|
Post by the light works on Oct 4, 2015 15:40:10 GMT
DAT is still used in sound studios. The reason why it never made it into homes is that the specifications are so high (even today) that the A/D and D/A circuits still cost a small fortune. The manufacturers refused mixing down the digital signal to match "household" digital audio equipment. Minidisc is still used in radio stations. The drive was too expensive and minidiscs have to be recorded while CDs are designed to be pressed like records. Also the digital compression wasn't good at all, this was pre-mp3 era. But minidiscs are still good for FM quality purposes and more secure than flash memories, CD/DVD-R or HDD. Journalists can trade them and you can put them into shelves. VHS always was pure BS but it was very cheap compared to all other systems. The best low cost system was video 2000 since it made the most out of tape technology for a reasonable price. But the manufacturers had miserably failed to create reliable control circuits and the system always was more expensive. Beta, just like the DAT is too high quality to be cheap enough for home usage. It was used in TV studios before they went all digital. Most "magnetic" TV productions were made with Beta or at least with Beta involved. modern digital movie projectors use HDD packs for the media. not sure exactly how the physical handling happens, but I assume it simply drops into a carrier and the carrier plugs into the projector. a lot of the consumer media competitions have had cases where one media has superior reproduction, while the other has an advantage in convenience. beta videotape systems were limited to two hours playback. 8-track tapes had wider tape, which allowed higher quality recordings, but phillips cassettes had better transport capabilities. my first laptop had an LS 120 drive, which was a combination drive that could play either a 3.5" floppy, OR a 120 MB disc - but Zip already had a foothold in the market, and CD-R technology became cheap enough to make them both look like the expensive option. - and of course, now the thumb drive has replaced them both. I had the option of having a solid state "HDD" in this computer, rendering magnetic storage borderline obsolete.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Oct 4, 2015 16:05:59 GMT
DAT is still used in sound studios. The reason why it never made it into homes is that the specifications are so high (even today) that the A/D and D/A circuits still cost a small fortune. The manufacturers refused mixing down the digital signal to match "household" digital audio equipment. I've been in a number of recording studios in the past few years. Haven't seen any use DAT, or for that matter, any tape based recording anymore other than for playing back old tapes. Everything is done direct to hard drives. The recording projects are then saved to backup drives or more likely flash memory. There are still some studios that advertise that they still use multitrack tape but those are few and far between and mostly cater to their deaf patrons that think analog tape is still better than digital anything.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Oct 4, 2015 16:16:51 GMT
Tube amps work best up to 5W. For more power, you need special tubes which are not only much more expensive, they "burn up" over time so they wear out over a few hundred hours of operation. Up to 10W, the wear is not that great but 20W is a great problem. Jukeboxes and other powerful tube amps need to use TV tubes meant to drive the picture tube. Those are not linear and you need to drive a very high idle current through them. As a result even those heavy duty tubes wear out quickly and they produce X-rays! I've worked on a lot of old high powered, tube driven audio amps, including huge multi kilowatt ones used as modulators for AM radio stations and I have never seen any use plate voltages high enough to produce X-Rays. Usually the plate voltage is around 600 Volts. If they need more power, they just place multiple sets of tubes in parallel. Even the huge modulators only use plate voltages of 1 or 2 kilovolts. I believe you are thinking of the high voltage rectifiers and regulator tubes used in old color TVs. Those were pretty strong X-Ray producers.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on Oct 4, 2015 16:19:44 GMT
DAT is still used in sound studios. The reason why it never made it into homes is that the specifications are so high (even today) that the A/D and D/A circuits still cost a small fortune. The manufacturers refused mixing down the digital signal to match "household" digital audio equipment. I've been in a number of recording studios in the past few years. Haven't seen any use DAT, or for that matter, any tape based recording anymore other than for playing back old tapes. Everything is done direct to hard drives. The recording projects are then saved to backup drives or more likely flash memory. There are still some studios that advertise that they still use multitrack tape but those are few and far between and mostly cater to their deaf patrons that think analog tape is still better than digital anything. This is correct, they do use HDDs - to be more specific network storages. But DAT is still the choice for backups and for transportation. Of course they now often use pendrives for transportation and streamers with more capacity. The problem is reliable backup media. Nothing is more reliable and long lasting than DAT tapes. Flash is the worst form of backup storage since when it dies, it is all gone. With DAT you can still use a different drive (wildly available) and you can glue the tape together if it breaks. Since there is a DAT standard and no streamer standard, obtaining a replacement drive is much more difficult with high capacity streamers.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on Oct 4, 2015 16:24:29 GMT
I've worked on a lot of old high powered, tube driven audio amps, including huge multi kilowatt ones used as modulators for AM radio stations and I have never seen any use plate voltages high enough to produce X-Rays. Usually the plate voltage is around 600 Volts. If they need more power, they just place multiple sets of tubes in parallel. Even the huge modulators only use plate voltages of 1 or 2 kilovolts. I believe you are thinking of the high voltage rectifiers and regulator tubes used in old color TVs. Those were pretty strong X-Ray producers. Until the late 80s, small dosages of X-Rays were ignored so there were no warnings. Nowadays, you can't make and sell a lot of tube technology which was the norm back then. Tubes in parallel don't work well since no tube is alike, the "stronger" tube takes all the work and will be overloaded. So the first method of choice is to increase the anode voltage. There are tricks to force tubes to pair but those lower signal quality significantly.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Oct 4, 2015 20:23:18 GMT
The problem is reliable backup media. Nothing is more reliable and long lasting than DAT tapes. Flash is the worst form of backup storage since when it dies, it is all gone. With DAT you can still use a different drive (wildly available) and you can glue the tape together if it breaks. Since there is a DAT standard and no streamer standard, obtaining a replacement drive is much more difficult with high capacity streamers. That's debatable. Most of the recording studios I've been involved in never did like DAT for long term archival. They just weren't that reliable. I have a number of old DAT tapes that won't play anymore. Of course, part of the problem could be my player. DAT uses a rotating head just like a video recorder and tracking was always a problem when going from one machine to another. The reason DAT never caught on for home use, at least in the U.S. was because of all the stupid copy protection regulations the the RIAA had congress impose on it. You couldn't buy a "home" recorder that recorded at the standard 44.1kHz sample rate that was the standard. Home DAT machines could only record at 48kHz. This was supposed to prevent you from making a direct digital copy of a CD that was recorded at 44.1kHz. The DAT machine I have is a professional recording studio model and will record and play back at either 44.1 or 48kHz sample rate. Flash is also a lot better than it use to be. Most flash failures now are due to operator error in pulling the memory while it's being accessed. A sure way to wipe the entire memory.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 4, 2015 21:01:17 GMT
Mrs TLW's project of the day: take out the Harman Kardon audio system that we haven't been using because I needed to get behind the cabinet and figure out where something came loose, and left the left channel dead, and get rid of it in favor of a new all-in-one set that will have surround sound from the movies, but doesn't have a radio reciever, and won't talk to the CD changer, cassette deck, or playstation. which is okay, because it looks like she plans to get rid of all of them, too. I guess I can add a stereo to the list of things I used to own.
(edit: and I also found out that the thing might have come loose because of her habit of poking around behind the cabinet with the vacuum.)
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Oct 4, 2015 22:21:05 GMT
Mrs TLW's project of the day: take out the Harman Kardon audio system that we haven't been using because I needed to get behind the cabinet and figure out where something came loose, and left the left channel dead, and get rid of it in favor of a new all-in-one set that will have surround sound from the movies, but doesn't have a radio reciever, and won't talk to the CD changer, cassette deck, or playstation. which is okay, because it looks like she plans to get rid of all of them, too. I guess I can add a stereo to the list of things I used to own. (edit: and I also found out that the thing might have come loose because of her habit of poking around behind the cabinet with the vacuum.) What's to talk to a CD changer of cassette deck? Those just have RCA analog connections. True, most A/V receivers use the HDMI connection for the audio, but they all still have RCA analog inputs for older equipment.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 5, 2015 1:25:02 GMT
Mrs TLW's project of the day: take out the Harman Kardon audio system that we haven't been using because I needed to get behind the cabinet and figure out where something came loose, and left the left channel dead, and get rid of it in favor of a new all-in-one set that will have surround sound from the movies, but doesn't have a radio reciever, and won't talk to the CD changer, cassette deck, or playstation. which is okay, because it looks like she plans to get rid of all of them, too. I guess I can add a stereo to the list of things I used to own. (edit: and I also found out that the thing might have come loose because of her habit of poking around behind the cabinet with the vacuum.) What's to talk to a CD changer of cassette deck? Those just have RCA analog connections. True, most A/V receivers use the HDMI connection for the audio, but they all still have RCA analog inputs for older equipment. you haven't seen an all-in-one box set system, have you?
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Oct 5, 2015 2:30:23 GMT
What's to talk to a CD changer of cassette deck? Those just have RCA analog connections. True, most A/V receivers use the HDMI connection for the audio, but they all still have RCA analog inputs for older equipment. you haven't seen an all-in-one box set system, have you? No, not sure what you are referring to. But anything that supposedly drives speakers better have a set of analog inputs or I sure wouldn't buy it. But this brings up another gripe I have. My daughter recently bought an AV receiver and ask me to hook it up for her. No problem, I went over to her place and connected it all up. It had HDMI connections for the TV and cable box but analog connections for her CD player. It also had Bluetooth so she could connect her laptop and play Pandora through the system. The only problem was the tone controls only work on the analog inputs. They assume if you're using any digital input you don't need tone controls. That's crazy. The tone controls are there to compensate for differences in the speaker system and room acoustics as well as to add loudness compensation when listening at low volume levels. Why wouldn't you need them for digital? As it turns out, using the tone controls, the analog devices sound great. All the digital devices sound like crap.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 5, 2015 4:07:03 GMT
you haven't seen an all-in-one box set system, have you? No, not sure what you are referring to. But anything that supposedly drives speakers better have a set of analog inputs or I sure wouldn't buy it. But this brings up another gripe I have. My daughter recently bought an AV receiver and ask me to hook it up for her. No problem, I went over to her place and connected it all up. It had HDMI connections for the TV and cable box but analog connections for her CD player. It also had Bluetooth so she could connect her laptop and play Pandora through the system. The only problem was the tone controls only work on the analog inputs. They assume if you're using any digital input you don't need tone controls. That's crazy. The tone controls are there to compensate for differences in the speaker system and room acoustics as well as to add loudness compensation when listening at low volume levels. Why wouldn't you need them for digital? As it turns out, using the tone controls, the analog devices sound great. All the digital devices sound like crap. it consists of a cheap bluray player, and a 5.1 speaker surround speaker system, and about half as much wire as you need to position them properly. this one is a 3D model, so presumably it will give 3d video if it is plugged into a Samsung 3DTV, which we don't have and I have no plans to buy. some of them have a firewire input for the audio from a cable box, but I don't expect this one to. I am also going to threaten to staple the wires to the ceiling if I am expected to install the silly thing. the Harmon Kardon system has connections for surround sound if I really feel like putting the "rear" speakers in the back of the room - or I can get a proper surround receiver, and still use the 4-way tower speaker system to give cinema volume as well as cinema positioning. - though really the main thing we use the stereo for is to drive the center channel speaker extra loud, which lets us hear the dialogue better. - something the box set also probably doesn't do.
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Oct 5, 2015 6:52:53 GMT
To explain, there are three letters in a box on some CDs, a mix of A or D, One is Digital, the other is Analogue, DDD means its recorded digital, mixed digital, and put on the CD as digital. (Yes you can put an Analogue track on a digital CD.....) Its not the instrument, its the recording process.
The reason DAT never made it into homes in big numbers was the outburst of "Recordable" CD's.... Indestructible, when compared to tape, the last longer without degrading in all cases, and much mush MUCH cheaper as you say, but with the advent of the CD-R, Dat lost there and then.
Wassat?... Erm, new one on me, CD's are supplied blank and the music transferred by a quick "Burn", and thats why the call it "Burn" because of the heat build up.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on Oct 5, 2015 9:33:44 GMT
The problem is reliable backup media. Nothing is more reliable and long lasting than DAT tapes. Flash is the worst form of backup storage since when it dies, it is all gone. With DAT you can still use a different drive (wildly available) and you can glue the tape together if it breaks. Since there is a DAT standard and no streamer standard, obtaining a replacement drive is much more difficult with high capacity streamers. That's debatable. Most of the recording studios I've been involved in never did like DAT for long term archival. They just weren't that reliable. I have a number of old DAT tapes that won't play anymore. Of course, part of the problem could be my player. DAT uses a rotating head just like a video recorder and tracking was always a problem when going from one machine to another. The reason DAT never caught on for home use, at least in the U.S. was because of all the stupid copy protection regulations the the RIAA had congress impose on it. You couldn't buy a "home" recorder that recorded at the standard 44.1kHz sample rate that was the standard. Home DAT machines could only record at 48kHz. This was supposed to prevent you from making a direct digital copy of a CD that was recorded at 44.1kHz. The DAT machine I have is a professional recording studio model and will record and play back at either 44.1 or 48kHz sample rate. Flash is also a lot better than it use to be. Most flash failures now are due to operator error in pulling the memory while it's being accessed. A sure way to wipe the entire memory. The home machines I am familiar with do work with all sample rates but refuse to record 44.1kHz since it might come from a CD and they always set the copy bit so when playing back, the next DAT recorder refuses to record. You can't copy a CD and even worse, you can't copy your own recordings! So you can record your own garage band but you are unable to make a copy of the master tape e.g. to send it away as a demo tape!
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Oct 5, 2015 11:48:35 GMT
This is where Digital Music needs a Computer... Get a something like zero-assumption music file handler on a PC, and that makes things a lot easier. You can then make multiple copies.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Oct 5, 2015 13:23:42 GMT
Recordable CDs are supplied blank and the data "burned " onto them using a laser. Mass produced commercial CDs (and DVDs) are created using a photographic process.
And you are correct, home DAT recorders could play back both sample rates but only record at 48 kHz. The commercial DAT machine I have does not set the record bit so you can make as many digital copies of any DAT tape that you wish.
The CD-R didn't kill DAT as a format for home use. DAT never caught on for home use. It was dead long before the CD-R was available. Recording studios were using CD-Rs for audio recording long before they were available on home computers. The first CD mastering machine I bought cost a fthousand dollars and had a hard drive in it. You would first transfers the material to the hard drive, and then burn the CD. When that machine came out, a blank CD – R cost almost 5 dollars each. And the machine only seemed to have a successful burn rate of 50%.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 5, 2015 14:10:10 GMT
To explain, there are three letters in a box on some CDs, a mix of A or D, One is Digital, the other is Analogue, DDD means its recorded digital, mixed digital, and put on the CD as digital. (Yes you can put an Analogue track on a digital CD.....) Its not the instrument, its the recording process. The reason DAT never made it into homes in big numbers was the outburst of "Recordable" CD's.... Indestructible, when compared to tape, the last longer without degrading in all cases, and much mush MUCH cheaper as you say, but with the advent of the CD-R, Dat lost there and then. Wassat?... Erm, new one on me, CD's are supplied blank and the music transferred by a quick "Burn", and thats why the call it "Burn" because of the heat build up. yes, I do know about the three letter designation. edit: and factory made CDs are either pressed or cast on a mold, much like records. only CD-R and CD-RW are "burnt" - which is why some older CD players may or may not play any given CD-R recording.
|
|
|
Post by c64 on Oct 5, 2015 14:43:38 GMT
About "burning" CDs:
The first generation ROM was hand wired, later a matrix of diodes hand soldered. A present diode is a logical '1', a missing diode a logical '0'.
When silicon chips were used, the ROM was mask programmed. A logical '0' was made by painting a spot on the layout film for production.
For development purposes, making new chips over and over again to debug a program was impossible since highly expensive. Instead a special ROM design was invented and all diodes present while manufacturing the chip. The chip is full of logical '1'. To program them, you selected the memory address to program a byte and then ground the data lines which should be programmed to a zero. The particular diodes in the matrix burn out. This system was then named PROM (Programmable Read Only Memory) and the method of programming was called burning because you really had burned out diodes.
Later a complete different way of storing data in a ROM was invented using transistors instead of diodes. The trick is that you can inject a charge into the transistor by over-voltage which blocks its function. Blocked transistors give a logical '0', unaffected ones a logical '1'. By shining UV light into the chip, the charges drain out. This was called the "EPROM", E for Erasable. The process of programming was still called burning although there was no burning involved any more. Just because you had to put the chip into a programmer which looks the same as using a PROM.
Writing CD-ROM discs was then also nicknamed "burning" in tribute to the old (E)PROM ROM memories.
A commercial made CD is pressed like a record. Instead of big groves, tiny pits are pressed into the surface of the disc. Then aluminium is vapour deposited onto the surface. Then the aluminium surface is painted for protection and then a label is painted on top of the protective layer. The laser shines through the actual body of the disc and hits the aluminium layer beneath the label. When the beam hits a pit, it becomes deflected and won't return to the source.
CD-R are different. Instead of pressing the data into the surface by production, a blank spiral is pressed into the surface. This spiral is then filled with an organic paint which turns transparent when exposed to a lot of light. Like the pressed CD, a reflective layer (at first gold) is added and then the usual protective layers of paint and the label. When writing a CD-R, the data must be written bit by bit which takes time. A pressed mass produced CD is ready when it comes out the production process, a CD-R needs to be written seperately so a CD-R with data on it costs much more to make. Also CD-R is sensitive to light (e.g. direct sunlight), a pressed CD not!
DVDs are slightly different. Since they can be played from both sides, the main data layer is in the middle. Put a DVD-R into real hot water and you will get two discs since you melt the data layer in the middle. Also the manufacturers couldn't settle an argument about DVD-Rs. Half of the manufacturers favoured the CD-R process, the other half wanted really blank discs without the spiral inside. This makes it more difficult to write it and you get more errors in the process but this makes producing blank DVDs easier and the writer doesn't have to track so accurate while burning so the drive mechanics of the writer can be much cheaper. In tribute to the CD-R, the old method was named DVD-R (DVD-minus-R) and the alternative system was named DVD+R (DVD-plus-R). Since about 10 years, all players and all writers can handle both but in the beginning of DVD±R, half of the players on the market were unable to read DVD+R, the other half unable to read DVD-R. This was a great problem and to prevent that licensed third parties could make DVD±R compliant players and dominate the market, the major DVD companies soon came up with drives which could read both but burn only their own favourite version. Nowadays, any modern writer can handle both.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 5, 2015 15:00:14 GMT
actually, DVDs are made in both single and double sided varieties. you can tell the difference because the single sided ones have a label painted on the other side.
here, on DVD-R discs there was also a grand idea by one manufacturer called "lightscribe"
they made their discs and drive mechanism so you could insert the disc upside down in the tray and it would use the record laser to "burn" whatever labeling you wanted to on the top surface of the disc. (however it was prepared to accept that, I never actually did it, but Mrs TLW's old laptop has a lightscribe drive in it.)
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Oct 5, 2015 18:54:12 GMT
actually, DVDs are made in both single and double sided varieties. you can tell the difference because the single sided ones have a label painted on the other side. here, on DVD-R discs there was also a grand idea by one manufacturer called "lightscribe" they made their discs and drive mechanism so you could insert the disc upside down in the tray and it would use the record laser to "burn" whatever labeling you wanted to on the top surface of the disc. (however it was prepared to accept that, I never actually did it, but Mrs TLW's old laptop has a lightscribe drive in it.) There are dual layer recordable DVDs (DVD-R-DL)that have been available for over 10 years now. They hold 8.5G of data and both layers are written and read from the same side.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 6, 2015 0:56:39 GMT
actually, DVDs are made in both single and double sided varieties. you can tell the difference because the single sided ones have a label painted on the other side. here, on DVD-R discs there was also a grand idea by one manufacturer called "lightscribe" they made their discs and drive mechanism so you could insert the disc upside down in the tray and it would use the record laser to "burn" whatever labeling you wanted to on the top surface of the disc. (however it was prepared to accept that, I never actually did it, but Mrs TLW's old laptop has a lightscribe drive in it.) There are dual layer recordable DVDs (DVD-R-DL)that have been available for over 10 years now. They hold 8.5G of data and both layers are written and read from the same side. yeah, I recall something about dual layer DVDs, as well, so in theory you could have double sided dual layer DVDs.
|
|