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Post by the light works on May 28, 2015 14:01:32 GMT
Your tyres are built by design to take that change. Try the same with a Nissan Micra, or even an original Mini tyre. right, or a wheelbarrow tire - which would be a good small scale test. I know an air ride system can gauge vehicle weight by the system pressure, but I think the difference with tires is much more subtle.
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Post by silverdragon on May 29, 2015 6:15:09 GMT
Overloaded tyres will deform the side-wall, make them blow out like an under-inflated tyre, which damaged the strengthening bits, like running on a flat. The tyre will roll more into a corner, and out again, giving understeer to oversteer changes that are an absolute hoot when you are driving a heavy load, honestly, especially when your at speed.... [/sarcasm] The tyre will perform like it has been under-inflated. The danger there is those who will add more air to square it up again. They risk the chance of blow outs at high speed. Its not the pressure inside the tyre that aids handling, its the actual shape of the tyre where it hits the road.
Its not that subtle, when driving a small transit (one ton) van, look at the tyres. If the tyres had been at the right pressure but are now bowed out at the bottom, and you cant get a fist on top of the tyre because its too high up in the wheel arch, you are overloaded.
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Post by the light works on May 29, 2015 14:28:08 GMT
Overloaded tyres will deform the side-wall, make them blow out like an under-inflated tyre, which damaged the strengthening bits, like running on a flat. The tyre will roll more into a corner, and out again, giving understeer to oversteer changes that are an absolute hoot when you are driving a heavy load, honestly, especially when your at speed.... [/sarcasm] The tyre will perform like it has been under-inflated. The danger there is those who will add more air to square it up again. They risk the chance of blow outs at high speed. Its not the pressure inside the tyre that aids handling, its the actual shape of the tyre where it hits the road. Its not that subtle, when driving a small transit (one ton) van, look at the tyres. If the tyres had been at the right pressure but are now bowed out at the bottom, and you cant get a fist on top of the tyre because its too high up in the wheel arch, you are overloaded. certainly the SHAPE of the tire is not that subtle. but I am thinking the internal pressure differential is. I would like to see the physics of it written out for ordinary folks, but for example, my Jeep has a huge number of square inches of internal surface on the tires, which inflate to 32 PSI (confirmed by the fact that they wear properly at that pressure) and my Acura had about a fraction of the number of square inches, also inflated to 32 PSI (and confirmed by the fact they wore properly) - both vehicles weighed about the same, and in fact, the Acura, being a front drive car, had about a 66/33 imbalance between the front and the back, but I didn't have to adjust tire pressure when I rotated the tires.
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Post by silverdragon on May 30, 2015 6:10:17 GMT
I cant do the maths, but I can suggest what the maths may be. Taking a simple twin axle trailer, four double tyres making eight in all, at the "right" pressure, holding up say a ten ton trailer.[part loaded]
Add a further 20 tons.
For simplicity sake, we will ignore the fact that some of the weight is distributed through the fifth wheel, buy stating that this extra load has been balanced equally over the rear axles. [yes you can do that if you know what your doing...] [no you WOULDNT do that if you want traction at the cab end...]
You are now adding an extra 2.5 tons in weight per tyre. This is why double wheel axles are used, to spread the weight that way, and thats why you see up to six double wheels, making 12 tyres, on some trailers, those are usually used for heavy weights, where as the 6 single wheels are used for bulky objects where loaded is full by size not weight, and some 4 tyre trailers for extremely light weight loads.
So saying, if you then chose to re-load that trailer onto a single tyre wheel configuration, that would double the weight on that tyre, an extra 5 tons per tyre.
The reason I cant do the maths is because I dont know the tyres that well, some are built to take more weight than others, have thicker side walls, and will deform less, thus the change in internal pressure is less.
But thankfully, those tyres start out at a LOT more than the usual car pressure of ~35~ per wheel, even small transit vans start off with 55psi, so the change in pressure on a loaded wagon will be easier to spot in single psi figures, but, on the other hand, there is more air in there to start with, so it compresses less per square inch of air-space?... So, if you put 5 tons over a car tyre, it will deform (almost flat) far more than if you put the same on a Truck tyre, therefore, the increase in pressure will be more on a car tyre..... I *think*, I aint sure on that one. Car tyres are smaller, therefore, they have less air to be compressed, so pressure increase will be more per square inch?... thats the *obvious* here isnt it?..
Its also why Truck tyres are a lot bigger than car tyres, more air space to compress, therefore, they take change in weight a lot better.
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Post by the light works on May 30, 2015 6:31:03 GMT
I cant do the maths, but I can suggest what the maths may be. Taking a simple twin axle trailer, four double tyres making eight in all, at the "right" pressure, holding up say a ten ton trailer.[part loaded] Add a further 20 tons. For simplicity sake, we will ignore the fact that some of the weight is distributed through the fifth wheel, buy stating that this extra load has been balanced equally over the rear axles. [yes you can do that if you know what your doing...] [no you WOULDNT do that if you want traction at the cab end...] You are now adding an extra 2.5 tons in weight per tyre. This is why double wheel axles are used, to spread the weight that way, and thats why you see up to six double wheels, making 12 tyres, on some trailers, those are usually used for heavy weights, where as the 6 single wheels are used for bulky objects where loaded is full by size not weight, and some 4 tyre trailers for extremely light weight loads. So saying, if you then chose to re-load that trailer onto a single tyre wheel configuration, that would double the weight on that tyre, an extra 5 tons per tyre. The reason I cant do the maths is because I dont know the tyres that well, some are built to take more weight than others, have thicker side walls, and will deform less, thus the change in internal pressure is less. But thankfully, those tyres start out at a LOT more than the usual car pressure of ~35~ per wheel, even small transit vans start off with 55psi, so the change in pressure on a loaded wagon will be easier to spot in single psi figures, but, on the other hand, there is more air in there to start with, so it compresses less per square inch of air-space?... So, if you put 5 tons over a car tyre, it will deform (almost flat) far more than if you put the same on a Truck tyre, therefore, the increase in pressure will be more on a car tyre..... I *think*, I aint sure on that one. Car tyres are smaller, therefore, they have less air to be compressed, so pressure increase will be more per square inch?... thats the *obvious* here isnt it?.. Its also why Truck tyres are a lot bigger than car tyres, more air space to compress, therefore, they take change in weight a lot better. it is still a question of whether the air pressure is controlled by how much the weight that mashes down on the sidewall actually squeezes the air further or if it is just rearranging it. I guess the thing to do if I were feeling ambitious would be to check my front tire pressure, then lift the wheel with a bottle jack and recheck the pressure.
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Post by silverdragon on May 30, 2015 6:35:25 GMT
It is a front engine car isnt it?.. jus' checking you aint got a hang-it-out-the-back thing...
Yes do that, if you have a sensitive enough gauge, you will see maybe a 2psi change on a heavy car... and I suspect you have a heavy American truck your doing that on?...
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Post by the light works on May 30, 2015 6:52:55 GMT
It is a front engine car isnt it?.. jus' checking you aint got a hang-it-out-the-back thing... Yes do that, if you have a sensitive enough gauge, you will see maybe a 2psi change on a heavy car... and I suspect you have a heavy American truck your doing that on?... moderately so. Attachment DeletedAttachment Deletedactually, the grand coup would be to do it with the bronto. then I wouldn't have to use a jack.
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Post by silverdragon on May 30, 2015 7:56:08 GMT
Take that silver thing, load it to the max, take pressure reading of all tyres, unload and get it in jack stands, take pressure again.
Unless you are brave enough to lift a boot on one corner at a time with a jack?.. I have a trolley jack I can trust to do that with.
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Post by the light works on May 30, 2015 8:01:24 GMT
Take that silver thing, load it to the max, take pressure reading of all tyres, unload and get it in jack stands, take pressure again. Unless you are brave enough to lift a boot on one corner at a time with a jack?.. I have a trolley jack I can trust to do that with. actually, I can't take pressure on the rear tires without dismounting the wheels. poor valve stem design.
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Post by silverdragon on May 30, 2015 8:32:13 GMT
Take that silver thing, load it to the max, take pressure reading of all tyres, unload and get it in jack stands, take pressure again. Unless you are brave enough to lift a boot on one corner at a time with a jack?.. I have a trolley jack I can trust to do that with. actually, I can't take pressure on the rear tires without dismounting the wheels. poor valve stem design. So you would have to take the wheels off to check tyre pressure?... Bloody silly idea, when Tyre pressure should be monitored weekly at least......
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Post by the light works on May 30, 2015 8:41:48 GMT
actually, I can't take pressure on the rear tires without dismounting the wheels. poor valve stem design. So you would have to take the wheels off to check tyre pressure?... Bloody silly idea, when Tyre pressure should be monitored weekly at least...... It is a bit of an annoyance. fortunately, I have good reliable tires. - fortunately being an appropriate term, they cost three times what the tires on my wife's pickup cost.
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Post by c64 on Jun 26, 2015 10:21:50 GMT
if you take a pneumatic piston and add weight to it, the air pressure inside it will increase, but I think the elasticity of the tire will significantly reduce the change in air pressure inside. after all, I put two tons of weight on each of my tires, without a significant change in pressure. I'm curious if there is a formula to compare tire pressure to ground pressure, but I suspect it is not very simple. This is correct. You can't just calculate surface of the air filled space and pressure to calculate a load. That's why pressure ratings are independent of the actual load. You can increase the pressure before you put the payload in or afterwards, it doesn't matter. The only important thing is to do that when the tire is cold so you can't really check during the trip when the tires ran warm. You can only check after a long break, not when you start the break. Each tire has a load index which determines if the tire can handle the load. And this is not easy as well. You need to consider many factors, all of them were considered by the manufacturer of the vehicle. For example, the maximum speed rating is only valid for using 93% of the load index. When you brake, the front wheels receive a lot more load and stress than normal. That's why the vehicle load index is defined so high, much greater than you would need for the static load on the tire. The safety margin has increased dramatically about 30 years ago, this is one reason why there are much less accidents due to broken tires at high speeds even if the average speeds have increased. The safety margin was not just increased due to greater engine power of modern vehicles, it was also increased for more safety. And that's why a safe tire pressure is less sensitive to load than it used to be.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 27, 2015 7:00:15 GMT
actually, I can't take pressure on the rear tires without dismounting the wheels. poor valve stem design. So you would have to take the wheels off to check tyre pressure?... Bloody silly idea, when Tyre pressure should be monitored weekly at least...... Just a quick mention whilst this thread has been revived, I have checked, cant find the exacts, but am (bloody sure) that UK "law", maybe MOT law, states that all wheels must have the ability to check tyre pressure whilst stood on the ground. On the trucks I drive, the dual-wheel axles, either have extended valve stems that poke through the outside tyre, or you crawl under and check from inside. I look, do a visual check, kick tyres, and report "suspect" if I think a tyre is under pressure, I aint a mechanic, I "dont know how" to check exacts, just visual faults. As in, I do know, I aint a fool, but, due diligence, I have not been "trained" in tyre maintenance, so, legally, I am not responsible unless you can check via the daily walk-round inspection.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 27, 2015 7:08:18 GMT
Another "Myth"..... this involves "Enthusiasts" who prefer "Concourse" condition cars. The tyres they had when antique cars were invented would be illegal today. So unless you have modern tyres, you cant drive a fully historically correct car on the road.
I do not know how much of that is truth.....
I have, however, been embroiled in a tense argument when I argued that if I owned a certain antique car, the first thing I would do is fit seat belts.
Seat belt law in UK is "Only if fitted as standard", and older cars who did NOT have belts fitted when new, are "Exempt", as no law forces retro-fit.... I think thats bloody silly, but again, see above, you would serially offend the offended who would "devalue" the vehicle if you fitted modern stuff, like safety equipment....
I suggested a bright orange harness fitted to safe anchor points on the vehicle that could be removed if required.
Still no dice, even if removable, it devalues the car if you have ever used them....
I say the person I was arguing with was a bloody fool.
I also say that if the designers of the vehicle at that time "Knew what we know now", they would have fitted belts.
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Post by c64 on Jun 27, 2015 11:39:37 GMT
Just a quick mention whilst this thread has been revived, I have checked, cant find the exacts, but am (bloody sure) that UK "law", maybe MOT law, states that all wheels must have the ability to check tyre pressure whilst stood on the ground. You can. You don't need to put the vehicle into outer space and there is no reason why you can't switch the rear twin wheels inner to outer before checking again... The new EU laws demand that every car licensed after 2014 is able to monitor tire pressure while driving. Now there are two methods to do that: 1) There are wireless pressure sensors in the rims where you can't use third party rims and need to pay a garage to learn in a new set of vehicles manufacturer licensed rims after you bought them or 2) The ESP monitors if the wheels revolve in sync and keeps bugging you to check the tires whenever the road top isn't symmetrical or doesn't tell you anything if the wheels loose pressure evenly.
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Post by c64 on Jun 27, 2015 13:13:44 GMT
Another "Myth"..... this involves "Enthusiasts" who prefer "Concourse" condition cars. The tyres they had when antique cars were invented would be illegal today. So unless you have modern tyres, you cant drive a fully historically correct car on the road. I do not know how much of that is truth..... I have, however, been embroiled in a tense argument when I argued that if I owned a certain antique car, the first thing I would do is fit seat belts. Seat belt law in UK is "Only if fitted as standard", and older cars who did NOT have belts fitted when new, are "Exempt", as no law forces retro-fit.... I think thats bloody silly, but again, see above, you would serially offend the offended who would "devalue" the vehicle if you fitted modern stuff, like safety equipment.... I suggested a bright orange harness fitted to safe anchor points on the vehicle that could be removed if required. Still no dice, even if removable, it devalues the car if you have ever used them.... I say the person I was arguing with was a bloody fool. I also say that if the designers of the vehicle at that time "Knew what we know now", they would have fitted belts. The German regulations for vehicles is rather simple: "Whatever was legal when the car was first licensed is still legal today". This is basically adopted by the EU and in use for most European countries before the European Union laws came up. For example, reversing lights are not mandatory until the mid 1970s. Before they became mandatory for "new cars", they were just meant for your convenience. Originally you had to tap the brakes to see where you are going in the dark or switch on the fog light if you have one. My dad's 1967 Hanomag furniture delivery truck was equipped lots of extras. There was an additional switch which activated two spotlights. One inside the cargo hold of the truck and one sitting on the rear bumper which had a 15ft cable and was detachable. It was useful to load/unload or for repairs in the dark and it doubled as reversing light. Modern cars must have at least one reversing light, the wattage and beam characteristic is defined by rules and it must be controlled by the gearbox. The current German regulation is half a page. The EU adoption is 60 pages... The reason why they are mandatory today is that they are now also used as a visual clue that the car is in reverse gear and may back up. But you don't have to retrofit and the system of my dads truck would be still legal today. Just activating the light while driving forward would be illegal. For seat belts, if the car has seat belts (retrofitted or not) you must use them and you may not remove them. If the car was never equipped with seat belts, you don't need to retrofit them and obviously you don't need to use them. Seat belts and their benefit was long known before they became mandatory (for new cars). But there are reasons why most cars didn't came with seat belts. First of all, back then idiots couldn't afford to own a car, cars were slow and there were not many cars on the roads. So accidents were very rare. ¹⁾ Seat belts were expensive so only luxury cars had them and most ordinary cars had them as option. And all cars capable to exceed 65mph were luxury cars. So today, it is the responsibility of the driver if he needs seat belts or not. People who use their classic cars on a regular basis usually have front seat belts either because the car was a luxury car anyway or they had retrofitted original belts matching the car. A classic car doesn't need seat belts in the rear since they are rarely used to transport passengers. When my sister had married, I had restored a classic car of a friend, he paid the parts and material, my labour was for free. I've even made a replica of the bonnet to bolt the flour bouquet onto so the car could drive with normal speed. There were many reasons why I had picked this car. It was a very unusual car in terms of design and technology and my now brother-in-law loves powerful and good looking cars. It had an unusually powerful engine for that time which was also ultra-quiet. It had 3 times as much space in the rear as modern cars and it had no seat belts for the rear seats. In this case, seat belts would have been a restriction only One of the rare exceptions are turn signals. They had to be retrofitted. Originally, hand or flag signals were used. Hand signals became banned and then flag signals or electric turn signals were retrofitted. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrafficatorsSince 1963, flashing yellow turn signals are mandatory for all cars, no matter if they were already licensed or not. Since most of the flags had a bulb already, the flag signals are still legal if they have a bulb on the end which flashes and there are turn signal lights at the front and rear of the car. Most flags were removed and replaced by a stationary turn signal lights and an additional signal was installed on the rear bumper so the original flags are very rare. Cars with flags in the middle of the vehicle usually just had them deactivated so those cars still have them today and usually now reactivated as a legal additional turn signal. The bulb just needs to flash when the flag is out which isn't original but a good compromise. For using original tires, I would need to ask an expert but I think that you could use them if you find tires which are licensed and less than 7 years old - using tires older than 7 years is illegal anyway. I have seen classic cars with tire replicas which are not licensed so they are only legal for classic car shows, not for public traffic usage. ------------------------- ¹⁾ The first documented car accident in my home town had happened (if I recall right) in 1906. Car accidents were just common accidents and there were no driver's licenses back then so car accidents were not recorded and there was no statistics. There is a street called "An den 8 Bäumchen" ("Near the 8 little trees"). In this particular accident, one was destroyed. This had caused a lot of fuzz since the major had to decide if the street would have to be renamed or if they plant a new one. They did plant a new one and today you can see 7 large ~130 years old trees with a small sick but still living tree which suffered in the shadows of the larger ones for well over 100 years.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jun 27, 2015 13:52:27 GMT
When front seat belts became mandatory in the United States, you had to retrofit older vehicles back to a certain year. I remember this because we had a 1961 Pontiac that we had to take in and have front seat belt installed.
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Post by the light works on Jun 27, 2015 14:01:35 GMT
So you would have to take the wheels off to check tyre pressure?... Bloody silly idea, when Tyre pressure should be monitored weekly at least...... Just a quick mention whilst this thread has been revived, I have checked, cant find the exacts, but am (bloody sure) that UK "law", maybe MOT law, states that all wheels must have the ability to check tyre pressure whilst stood on the ground. On the trucks I drive, the dual-wheel axles, either have extended valve stems that poke through the outside tyre, or you crawl under and check from inside. I look, do a visual check, kick tyres, and report "suspect" if I think a tyre is under pressure, I aint a mechanic, I "dont know how" to check exacts, just visual faults. As in, I do know, I aint a fool, but, due diligence, I have not been "trained" in tyre maintenance, so, legally, I am not responsible unless you can check via the daily walk-round inspection. the problem I have is that it has aftermarket wheel covers, which are not well designed. I could modify the wheel covers but since I also buy tires that don't lose air unless there is damage involved; it is not an issue for me.
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Post by the light works on Jun 27, 2015 14:09:42 GMT
Another "Myth"..... this involves "Enthusiasts" who prefer "Concourse" condition cars. The tyres they had when antique cars were invented would be illegal today. So unless you have modern tyres, you cant drive a fully historically correct car on the road. I do not know how much of that is truth..... I have, however, been embroiled in a tense argument when I argued that if I owned a certain antique car, the first thing I would do is fit seat belts. Seat belt law in UK is "Only if fitted as standard", and older cars who did NOT have belts fitted when new, are "Exempt", as no law forces retro-fit.... I think thats bloody silly, but again, see above, you would serially offend the offended who would "devalue" the vehicle if you fitted modern stuff, like safety equipment.... I suggested a bright orange harness fitted to safe anchor points on the vehicle that could be removed if required. Still no dice, even if removable, it devalues the car if you have ever used them.... I say the person I was arguing with was a bloody fool. I also say that if the designers of the vehicle at that time "Knew what we know now", they would have fitted belts. issue is we have two different groups of classic car people. one group places value on keeping the car as they made it at the factory. some to the point that if the car has any paint newer than what was applied at the factory, you have ruined it. the other group places value on preserving the ability to go for a drive in the car. in America, the original rule is that if the car is kept in its original configuration, then you don't have to add anything that was not originally installed - and interestingly, in Oregon, this includes upgrading the number plate if it was originally fitted with plates that had no expiration date. - our first vehicle registrations were a one time fee, and if you have a car that old with the original license plate (equivalent to tax disc) then it remains valid. it is kind of a bummer that this doesn't extend to fire engines - they only just started to require fire engines to have license plates since I joined the department; and it applies to ALL fire engines. but back on topic - if you have modernized parts of your antique vehicle, then you can be required to modernize the safety equipment if the department of transportation determines that you have upgraded the performance beyond what the vehicle was originally capable of.
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Post by c64 on Jun 27, 2015 15:16:25 GMT
In Germany, you can have a so called "H-license" (H= historic) if: - the car was first licensed 30 years ago or more - the car is in a dignified condition - the car has nothing fixed installed which couldn't have been installed within the first 10 years after it was first licensed The purpose of the "H-license" is to "governmentally sponsor rolling museums". With the H-license, you don't have to pay much tax and your insurance beliefs that you do anything to avoid any damage to your car so you can usually safe a fortune in tax and insurance. You may repaint your car as long as the paint is like paint available within the first 10 years after the car was first licensed. Also you may install any extra which was legal and available during this time. Home made parts and extras are always OK as long as they don't aesthetically change the vehicle. For example while you could have chromed the entire engine of a VW Bug in the 1960s, your 1960 VW Bug won't get the H-license if you do that - even if you had done that before 1970. Another advantage of the H-license is that you can enter the "environmental zones" even if the car isn't compliant for those zones. Your car has to be equipped with a regulated catalytic converter or a rather modern diesel particle filter. H-licensed cars can't have those. So here in Germany, the categories for classic cars are: - Youngtimer ≥ 20 years old - H-license compliant Youngtimer same as above but "original" condition - Oldtimer ≥ 30 years - H-license Oldtimer same as above but officially recognized as "rolling museum" - H-license worthy Oldtimer same as above but not officially recognized. There are good reasons why you don't do the paperwork and inspections to obtain an H-license. The main reason is when the car was licensed all the time so it still has its original license plates. This increases the value of the vehicle dramatically, replacing the plate with an "H" one would destroy this extra value. So a "H compliant oldtimer" can be up to 10 times more worth than if made officially "H". You let a governmental approved inspector do the inspection but don't do the paperwork to get the H-license. Another reason can be a tax loophole. A friend for example owns a car with a Wankel engine. But tax is divided in "Otto" (gasoline) and Diesel. A Wankel is neither even if it uses regular Otto-fuel so there is only the basic tax and the H-license has no benefit there. Worse, since the car is also very light (engine has about 1HP per 1¾ LBS of weight, Engine and transmission weights ~400LBS in total) he pays less tax than if H-licensed since without expert report, he can license it as a tiny car. For the insurance, he has the expert report to save premiums. And when caught in the environmental zones, they may stop him and write him up but he can play his "H-compliant" card to void the ticket.
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