsive force to move it without the use of draft animals. B; Provide enough propulsive force to reduce the strain on the draft animals.
That you could move a wagon with wind power alone isn't exactly a myth, we have land yachts after all, the only limits would be the amount of thrust you'd need to get the mass moving and the size of the sail/mast you'd need.
There is one thing that does occur to me and that is that the 'sails' might have been wind sails - That is sections of cloth designed to redirect a breeze into the wagon and onto the occupants to help keep them cool. Such devices were used on ships, and I can see a former sailor rigging up something like this to stop his family from melting in the back of the larger wagons during hot weather.
|
|
