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Post by silverdragon on Dec 10, 2015 11:27:14 GMT
Octagonal cannon, and square cannon balls.... And why not?... Watching a documentary on the raising of the Mary Rose, I was intrigued as to the making of the cannons... Did we have this discussion before elsewhere?.. I am looking at those cannons in that pic, and wondering.... Did they make them in strips welded that way, then bore them out?.. Were they "Cast" that way in a mould the same way they do bells?... Did they have the technology back then to make them out of say Bronze, or something stronger?... Was there any benefit to the shape, or was it just "decoration" to have them that shape?... They documentary went on to describe the sheer number and different type of cannon on the Mary Rose. It was well armed, and many different types, obviously for different jobs. That we know. Your waiting for it, I know.... Square cannon balls.... During the restoration of the Mary Rose, many of the lead cannon balls that had been put in storage (In the hundreds) for later inspections, unexpectedly started to show signs of rust.... LEAD balls showing RUST?. We HAVE discussed this before, in that in the casting of cannon balls, they often hid stone bricks and flint inside, "Just to save lead", and possibly time, in casting the balls. Anyway, being that during that restoration they were breaking ground on new archaeological techniques, they decided to try and X-Ray a ball to see what was making it rust. They expected that they had hidden scraps of other waste metal inside during casting... They got a Square CUBE inside of iron/steel... The question was asked, being that the lead may deform at high temp and high speed, was this the first sort of idea of Armour Piercing?... The documentary stopped the discussion and changed track at that point, and never returned to it, at my anguish.... So I am here to ask, would sticking a large cube of steel inside a lead sphere make a good AP round from a cannon?... And I am also bloody annoyed that I didnt get to ask this earlier, because I just know Adam and Jamie would relish the idea to test this one if it was put as a myth. So what do you think?... My own personal guestimate would be that yes, yes it WOULD be a good AP round, if fired right. Any way we could test this with a lead shot cannon?.. anyone got one handy?.. (Looking at YOU Cyber?...) The test would have to be of periodic cannon comparison, as I am sure later steel shot cannon would be no comparison.
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Post by the light works on Dec 10, 2015 15:38:20 GMT
cannon barrels were originally built in the same technique as regular barrels were - shaped staves banded together. so the external shape of the barrels may have originally reflected that. the age of those appears to be such that it is more done for appearance than to save smoothing it out. I suspect that was essentially a form of branding - it appears that that ship collected cannon wherever it could get them, and thus had barrels from multiple different makers.
as to iron core cannonballs. I would suppose a shaped iron core would - if hitting a "hard" target (meaning harder than lead) allow the lead to be pressed off from the core, and at least sometimes, a focused point would hit rather than the square core hitting perfectly flat.
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Post by wvengineer on Dec 11, 2015 2:55:20 GMT
While they originally were built like that, they went to casting processes fairly early. Forming the barrel up from individual pieces let too much room for error, which could have energetic results. Too many voids and weak points for something to go bad with.
Casting was done for a LONG time. Cast bronze cannons have been dated to the 1300's. Since then Cast iorn and cast steel took over. It was only in the late 1800's that they started doing forged barrels on a large scale when technology made it practical. Most likely the octagonal shaped barrel is a result from the casting. Either a result of the mold used and then not finished, or they could intentionally leave it like that to reduce the chance of it rolling around the factory or a ship if it got loose from it's mounting.
As far as the cubical core in a ball, my guess would be simply, that a cube is a easy to manufacture (i,e, cheap) shape. Regarding the AP properties, I could see it. It is the same idea as modern AP rounds. A steel core in a soft coper jacket to engage the barrel and threads. The jacket takes care of the areodynamics during flight and the energy of the steel takes over on impact
I could also see the steel cube having several advantages. It would be easier to control the composition of the ball with a steel cube and make sure it stays where you want it. This also keeps it centered. If it wasn't centered, it would throw the cannonball's trajectory off.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 11, 2015 8:02:45 GMT
So perhaps the octagonal (or even more sides?) were more a traditional shape than we think?.. we NOW thing of cannon being perfect cylinders, but we have had 400 yrs more "tradition" than they had.
Agreed, but, the ability to do long perfect cylinders?... thats the "easy" part?...
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Post by the light works on Dec 11, 2015 15:51:22 GMT
So perhaps the octagonal (or even more sides?) were more a traditional shape than we think?.. we NOW thing of cannon being perfect cylinders, but we have had 400 yrs more "tradition" than they had. Agreed, but, the ability to do long perfect cylinders?... thats the "easy" part?... it also looks to me like a lot of it was styling. after all, it is only recently that carmakers have all started making their cars look identical.
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Post by the light works on Dec 11, 2015 15:53:22 GMT
It just occurred to me a rigid core might also help prevent the ball from being deformed though handling and storage. - that would be one for someone with better metallurgical knowledge than me to confirm or reject.
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Post by wvengineer on Dec 12, 2015 12:43:13 GMT
So perhaps the octagonal (or even more sides?) were more a traditional shape than we think?.. we NOW thing of cannon being perfect cylinders, but we have had 400 yrs more "tradition" than they had. Agreed, but, the ability to do long perfect cylinders?... thats the "easy" part?... When you are doing a casting, the finished shape depends on the mold that is used. Doing some research, the traditional way of doing castings were to use either packed clay, wood, or wax. Use of packed sand was first recorded in the mid 1500's. It doesn't matter the medium, but forming a perfect cylinder out of any of the above is much easier than in the finished metal.
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Post by the light works on Dec 12, 2015 16:07:09 GMT
So perhaps the octagonal (or even more sides?) were more a traditional shape than we think?.. we NOW thing of cannon being perfect cylinders, but we have had 400 yrs more "tradition" than they had. Agreed, but, the ability to do long perfect cylinders?... thats the "easy" part?... When you are doing a casting, the finished shape depends on the mold that is used. Doing some research, the traditional way of doing castings were to use either packed clay, wood, or wax. Use of packed sand was first recorded in the mid 1500's. It doesn't matter the medium, but forming a perfect cylinder out of any of the above is much easier than in the finished metal. forming a perfect cylinder in the mold is no more difficult than forming a perfect cylinder in what you are using to shape your mold. a barrel constructed of staves might have a geometric barrel due to the stave construction. a cast barrel could be geometric because of the construction of the form the mold was made on, or it could be done on purpose. - with the complexity of the barrels in the image, I suspect it was on purpose.
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Post by the light works on Dec 12, 2015 16:09:06 GMT
also, the round collars and the lugs for mounting in the carriages would imply the shaped barrels were NOT done to prevent rolling.
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Post by OziRiS on Dec 13, 2015 0:02:59 GMT
When you are doing a casting, the finished shape depends on the mold that is used. Doing some research, the traditional way of doing castings were to use either packed clay, wood, or wax. Use of packed sand was first recorded in the mid 1500's. It doesn't matter the medium, but forming a perfect cylinder out of any of the above is much easier than in the finished metal. forming a perfect cylinder in the mold is no more difficult than forming a perfect cylinder in what you are using to shape your mold. a barrel constructed of staves might have a geometric barrel due to the stave construction. a cast barrel could be geometric because of the construction of the form the mold was made on, or it could be done on purpose. - with the complexity of the barrels in the image, I suspect it was on purpose. If you look at the cannon on the far left in the first picture, you definitely get a sense that the shape is decorative. Not only is hexagonal, it's twisted. I can't really see a practical use for that. Branding was as important back then as it is now. Maybe even more so when it came to weapons. Whether it was a sword, a pistol or a cannon, doing something to it design wise that made it uniquely identifiable as made by a specific manufacturer (besides just stamping a name on it) would have been a good idea. After all, there were no commercials back then. The product itself and word of mouth was the only advertising you had.
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 13, 2015 2:54:49 GMT
The hexagonal barrels are almost certainly decorative, as this would be similar to the design of some types of muskets produced at that period.
The nature of the shot is probably not to create an AP round, since I recall shot from earlier periods being found on battlefields in England with the same type of construction. From what I can tell it seems more likely that a block of material was added to the centre of lead shot simply to save weight or material. It might be that a solid lead projectile had too much mass to be propelled at useful velocities without using a dangerous amount of powder at this period.
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Post by the light works on Dec 13, 2015 3:29:03 GMT
The hexagonal barrels are almost certainly decorative, as this would be similar to the design of some types of muskets produced at that period. The nature of the shot is probably not to create an AP round, since I recall shot from earlier periods being found on battlefields in England with the same type of construction. From what I can tell it seems more likely that a block of material was added to the centre of lead shot simply to save weight or material. It might be that a solid lead projectile had too much mass to be propelled at useful velocities without using a dangerous amount of powder at this period. that thought had also crossed my mind lighter shot would fly faster for the same energy imparted - meaning your shot would have less deflection between barrel and target - easier accuracy.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 13, 2015 6:52:50 GMT
We are having the discussion, so this is beneficial. However... The AP ability of the round, we may have to have that tested. I can see a side of a ship being needed, or at least a wooden wall of the same construction. Hit it with an all lead round and then a iron ore filled ball, see which creates more damage without deforming the round?...
Lead will "splatter" on impact and perhaps not carry the energy through the wood, iron ore would not deform that way, and may just push on through?... And of course, if you are lucky enough to hit "Point first" with the round, the impact on that point would be much greater...
I dot have the knowledge to attempt to reason this through fully, but from what I do know, it has enough to have been a good suggestion for a myth...?... yeah?...
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 13, 2015 7:00:34 GMT
Cannon build. Ok, so, I am taking this from what I know about bell casting.... It takes time to shape a perfect bell. It can take months to make ONE bell. Cannon of the period were needed "ASAP".
Therefore, getting the bore right... And then getting the outer casing of the mould to sit around that.... So the obvious question would be, flat shaped moulds, easier to make?...
OR...
Is it that as these cannons were for the "Flag ship", the cannons were therefore "Showing off", and what we have here is highly decorational on purpose, just because they were to be used on the flag ship?.. so its a case of only the best will do?... These cannons are some of the only ones to exist of that time, we have nothing much to compare them to, so we are not seeing the other end of the "make as many as possible" cannons used on lower ranking ships?..
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 13, 2015 14:48:13 GMT
Cannons on ships of this period were not designed to sink ships or for that matter do much damage to the hull. The basic principle of naval warfare at this period, and up to the late 1500s, was to settle combat at sea though boarding with cannons being intended to kill the opposing crew to thin their numbers just prior to that. This seems to be a mixture of earlier, precannon, eras, small calibre guns and long reloading times for ship mounted guns, especially the bigger ones.
The big ships of this period boasted 100 or more guns, in theory making them equal to line ships 300 or so later. However if you look a little more closely at these earlier 100 gun ships you quickly realise that of those 100 guns maybe 20 fired shot heavier than one pound. Meaning that they would have been outmatched by the average 36 gun 18 pounder frigate from 1790, who's broadside weight would be heavier...to say nothing about faster rate of fire, longer range and much better powder.
'Flag ship' is a misunderstood term, certainly in the historical sense. Basically the flagship was whatever ship the commander of a fleet was on and flying his flag from. (Hence the flag in question was the admirals). Admirals tended to pick the biggest and most powerful ship, since these tended to have more space for the admiral and his staff. But an admiral could pick any ship under his command regardless of its size - admirals often moved their flag to frigates if their original ship was lost or too badly damaged to continue fighting. Making that frigate the flagship.
Line ships, a term which wouldn't be used until the mid to late 1600s when the line of battle became the predominant combat formation at sea, can be viewed as their eras version of aircraft carriers today. They were the biggest ships around, cost a fortune to build and maintain - meaning only the richest and most powerful countries could afford to build them. Just like carriers their main function was actually to prevent wars by showing off their countries power in the hope it would deter aggression. Showing off the power, wealth and prestige of the ships owner wasn't just a matter of building big, it was also a matter of looking impressive by adding ornate decoration. The amount of money spent on the decoration of some line ships could be greater than the cost of building a new frigate.
Guns were actually a more cost effective form of decoration, since unlike carvings you could remove the guns and put them on other ships. Recover them if the ship sank some of the time. And even if the guns were no longer viable on a ship you could use them on land, the difference between a ship mounted cannon and a land based cannon is basically the gun carriage its mounted on. This is why brass cannons remained in use on line ships long after iron guns proved to be just as reliable but a hell of a lot cheaper. Brass looked nicer, and the fact you could afford the more expensive guns gave the impression you were wealthy.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 14, 2015 7:36:53 GMT
So Cyber, you are going with these may have been mostly decorational then....
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 14, 2015 19:02:50 GMT
So Cyber, you are going with these may have been mostly decorational then.... They were first and foremost weapons, but the specifics of these designs were most likely intended to be decorative. Not least due to the Mary Rose being a literal royal ship, meaning it was build and owned by the crown rather than being impressed/hired from a private owner or build for the country. (In the strictest sense the 'Royal' navy is a misnomer as since the mid 1600s, when a strong permanent navy was created, the ships were build for the crown in name only). The king would have insisted on the most impressive looking ship he could afford, and often a ship he couldn't actually afford to pay for but he was the king God damn it!
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joe
Oompa-Loompa
Posts: 2
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Post by joe on Dec 25, 2017 1:54:47 GMT
I saw the OP referenced a previous discussion on the cannonball question, but I did not find it in a search, so forgive me if I am covering points made elsewhere . . .
I believe the current thought on the 'square cannonball' is that is was a form of projectile for use on sail and rigging. The iron was not restricted to the center of the ball, but projected out on two sides in the form of spikes. The profile of the projecting spikes was square, and the cannonballs of this type have square holes remaining where the rusted-away spikes once were. You can actually see this square orifice in the cannonball of the original 2013 article when they first thought this might be an early type of AP projectile. The Mary Rose website now refers to these as spike shot (or crossbar, but I'll pass over the argument on that point). Several sources claim these spikes were wrapped with flammable material and used as incendiary projectiles. The lump of iron that still exists in the center of some of these projectiles appears to be where the spikes were joined together when made, or made for more easily centering the spike in the mold for casting.
See image 14 of page 1 of the Gallery of Artifacts: www.maryrose.org/discover-our-collection/story-of-the-ship/image-galleries/ I've seen a reference that Queen Elizabeth's Armoury at the Tower has spike shot in its inventory, though my personal photos don't happen to show these.
Ammunition from the Vasa shows a similar type of ammunition, except it used two spikes forming a very narrow X - narrow because of the limits of bore diameter. And this is a link to a spike shot that was up for auction.
www.icollector.com/Complete-iron-spike-shot-very-rare-Marex-s-artifact_i14157991
[Edited to correct bad link.]
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Post by the light works on Dec 25, 2017 3:57:40 GMT
I saw the OP referenced a previous discussion on the cannonball question, but I did not find it in a search, so forgive me if I am covering points made elsewhere . . .
I believe the current thought on the 'square cannonball' is that is was a form of projectile for use on sail and rigging. The iron was not restricted to the center of the ball, but projected out on two sides in the form of spikes. The profile of the projecting spikes was square, and the cannonballs of this type have square holes remaining where the rusted-away spikes once were. You can actually see this square orifice in the cannonball of the original 2013 article when they first thought this might be an early type of AP projectile. The Mary Rose website now refers to these as spike shot (or crossbar, but I'll pass over the argument on that point). Several sources claim these spikes were wrapped with flammable material and used as incendiary projectiles. The lump of iron that still exists in the center of some of these projectiles appears to be where the spikes were joined together when made, or made for more easily centering the spike in the mold for casting.
See image 14 of page 1 of the Gallery of Artifacts: www.maryrose.org/discover-our-collection/story-of-the-ship/image-galleries/ I've seen a reference that Queen Elizabeth's Armoury at the Tower has spike shot in its inventory, though my personal photos don't happen to show these.
Ammunition from the Vasa shows a similar type of ammunition, except it used two spikes forming a very narrow X - narrow because of the limits of bore diameter. And this is a link to a spike shot that was up for auction.
www.icollector.com/Complete-iron-spike-shot-very-rare-Marex-s-artifact_i14157991
[Edited to correct bad link.] interesting information for sure. I take it the hope was the spike would catch on something and take it along for the ride as it went through the rigging.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 26, 2017 12:30:49 GMT
I saw the OP referenced a previous discussion on the cannonball question, but I did not find it in a search, so forgive me if I am covering points made elsewhere . . .
First and foremost, first post?. welcome to the board, and thanks for your interest, you are most welcome here, we are a friendly bunch, we dont mind at all if you dig up old topics with new information, we actually encourage that. Yes thats interesting new information you bring... so your suggestion is that the "cannonball" in question was anything but round and had spikes sticking out either side, loaded lengthways, and having the centre mass loaded with lead to make a tighter fit and add mass. Yes I can see that working... But have yet to see why?. Sticking a spike into a mast would have been a thousand-to-one shot to get accurately wouldnt it?. Surely a bigger ball and smashing through the mast would have been better?. "At that time", were they trying to capture ships and crew, or blow them out the water?. Surely taking the masts by fire risked destroying the whole ship?. Or was it just to aim at the sails and take the sails out thus slowing a fleeing ship down?. They suggest tying a flaming rag to the ball... would a flaming rag survive being shout out a cannon, and would it ignite a sail?. [does the shot tumble in flight, is it to be shot close range with reduced power, how do you light the rags anyway......] This brings more and more into the things that could be tested range here doesnt it?. And thanks for bringing this to us, I dont think I would have imagined a spiked ball at all in the question of rusty lead shot.
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