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Post by the light works on Jul 5, 2017 15:23:45 GMT
I know we keep going back to this unfortunate child but that's not the argument. Granted, this baby has just a about a zero chance of making it. The argument that I am having is who should be allowed to make decisions on any life/death situation of a person, be it a child or adult, that is unable to make that decision on their own. Is it the family/loved ones of that person or the government. For me, it's an easy answer. for me, too. apparently, besides not having a budget in Illinois, they also don't have doctors.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 5, 2017 15:32:37 GMT
I know we keep going back to this unfortunate child but that's not the argument. Granted, this baby has just a about a zero chance of making it. The argument that I am having is who should be allowed to make decisions on any life/death situation of a person, be it a child or adult, that is unable to make that decision on their own. Is it the family/loved ones of that person or the government. For me, it's an easy answer. for me, too. apparently, besides not having a budget in Illinois, they also don't have doctors. There's a few left, but they, like most professionals, are leaving the state rapidly. We are one of the highest taxed states in the country and we are going bankrupt. The solution, of course, is to raise taxes even more. I'm considering leaving the state myself. I hear Organ is a nice place to live.
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Post by the light works on Jul 5, 2017 15:48:08 GMT
for me, too. apparently, besides not having a budget in Illinois, they also don't have doctors. There's a few left, but they, like most professionals, are leaving the state rapidly. We are one of the highest taxed states in the country and we are going bankrupt. The solution, of course, is to raise taxes even more. I'm considering leaving the state myself. I hear Organ is a nice place to live. it is, if you don't mind the state providing services for you, the good news is most ambulance services are private, so you have the combined benefit of them wanting to pay as little as possible for their ambulances and charge as much as possible for the ride. I'm sure you'll approve of that.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 5, 2017 15:53:38 GMT
There's a few left, but they, like most professionals, are leaving the state rapidly. We are one of the highest taxed states in the country and we are going bankrupt. The solution, of course, is to raise taxes even more. I'm considering leaving the state myself. I hear Organ is a nice place to live. it is, if you don't mind the state providing services for you, the good news is most ambulance services are private, so you have the combined benefit of them wanting to pay as little as possible for their ambulances and charge as much as possible for the ride. I'm sure you'll approve of that. A number of years ago, my wife fell getting out of the shower and I had to call 911 for an ambulance. Our local fire department, which is funded by tax dollars, showed up not only with an ambulance, but a fire truck as well. Turns out they send a fire truck to help evacuate the patient when it involves a second floor incident. I have to admit, they did a fantastic job but I did receive a bill for their services. Fortunately, her insurance covered most of it.
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Post by the light works on Jul 5, 2017 16:06:05 GMT
it is, if you don't mind the state providing services for you, the good news is most ambulance services are private, so you have the combined benefit of them wanting to pay as little as possible for their ambulances and charge as much as possible for the ride. I'm sure you'll approve of that. A number of years ago, my wife fell getting out of the shower and I had to call 911 for an ambulance. Our local fire department, which is funded by tax dollars, showed up not only with an ambulance, but a fire truck as well. Turns out they send a fire truck to help evacuate the patient when it involves a second floor incident. I have to admit, they did a fantastic job but I did receive a bill for their services. Fortunately, her insurance covered most of it. our standard dispatch policy is if they dispatch an ambulance, dispatch us, as well. it used to be that the ambulance dispatcher was to dispatch fire if they felt the extra help, or the potentially quicker response time would be beneficial, but the ambulance dispatchers at the time did not seem to have any intelligent standards for triaging calls - so we'd get called for an elderly patient ho had slid out of their chair to the floor, and left out of the loop for a roofer who fell off a second story roof. we still occasionally have times we hear a medic call their dispatch with "umm... have you dispatched fire for this?" and we still have some degree of dispute over whether people who just need a lift back into their chair should just come to us, instead of the ambulance, because you know - your tax dollars at work, Vs. "and we will need your billing address" our policy is we only deliver a bill to a "customer" from the fire department for a traffic crash involving people from outside our tax base, or for cases where someone has willfully done something that wastes our resources. - and even then, our policy is to err on the side of generosity. to use an example, we have a safeway store in town - so even though a safeway delivery truck is not technically part of our tax base, we're still not going to bill if it gets into a crash.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 5, 2017 16:13:15 GMT
A number of years ago, my wife fell getting out of the shower and I had to call 911 for an ambulance. Our local fire department, which is funded by tax dollars, showed up not only with an ambulance, but a fire truck as well. Turns out they send a fire truck to help evacuate the patient when it involves a second floor incident. I have to admit, they did a fantastic job but I did receive a bill for their services. Fortunately, her insurance covered most of it. our standard dispatch policy is if they dispatch an ambulance, dispatch us, as well. it used to be that the ambulance dispatcher was to dispatch fire if they felt the extra help, or the potentially quicker response time would be beneficial, but the ambulance dispatchers at the time did not seem to have any intelligent standards for triaging calls - so we'd get called for an elderly patient ho had slid out of their chair to the floor, and left out of the loop for a roofer who fell off a second story roof. we still occasionally have times we hear a medic call their dispatch with "umm... have you dispatched fire for this?" and we still have some degree of dispute over whether people who just need a lift back into their chair should just come to us, instead of the ambulance, because you know - your tax dollars at work, Vs. "and we will need your billing address" our policy is we only deliver a bill to a "customer" from the fire department for a traffic crash involving people from outside our tax base, or for cases where someone has willfully done something that wastes our resources. - and even then, our policy is to err on the side of generosity. to use an example, we have a safeway store in town - so even though a safeway delivery truck is not technically part of our tax base, we're still not going to bill if it gets into a crash. I don't know what our fire department's official policy is on charging for some services. All I know is I needed their help, I got their help and I was happy to pay for their help.
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Post by the light works on Jul 5, 2017 16:21:00 GMT
our standard dispatch policy is if they dispatch an ambulance, dispatch us, as well. it used to be that the ambulance dispatcher was to dispatch fire if they felt the extra help, or the potentially quicker response time would be beneficial, but the ambulance dispatchers at the time did not seem to have any intelligent standards for triaging calls - so we'd get called for an elderly patient ho had slid out of their chair to the floor, and left out of the loop for a roofer who fell off a second story roof. we still occasionally have times we hear a medic call their dispatch with "umm... have you dispatched fire for this?" and we still have some degree of dispute over whether people who just need a lift back into their chair should just come to us, instead of the ambulance, because you know - your tax dollars at work, Vs. "and we will need your billing address" our policy is we only deliver a bill to a "customer" from the fire department for a traffic crash involving people from outside our tax base, or for cases where someone has willfully done something that wastes our resources. - and even then, our policy is to err on the side of generosity. to use an example, we have a safeway store in town - so even though a safeway delivery truck is not technically part of our tax base, we're still not going to bill if it gets into a crash. I don't know what our fire department's official policy is on charging for some services. All I know is I needed their help, I got their help and I was happy to pay for their help. back in the dark ages, our neighboring district had their own ambulance, and they didn't charge for any services. however, the ambulance company got their foot in the door with a "we'll service the whole county or nothing at all" bid, and in order to win the bid back in any of the fire districts, they have to get ALL the fire districts to add ambulance services. the reason why I specify we don't bill civilians is that when the ambulance company runs out of ambulances, they call us to cover for them, and we bill them for that - because their alternative is to pay their own employees to ensure they don't run out. we can understand, sometimes the whole world falls apart and catches you short on resources - but when you consistently have minimum staffing, despite finding yourself chronically coming up short, enabling your bad habits does nobody any good.
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Post by mrfatso on Jul 5, 2017 20:35:23 GMT
The British Foreign Secretary has had to explain to his Italian contemporary that Charlie award cannot leave London for a hospital in the Vatican. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40503842Firstl there is the court order that says he has to stay in Great Ormond Street Hospital. Then there is the fact that the Doctors say he would not survive being moved.
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Post by the light works on Jul 6, 2017 2:05:54 GMT
The British Foreign Secretary has had to explain to his Italian contemporary that Charlie award cannot leave London for a hospital in the Vatican. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40503842Firstl there is the court order that says he has to stay in Great Ormond Street Hospital. Then there is the fact that the Doctors say he would not survive being moved. which all comes back to the parents demanding miracles and blaming the government for the doctors being unable to deliver.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 6, 2017 2:11:08 GMT
The British Foreign Secretary has had to explain to his Italian contemporary that Charlie award cannot leave London for a hospital in the Vatican. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-40503842Firstl there is the court order that says he has to stay in Great Ormond Street Hospital. Then there is the fact that the Doctors say he would not survive being moved. which all comes back to the parents demanding miracles and blaming the government for the doctors being unable to deliver. More like blaming the government for not allowing some doctors to try.
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Post by the light works on Jul 6, 2017 2:27:41 GMT
which all comes back to the parents demanding miracles and blaming the government for the doctors being unable to deliver. More like blaming the government for not allowing some doctors to try. the doctor whose opinion I look at when I want to know things has chimed in on Charlie's situation. he pointed out some significant things: 1: charlie is one of 16 babies who have been confirmed to have this exact disorder. 2: 15 of those babies have died in infancy. 3: the 16th is currently in a hospital, unable to move on his own, but with no lack of ability to feel the pain of everything that is happening to him. 4: he is currently in the best hospital in the region for taking care of him. 5: any attempt to move him is likely to be fatal. another member of that forum has said that the American doctor has withdrawn the offer upon seeing what Charlie's ACTUAL condition is, as opposed to the pictures posted in the media along with the stories about how the mean hospital isn't letting the parents have their way.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 6, 2017 2:56:23 GMT
More like blaming the government for not allowing some doctors to try. the doctor whose opinion I look at when I want to know things has chimed in on Charlie's situation. he pointed out some significant things: 1: charlie is one of 16 babies who have been confirmed to have this exact disorder. 2: 15 of those babies have died in infancy. 3: the 16th is currently in a hospital, unable to move on his own, but with no lack of ability to feel the pain of everything that is happening to him. 4: he is currently in the best hospital in the region for taking care of him. 5: any attempt to move him is likely to be fatal. another member of that forum has said that the American doctor has withdrawn the offer upon seeing what Charlie's ACTUAL condition is, as opposed to the pictures posted in the media along with the stories about how the mean hospital isn't letting the parents have their way. I'll say it again but I'm sure it will still fail to register. It's not about Charlie. It's about who should make the decision. In my opinion, it's the parents. In yours, it's the government's call. If all the doctors say they can't do anything for him, that's fine and it leaves the parents no choice. But the government won't even let the parents bring their child home to die. They insist that they are the ones that are going to kill him. To me, that totally sucks. When my dad was in the hospital dying of cancer, the doctors all said he would be dead in a matter of days if not hours. We knew that and my dad knew it. My dad asked if he could be sent home to die. Everyone agreed that it was the best for all concerned. It was my dad's last wish and it gave the family closure. I don't see why that can't be done for Charlie's family.
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Post by the light works on Jul 6, 2017 3:23:16 GMT
the doctor whose opinion I look at when I want to know things has chimed in on Charlie's situation. he pointed out some significant things: 1: charlie is one of 16 babies who have been confirmed to have this exact disorder. 2: 15 of those babies have died in infancy. 3: the 16th is currently in a hospital, unable to move on his own, but with no lack of ability to feel the pain of everything that is happening to him. 4: he is currently in the best hospital in the region for taking care of him. 5: any attempt to move him is likely to be fatal. another member of that forum has said that the American doctor has withdrawn the offer upon seeing what Charlie's ACTUAL condition is, as opposed to the pictures posted in the media along with the stories about how the mean hospital isn't letting the parents have their way. I'll say it again but I'm sure it will still fail to register. It's not about Charlie. It's about who should make the decision. In my opinion, it's the parents. In yours, it's the government's call. If all the doctors say they can't do anything for him, that's fine and it leaves the parents no choice. But the government won't even let the parents bring their child home to die. They insist that they are the ones that are going to kill him. To me, that totally sucks. When my dad was in the hospital dying of cancer, the doctors all said he would be dead in a matter of days if not hours. We knew that and my dad knew it. My dad asked if he could be sent home to die. Everyone agreed that it was the best for all concerned. It was my dad's last wish and it gave the family closure. I don't see why that can't be done for Charlie's family. IN MINE, IT IS THE DOCTOR'S, NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S. I KNOW IT IS HARD FOR YOU TO ABSORB THE FACT THAT A SOSHULIZED DOCTOR IS STILL A DOCTOR, BUT TRY.
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Post by the light works on Jul 6, 2017 3:26:34 GMT
Again: It appears the American doctor has withdrawn his offer. it appears the doctors at the hospital have decided that any attempt to move Charlie will be fatal.
so I guess if you want them to start the move and then call the parents to tell them that their child has died in transit, you can offer to negotiate for that.
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Post by the light works on Jul 6, 2017 3:27:49 GMT
and also: Charlie is the patient. therefore, it IS about Charlie.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 6, 2017 3:35:13 GMT
I'll say it again but I'm sure it will still fail to register. It's not about Charlie. It's about who should make the decision. In my opinion, it's the parents. In yours, it's the government's call. If all the doctors say they can't do anything for him, that's fine and it leaves the parents no choice. But the government won't even let the parents bring their child home to die. They insist that they are the ones that are going to kill him. To me, that totally sucks. When my dad was in the hospital dying of cancer, the doctors all said he would be dead in a matter of days if not hours. We knew that and my dad knew it. My dad asked if he could be sent home to die. Everyone agreed that it was the best for all concerned. It was my dad's last wish and it gave the family closure. I don't see why that can't be done for Charlie's family. IN MINE, IT IS THE DOCTOR'S, NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S. I KNOW IT IS HARD FOR YOU TO ABSORB THE FACT THAT A SOSHULIZED DOCTOR IS STILL A DOCTOR, BUT TRY.Ever consider anger management?
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Post by the light works on Jul 6, 2017 3:38:00 GMT
IN MINE, IT IS THE DOCTOR'S, NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S. I KNOW IT IS HARD FOR YOU TO ABSORB THE FACT THAT A SOSHULIZED DOCTOR IS STILL A DOCTOR, BUT TRY. Ever consider anger management? I heard of a new group therapy program called antifa. I hear it is particularly good ate releasing the frustration experienced in dealing with a person who is fixated on the evils of liberal government.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 6, 2017 4:52:49 GMT
Ever consider anger management? I heard of a new group therapy program called antifa. I hear it is particularly good ate releasing the frustration experienced in dealing with a person who is fixated on the evils of liberal government. Not liberal governments, just liberals that can't contain their anger. Seems to be a lot of them since last November.
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Post by mrfatso on Jul 6, 2017 5:55:25 GMT
Charlie can't be sent home to die as in the opnion of the doctors at the hospital he would not even survive that trip, he would be dead before he ever reached his parents house. He would also feel a lot of distress as they tried to transport him, something that they do not wish to do.
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 6, 2017 6:02:36 GMT
I know we keep going back to this unfortunate child but that's not the argument. Granted, this baby has just a about a zero chance of making it. The argument that I am having is who should be allowed to make decisions on any life/death situation of a person, be it a child or adult, that is unable to make that decision on their own. Is it the family/loved ones of that person or the government. For me, it's an easy answer. We Know, and by the sound of your usual posts, I think you may make an informed sensible decision. At the moment. But if it were your child?.. When the family cant make that decision sensibly, when feelings get in the way, they get passionate, overly, and then sentimental, and will not make that call that its time to call time and halt the suffering... Then someone has to step in. And that can only be the highest authority they can find. And then they have someone to blame, someone that isnt them. If the Mum made the call, and the Dad wasnt ready to make that call, or vice-versa, you have a dysfunctional family who will eventually argue and split up. If the gobmint does it, its all evil gobmint, and the have the common enemy to fight. In that unfortunate childs care, they have two very zealous parents who will fight tooth and nail to the last post. You just know this will surface again at some point with "The gobmint killed my child and they was wrong" headline. But when that call absolutely HAS to be made... Who should make it?. Not the family, thats for sure, as the rest of the family will turn on the unfortunate one who has to allow the kid to die. Thats the human condition. Leave it to the family?.. thats the last thing anyone should do.
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