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Post by silverdragon on Sept 4, 2015 8:47:30 GMT
The Mad Minute.
Wikapedia source is good on this one, but, it raises a question.
I have previously heard this "legend" and am aware that some ranges actively tried to beat or come close to the record.
So the suggestion is, in 60 seconds, at 5 rounds per loading in a Lee Enfield .303 rifle, can anyone actually get so accurate to put 38 hits on a 24inch target at 300 yds.
Thats load 5 rounds from pre-loaded clip, fire, load again, fire, and repeat for at least 8 clips (40 rounds) in 60 seconds hitting that target....
Shots missing the target do not count.
60 div 40 rounds with loading is a fire rate of more than once per second...
On a BOLT ACTION....?...
I call extremely difficult to achieve.....
Yet some try.
For illustration only, Here is an attempt, "Claimed" 19 in 56 seconds. Yet I only see two clips, missing one, so 14 rounds?... hows that then?....
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Post by the light works on Sept 4, 2015 15:48:43 GMT
The Mad Minute. Wikapedia source is good on this one, but, it raises a question. I have previously heard this "legend" and am aware that some ranges actively tried to beat or come close to the record. So the suggestion is, in 60 seconds, at 5 rounds per loading in a Lee Enfield .303 rifle, can anyone actually get so accurate to put 38 hits on a 24inch target at 300 yds. Thats load 5 rounds from pre-loaded clip, fire, load again, fire, and repeat for at least 8 clips (40 rounds) in 60 seconds hitting that target.... Shots missing the target do not count. 60 div 40 rounds with loading is a fire rate of more than once per second... On a BOLT ACTION....?... I call extremely difficult to achieve..... Yet some try. For illustration only, Here is an attempt, "Claimed" 19 in 56 seconds. Yet I only see two clips, missing one, so 14 rounds?... hows that then?.... very poor form with a poorly functioning gun. not to say I could do better, mind you. I've just SEEN better work on a bolt action. |
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 4, 2015 18:38:45 GMT
60 div 40 rounds with loading is a fire rate of more than once per second... On a BOLT ACTION....?... I call extremely difficult to achieve..... Especially when your math is off  40 rounds in 60 seconds comes to 1.5 seconds per shot if you don't count reloading. If you call it one shot per second, you'll have 20 seconds left of the minute to reload 7 times. That comes to 2.85 seconds per reload. Shave just 0.2 seconds off each shot to make it 0.8 per shot and you have an extra 8 seconds for reloading, giving you 4 seconds per reload. Difficult? Certainly! Impossible? Maybe not... Give me 8 hours a day for a month to practice and I'm sure I can get close to that rate of fire. Can't promise you anything on accuracy, though |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 5, 2015 6:36:11 GMT
60 div 40 rounds with loading is a fire rate of more than once per second... On a BOLT ACTION....?... I call extremely difficult to achieve..... Especially when your math is off 40 rounds in 60 seconds comes to 1.5 seconds per shot if you don't count reloading. But I can promise you trouble walking and a sore shoulder..... Lying prone for that amount of time, even when I was fit, a couple of hours on the range flattens things that aint supposed to be that flat. Try sleeping on your stomach.... And even if you do get the hold right, it works on your shoulder eventually, 100 rounds down range hurts a little... more hurts a LOT. It does kick. They hadnt got the idea of recoilless when they invented that rifle. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 5, 2015 7:15:16 GMT
Especially when your math is off 40 rounds in 60 seconds comes to 1.5 seconds per shot if you don't count reloading. But I can promise you trouble walking and a sore shoulder..... Lying prone for that amount of time, even when I was fit, a couple of hours on the range flattens things that aint supposed to be that flat. Try sleeping on your stomach.... And even if you do get the hold right, it works on your shoulder eventually, 100 rounds down range hurts a little... more hurts a LOT. It does kick. They hadnt got the idea of recoilless when they invented that rifle. try yourself a ten bore. common wisdom says never shoot more than twenty shells a day, to avoid "shotunner's hangover" |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 5, 2015 7:36:46 GMT
I have shot Twelve bore, so just under a 10, (In that 10 balls to the lb against 12 to the lb, a ten is bigger than a 12, correct?..) Target shooting, and flying saucers (Clay pigeon).
It was an over-under, and even though I had the padded jacket, Hurt like HELL the next day...
I also cant do that any more, the twisting on my back is hell, so either I wait for the target to present and predict, or suffer the agony of tracking....
Plus shooting stood up is not how I prefer it anyway.
I always was more accurate in prone position.
I can still manage a 90, even a high 90 on a good day....
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 5, 2015 8:25:31 GMT
Especially when your math is off 40 rounds in 60 seconds comes to 1.5 seconds per shot if you don't count reloading. But I can promise you trouble walking and a sore shoulder..... Lying prone for that amount of time, even when I was fit, a couple of hours on the range flattens things that aint supposed to be that flat. Try sleeping on your stomach.... And even if you do get the hold right, it works on your shoulder eventually, 100 rounds down range hurts a little... more hurts a LOT. It does kick. They hadnt got the idea of recoilless when they invented that rifle. I think I'd go for a crouched position to ease the reload. Might not hit that much, but I think it would be my best shot (pun intended) at getting that rate of fire. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 5, 2015 8:31:36 GMT
I have shot Twelve bore, so just under a 10, (In that 10 balls to the lb against 12 to the lb, a ten is bigger than a 12, correct?..) Target shooting, and flying saucers (Clay pigeon). It was an over-under, and even though I had the padded jacket, Hurt like HELL the next day... I also cant do that any more, the twisting on my back is hell, so either I wait for the target to present and predict, or suffer the agony of tracking.... Plus shooting stood up is not how I prefer it anyway. I always was more accurate in prone position. I can still manage a 90, even a high 90 on a good day.... on a ten, an ultralight load is an ounce and a quarter. a "super heavy" 12 gauge load is an ounce and an eighth. I think my slug shells are 2 ounce slugs. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 5, 2015 8:32:28 GMT
but I DID count reloading, and the video sort of shows why... But I can promise you trouble walking and a sore shoulder..... Lying prone for that amount of time, even when I was fit, a couple of hours on the range flattens things that aint supposed to be that flat. Try sleeping on your stomach.... And even if you do get the hold right, it works on your shoulder eventually, 100 rounds down range hurts a little... more hurts a LOT. It does kick. They hadnt got the idea of recoilless when they invented that rifle. I think I'd go for a crouched position to ease the reload. Might not hit that much, but I think it would be my best shot (pun intended) at getting that rate of fire. one clip showed seated with a rest. - not sure the official rule. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 6, 2015 9:46:48 GMT
I think I'd go for a crouched position to ease the reload. Might not hit that much, but I think it would be my best shot (pun intended) at getting that rate of fire. one clip showed seated with a rest. - not sure the official rule. The official rules are "Gentlemen, if you have a jam, raise your arm, please keep all weapons aimed down range, you have 40 rounds at the target in front of you. Obey the basic safety rules that you should have read before now.. commence firing..." I dont think it matters how you do it, just that you do it, and most people prefer a rest. Prone or seated. Wheelchair accessible is encouraged. And it HAS to be done with the same weapon... Some may "Service" it better than others, but you cant go a adding do-wingles and whats-dats, it has to be a basic Lee Enfield .303. |
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 6, 2015 10:24:33 GMT
one clip showed seated with a rest. - not sure the official rule. The official rules are "Gentlemen, if you have a jam, raise your arm, please keep all weapons aimed down range, you have 40 rounds at the target in front of you. Obey the basic safety rules that you should have read before now.. commence firing..." I dont think it matters how you do it, just that you do it, and most people prefer a rest. Prone or seated. Wheelchair accessible is encouraged. And it HAS to be done with the same weapon... Some may "Service" it better than others, but you cant go a adding do-wingles and whats-dats, it has to be a basic Lee Enfield .303. Well, in that case, I'll take crouched with a rest on a table and something soft to put my knee on. That might get me 15-20 hits at that rate of fire. Once I've got the practice, of course. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 6, 2015 10:54:52 GMT
I would still go Prone, but at the range I have seen, where they have raised platforms about Bed height for the less able people to get comfy on and be able to get up again without too much bother.
But then again, I wind my left arm into the strap to get extra stability on the rifle and stop it jumping...
I am a little conventional towards the way I was taught initially by the RAF Cadets all those years back, it worked, I kept doing it, I got good results, so I dont try to "Fix" it.
My first attempt at the .303, the first 5 rounds, got me the crossed rifle "Marksman" badge, but I had already done a few years with the .22 Martina by then.
Attempting the Mad Minute,I would have to DE-Train myself from the breathing exercises, getting on target is enough, I try to get all through "The same hole", thats my training?...
I have never tried speed shooting at all.
I have to mention here, the breathing exercises are relevant.
I still use them...
DSLR Canon without IS (Image stabilisation) requires a steady hand and calm breathing, even with a tripod....
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 6, 2015 12:37:04 GMT
I would still go Prone, but at the range I have seen, where they have raised platforms about Bed height for the less able people to get comfy on and be able to get up again without too much bother. But then again, I wind my left arm into the strap to get extra stability on the rifle and stop it jumping... I am a little conventional towards the way I was taught initially by the RAF Cadets all those years back, it worked, I kept doing it, I got good results, so I dont try to "Fix" it. My first attempt at the .303, the first 5 rounds, got me the crossed rifle "Marksman" badge, but I had already done a few years with the .22 Martina by then. Attempting the Mad Minute,I would have to DE-Train myself from the breathing exercises, getting on target is enough, I try to get all through "The same hole", thats my training?... I have never tried speed shooting at all. I have to mention here, the breathing exercises are relevant. I still use them... DSLR Canon without IS (Image stabilisation) requires a steady hand and calm breathing, even with a tripod.... And that's why I'd need a month to train and also why I'd crouch instead of going prone: To DE-train myself and find a new way of doing things, because I just don't see the mechanics of a 4 second reload working from a prone position. Not for me, anyway. For me it takes 1-2 seconds more to change a mag on an M16 when I'm prone, simply because the ground is in my way and I have to tilt the rifle. The force required to press the rounds from the clip into the mag that fast is easier to get when you can put some weight into the push. That's hard to do when 98% of your body weight is behind the rifle instead of above it and your head, shoulders and arms are in an unnatural position. Not to mention that you'd probably get into a few arguments with the ground beneath you, banging your elbows down into it, not being able to get the rifle low enough to exert some push during the reload (especially with a rest under the rifle), not being able to tilt the rifle properly and quickly enough if a casing doesn't make it all the way out on the loading cycle and so on. That's why I'd do it crouched or even standing. More freedom of movement. Not to mention better coordination, because when my head is above the rifle and not behind it, it makes it easier to see what I'm doing. |
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Post by the light works on Sept 6, 2015 14:28:54 GMT
well, no do-wingies or modifications allowed knocks out my idea of doing it with the L1A1 and two 20 round boxes...  I would be inclined to do it seated with a rest, for the same basic reasons as Oz. of course, I would be either handicapped or advantaged by the simple fact I am left handed. if the mechanics worked, I could keep my right hand on the bolt to stabilize it on the rest. if they didn't I'd be moving my hand from the bolt to the foregrip for every shot. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 7, 2015 7:27:43 GMT
Questions for further analysis.
1 Under-over-under-over, or "Diagonal" clip loading, where its under the last but over the next....
...I see the traditional being usurped by "Its easier this way" diagonal, does it matter, and why.
2 Left handed, keep the finger on the trigger whilst operating the bolt with the right, is "faster" anyway, presuming either bi-pod stand or sandbags.
(So TLW, are you really at a disadvantage there?... presuming you dont, like me, anchor your weapon with the shoulder strap wrapped round your "other" arm...?..)
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 7, 2015 7:56:08 GMT
Questions for further analysis. 1 Under-over-under-over, or "Diagonal" clip loading, where its under the last but over the next.... ...I see the traditional being usurped by "Its easier this way" diagonal, does it matter, and why. Can you perhaps explain that in another way, because I didn't understand any of that 2 Left handed, keep the finger on the trigger whilst operating the bolt with the right, is "faster" anyway, presuming either bi-pod stand or sandbags. (So TLW, are you really at a disadvantage there?... presuming you dont, like me, anchor your weapon with the shoulder strap wrapped round your "other" arm...?..) That's another reason I'd go for crouched or standing. Toying around with operating the bolt with my left hand to see if that would be faster. Doing that while lying down would mean tilting the rifle on every loading cycle, which would take longer than just moving the right hand away from the trigger, not to mention taking the rifle off target every time and having to reset before firing the next round. I'm not sure it would be faster to operate the bolt with my left hand, but trying it out would certainly be easier from a crouched or standing position. |
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 7, 2015 8:04:16 GMT
Questions for further analysis. 1 Under-over-under-over, or "Diagonal" clip loading, where its under the last but over the next.... ...I see the traditional being usurped by "Its easier this way" diagonal, does it matter, and why. Can you perhaps explain that in another way, because I didn't understand any of that Simply, the bottom rims of the .303 overlap, either overlap "one down one up" where the whole rim is either above or below the next rim, or over the top of the previous every time... Pictorially, the rims are either _-_-_ or \ \ \ \ \ Does that help?... |
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Post by the light works on Sept 7, 2015 13:12:50 GMT
Questions for further analysis. 1 Under-over-under-over, or "Diagonal" clip loading, where its under the last but over the next.... ...I see the traditional being usurped by "Its easier this way" diagonal, does it matter, and why. 2 Left handed, keep the finger on the trigger whilst operating the bolt with the right, is "faster" anyway, presuming either bi-pod stand or sandbags. (So TLW, are you really at a disadvantage there?... presuming you dont, like me, anchor your weapon with the shoulder strap wrapped round your "other" arm...?..) maybe, maybe not. if the gun is stable, and the heel of the bolt does not hit me in the cheekbone, then yes, it is an advantage. if I have to move the gun to make room for the bolt, and/or if I have to move my hand from the foregrip after each shot, it is not. with a .22 caliber, I can match the speed and accuracy of the average shooter with a mini 14. (cheap common semiauto .22 rifle)but the bolt is only moving 2 inches. |
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 7, 2015 13:13:23 GMT
Can you perhaps explain that in another way, because I didn't understand any of that Simply, the bottom rims of the .303 overlap, either overlap "one down one up" where the whole rim is either above or below the next rim, or over the top of the previous every time... Pictorially, the rims are either _-_-_ or \ \ \ \ \ Does that help?... So, we're talking about the rims of the cartridges here, how they're placed in the clip and if one of the two placements you mention has an advantage over the other? |
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Post by the light works on Sept 7, 2015 13:15:28 GMT
Can you perhaps explain that in another way, because I didn't understand any of that Simply, the bottom rims of the .303 overlap, either overlap "one down one up" where the whole rim is either above or below the next rim, or over the top of the previous every time... Pictorially, the rims are either _-_-_ or \ \ \ \ \ Does that help?... thanks, I was thinking ways of laying out the loaded clips and scratching my head. the strippers for the SKS, which I am most familiar with, don't overlap the rims of the cartridges. |
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