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Post by wvengineer on Oct 19, 2015 22:59:22 GMT
I saw an article about a company who is developing an anti-drone "rifle." Rifle in that it is handled like one. No actual projectile. It operates by sending a short pulse of radio noise to monetary disrupt the control signal between the drone on the control device. www.gizmag.com/battelles-dronedefender-beam-gun-uavs/39885/Like or hate drones, this is a dud. 1. FCC rules (part 15) prohibit intentional jamming of other devices. Even law enforcement must adhear to that and cannot jam cell phones (Enforcement Advisory 2014-05). Under FCC rules, such a device is illegal in the US. Most other countries likely have something similar. 2. All this does is momentary disrupt the signal between the control and drone. Once the "rifle" stops transmitting, it can re-establish contact and resume it's activity. Most drones have a "fail-safe" that will either go stationary or will slowly descend. 3. If the drone is flying a path that is coded onboard, the this is useless. 4. The frequencies used or power levels are not specified in this, but I wonder about the potential for RF burns due to your face being right next to UHF or microwave high gain antenna. 5. This could easily disrupt legal use of drones and GPS. The first time it does, they can get hit hard for violating FCC part 15 rules. So an interesting, if dead end, idea. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 20, 2015 4:29:57 GMT
I saw an article about a company who is developing an anti-drone "rifle." Rifle in that it is handled like one. No actual projectile. It operates by sending a short pulse of radio noise to monetary disrupt the control signal between the drone on the control device. www.gizmag.com/battelles-dronedefender-beam-gun-uavs/39885/Like or hate drones, this is a dud. 1. FCC rules (part 15) prohibit intentional jamming of other devices. Even law enforcement must adhear to that and cannot jam cell phones (Enforcement Advisory 2014-05). Under FCC rules, such a device is illegal in the US. Most other countries likely have something similar. 2. All this does is momentary disrupt the signal between the control and drone. Once the "rifle" stops transmitting, it can re-establish contact and resume it's activity. Most drones have a "fail-safe" that will either go stationary or will slowly descend. 3. If the drone is flying a path that is coded onboard, the this is useless. 4. The frequencies used or power levels are not specified in this, but I wonder about the potential for RF burns due to your face being right next to UHF or microwave high gain antenna. 5. This could easily disrupt legal use of drones and GPS. The first time it does, they can get hit hard for violating FCC part 15 rules. So an interesting, if dead end, idea. It appears this is designed for paramilitary applications, so it may not be a complete dead end - but it isn't end user technology. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 23, 2015 9:05:29 GMT
Most intelligent drones work on an assumption of "lost signal", Out of Range software will take over if that happens.
The usual response is stay geo-stationary (stop flying in any direction) and try to re-connect, and then on fail of signal, there is usually a "Default" action of re-trace flight path to pre-programmed spot to re-acquire the signal.
I know (some) Military drones are pre-programmed with a secondary target or return to base flight path "Just in case", either the primary target gets too "Hot", loss of signal, or damage to areal.
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 23, 2015 9:07:02 GMT
I would have thought a better anti-drone technology would be a Spider-man Web slinger that can disable the drones ability to fly, and ground the thing, either to hold for ransom or steal the technology....
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Post by the light works on Oct 23, 2015 14:00:20 GMT
Most intelligent drones work on an assumption of "lost signal", Out of Range software will take over if that happens. The usual response is stay geo-stationary (stop flying in any direction) and try to re-connect, and then on fail of signal, there is usually a "Default" action of re-trace flight path to pre-programmed spot to re-acquire the signal. I know (some) Military drones are pre-programmed with a secondary target or return to base flight path "Just in case", either the primary target gets too "Hot", loss of signal, or damage to areal. so you didn't notice that it also wipes out its sat-nag connection? |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 24, 2015 6:56:23 GMT
Most intelligent drones work on an assumption of "lost signal", Out of Range software will take over if that happens. The usual response is stay geo-stationary (stop flying in any direction) and try to re-connect, and then on fail of signal, there is usually a "Default" action of re-trace flight path to pre-programmed spot to re-acquire the signal. I know (some) Military drones are pre-programmed with a secondary target or return to base flight path "Just in case", either the primary target gets too "Hot", loss of signal, or damage to areal. so you didn't notice that it also wipes out its sat-nag connection? Loss of sat nag in a system that keeps a "Map" of last good connection(s), it could easily "Remember" where it has been and go back there, to try and re-acquire connection. ?. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 24, 2015 7:44:03 GMT
so you didn't notice that it also wipes out its sat-nag connection? Loss of sat nag in a system that keeps a "Map" of last good connection(s), it could easily "Remember" where it has been and go back there, to try and re-acquire connection. ?. how does it know it is going back to where it has been? |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 24, 2015 7:57:31 GMT
Loss of sat nag in a system that keeps a "Map" of last good connection(s), it could easily "Remember" where it has been and go back there, to try and re-acquire connection. ?. how does it know it is going back to where it has been? I am not a drone programmer... But, on my limited knowledge of coding... I am sending out a drone with intention of going to target, with the knowledge that its only sensible to expect some anti-drone action. Even interference from other radio signals. I would plan ahead, and "Expect" interference, and, build in a map. (Of sorts, an electronic version, not a a-z...) The drone would continually store its flight path, including heading, time on that heading, and speed (Relative), therefore, if it gets "lost", it should ave the ability to.... 1 raise altitude to get away from ground interference. 2 turn round and "Retrace" the steps in memory 3 seek to re-connect to lost signals. 4 have a pre-programmed agreed meeting point to go back to "When all else fails" and have an ability to get there without satellite signal. All drones should have a "When all else fails" failsafe in them somewhere?... If not, you didnt build it properly. Some drones have terrain following radar, some work on visual images, some have support aircraft "angels high". I believe some of the modern drones have the "Angels High" AWACS type systems above them, if the get lost, they will try to establish a link with that aircraft. More importantly, If I, a mere TRUCK DRIVER, can come up with this, I suspect they have already had this planning meeting?... I believe I have heard something somewhere that stated "Fly circles until signal regained", but that was before geo-stationary software and satellite comms were invented. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 24, 2015 8:04:02 GMT
how does it know it is going back to where it has been? I am not a drone programmer... But, on my limited knowledge of coding... I am sending out a drone with intention of going to target, with the knowledge that its only sensible to expect some anti-drone action. Even interference from other radio signals. I would plan ahead, and "Expect" interference, and, build in a map. (Of sorts, an electronic version, not a a-z...) The drone would continually store its flight path, including heading, time on that heading, and speed (Relative), therefore, if it gets "lost", it should ave the ability to.... 1 raise altitude to get away from ground interference. 2 turn round and "Retrace" the steps in memory 3 seek to re-connect to lost signals. 4 have a pre-programmed agreed meeting point to go back to "When all else fails" and have an ability to get there without satellite signal. All drones should have a "When all else fails" failsafe in them somewhere?... If not, you didnt build it properly. Some drones have terrain following radar, some work on visual images, some have support aircraft "angels high". I believe some of the modern drones have the "Angels High" AWACS type systems above them, if the get lost, they will try to establish a link with that aircraft. More importantly, If I, a mere TRUCK DRIVER, can come up with this, I suspect they have already had this planning meeting?... I believe I have heard something somewhere that stated "Fly circles until signal regained", but that was before geo-stationary software and satellite comms were invented. well, the rifle would have trouble jamming the visuals. but it would take a LOT more programming for the drone to be able to navigate by sight. pull up and try to reacquire signal would be the best it could do with a broad spectrum jamming device aimed at it. thing is, if you, a mere truck driver can think of this, don't you think the people working on a means of disabling the drone can, also. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 24, 2015 9:05:36 GMT
Yes, but no, but.....
If you invent a better lock, you invite a better lock-pick.
This is why I put the "Fail-safe" of remember your route and re-trace.
Even if its a not too accurate and gets back about a mile out of where it should be, chances are, you notice its off course, and start looking for it, and "Aim a better signal" at it?..
The power needed to put in a long range disabling signal are almost impossible for a mobile signal jammer...
All the drone has to do is get maybe one "cell tower" away from the jam signal, and its back in business, meanwhile, reporting back the possibility of enemy action on its last known co-ordinates.
If the drone has any military armament, it could also "Lock on" to the signal being broadcast at it, and send a little gift that way?...
This is the way of war-games.
Evolution of the battlefield.
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Post by the light works on Oct 24, 2015 14:02:34 GMT
Yes, but no, but..... If you invent a better lock, you invite a better lock-pick. This is why I put the "Fail-safe" of remember your route and re-trace. Even if its a not too accurate and gets back about a mile out of where it should be, chances are, you notice its off course, and start looking for it, and "Aim a better signal" at it?.. The power needed to put in a long range disabling signal are almost impossible for a mobile signal jammer... All the drone has to do is get maybe one "cell tower" away from the jam signal, and its back in business, meanwhile, reporting back the possibility of enemy action on its last known co-ordinates. If the drone has any military armament, it could also "Lock on" to the signal being broadcast at it, and send a little gift that way?... This is the way of war-games. Evolution of the battlefield. if it is under active control, you notice as soon as you only get static back. but yes, if jamming becomes a thing, drones will have to be made to respond to it. but the point of jamming is denial-of-information (and by that I mean ANY information.) so optimally, the jammer might interfere with internal communication, too, or might be coupled with an EMP to do the same. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 25, 2015 1:36:48 GMT
Yes, but no, but..... If you invent a better lock, you invite a better lock-pick. This is why I put the "Fail-safe" of remember your route and re-trace. Even if its a not too accurate and gets back about a mile out of where it should be, chances are, you notice its off course, and start looking for it, and "Aim a better signal" at it?.. The power needed to put in a long range disabling signal are almost impossible for a mobile signal jammer... All the drone has to do is get maybe one "cell tower" away from the jam signal, and its back in business, meanwhile, reporting back the possibility of enemy action on its last known co-ordinates. If the drone has any military armament, it could also "Lock on" to the signal being broadcast at it, and send a little gift that way?... This is the way of war-games. Evolution of the battlefield. if it is under active control, you notice as soon as you only get static back. but yes, if jamming becomes a thing, drones will have to be made to respond to it. but the point of jamming is denial-of-information (and by that I mean ANY information.) so optimally, the jammer might interfere with internal communication, too, or might be coupled with an EMP to do the same. Had a "Work" call to had to go, but, spent some time thunking this through. I dont think I thinked all the thunks, but here goes?... The power requirements wont make it all that portable. EMP at a "drone" will deplete the batteries pretty quick if it is... and the drone will then just re-acquire signal, as I am presuming the know about anti-emp shielding by now. The drone is going to be high level, getting a signal up that high?... needs a lot of power. These "rifles" may be useful for a static target you are protecting, and expecting drones, but how else would you know to expect one. So having one "handy just in case"?... Satellite coms will be on the top of the drone aircraft, pretty easy to shield that areal against underneath signals trying to jam it?... Broad-range jamming signals consume a lot of power.... I can see some limited ability to protect an area from drones, but thats going to be a BIG signal, and it will get noticed. In fact, if you have a HUGE target thats emitting anti-drone-jamming signal, you may as well paint it red and put some cross-hairs on it as well... your going to get some interest into why you are jamming drones, especially from military, as DDOS attempts are illegal?..(Denial of service) especially in blocking satellite coms and sat-nav. I think there are more questions than answers... Possible, but probably "Only once" as technology would be upgraded to deal with the attempt. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 25, 2015 1:38:26 GMT
In all, wouldnt it just be easier to shoot the bloody thing out of the air with conventional weapons?...
Dragons KISS, Keeping it simple.
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Post by the light works on Oct 25, 2015 3:17:00 GMT
In all, wouldnt it just be easier to shoot the bloody thing out of the air with conventional weapons?... Dragons KISS, Keeping it simple. most likely. however, an anti drone rifle would be a speed of light weapon, targeting by the one thing ECM doesn't work on. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 25, 2015 15:30:20 GMT
If it is an armed military drone you could easily program it to automatically detect and fire at any such device.
'Sight' in terms of drones doesn't mean using light, it is about ground mapping radar systems. Although you could potentially jamb such radar this would require a lot of technical expertise, the specs for the radar system you want to jamb and/or something a lot larger than a 'rifle' that is likely to result in an airstrike.
Military communications are encrypted and designed to deal with jamming. You *might* be able to disrupt communications between the drone and its base, you most likely couldn't affect signals from the base to the drone. So this bit of equipment would probably only be effective against civilian drones...and the use of such technology would land you in far more trouble than it would be worth in most countries. For a start it would mess up the navigation systems of aircraft in general, which means you'd be charged with terrorism. Then they would charge you with making an illegal radio broadcast and if it messed up, say a pacemaker, attempted murder.
Meaning you'd be spending the rest of your life in prison.
Heck, just owning one of these things could be considered terrorism in most countries.
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Post by the light works on Oct 25, 2015 15:49:18 GMT
If it is an armed military drone you could easily program it to automatically detect and fire at any such device. 'Sight' in terms of drones doesn't mean using light, it is about ground mapping radar systems. Although you could potentially jamb such radar this would require a lot of technical expertise, the specs for the radar system you want to jamb and/or something a lot larger than a 'rifle' that is likely to result in an airstrike. Military communications are encrypted and designed to deal with jamming. You *might* be able to disrupt communications between the drone and its base, you most likely couldn't affect signals from the base to the drone. So this bit of equipment would probably only be effective against civilian drones...and the use of such technology would land you in far more trouble than it would be worth in most countries. For a start it would mess up the navigation systems of aircraft in general, which means you'd be charged with terrorism. Then they would charge you with making an illegal radio broadcast and if it messed up, say a pacemaker, attempted murder. Meaning you'd be spending the rest of your life in prison. Heck, just owning one of these things could be considered terrorism in most countries. however, it would have an application as a military defense against IED drones. overall, I think it is one of those oddball defense against an oddball threat items. - made for cases where the 2 million dollar ECM suite in the command truck wasn't designed with the particular threat in mind - and this is a man portable device that fills the gap. although being a broad spectrum jammer, it doesn't matter whether the signal is encrypted or not, it is just based on making enough background noise to interfere with it. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 26, 2015 8:11:59 GMT
Raise that by 50,000 ft and put "wings" on it, (and a couple of big-a$$ engines or four), and you have what I was supposed to be keeping in the sky when I was in the RAF....
Some Command stations have been airborne for a while.
Nimrods were not just a Radar AWACS system.
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