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Post by silverdragon on Feb 13, 2016 9:26:56 GMT
The argument is suspension.... the Myth is that one is better than the other, from BOTH sides of the fence.
Thye fence is one that may be stronger than the dodge vs ford argument?...
I have an interest in an off roader.
The argument is Beam axle, "Solid" or "Rigid", or however you want to call it, or all round independent swing arm double "A" frame with CV jointed type drive shafts.
I have also though about this and want double end steering ability, because why not if your going to all that effort.... 4wheeldrive, 4wheelsteer...
I want the independent, yet I am getting a fair amount of shouting at for wanting that because "well, it aint traditional".
So what?.. I ant your average "traditionalist" anyway. I want to challenge tradition and come up with something that can do the job.
So I question, which is the best, and can we de-miff all the myths that are out there that the beam axle is the best, or that whatever beam axle can do, independent can do it better.....
For my own purposes, I do NOT want a Baha bug climb up a vertical 4ft rock face "Rock crawler" or hill scrambler type thing, what I want is something that can cross a ploughed field at a reasonable comfortable pace without bogging down, hold the tarmac road safely at road speed, do "farm tracks" and the occasional 4wheel trail, wade say a three foot deep maximum stream/river but not the ones where its crawl slowly so you dont tip over halfway up a rock face type.
So its an on/off roader of the fully legal variety, not a "trailer queen" that has to be dragged between "stages", a sort of daily driver that can go pretty much most places you would want to go.
This HAS to be comfortable... its for me, and I may be 10 yrs away from wheelchair, or 5 yrs, I dont know yet how long, but I do know by disabilities are catching up on me.
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2016 9:35:16 GMT
depends on what you want it to do. the independent suspension will ride better on most surfaces. the straight axle will usually turn sharper.
the straight axle has less fiddly bits to go wrong. the independent suspension doesn't go wrong unless abused.
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2016 9:36:45 GMT
nearly forgot - straight axle has the pumpkin in between, whereas independent suspension gets it above the center of the wheels.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 13, 2016 9:54:18 GMT
nearly forgot - straight axle has the pumpkin in between, whereas independent suspension gets it above the center of the wheels. And that should give you better ground clearance, right?.. between the wheels, less to hit big rocks?... Thus if you build it right, the transfer cases and differentials can be hidden inside the body above skid plates?... |
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2016 10:02:38 GMT
nearly forgot - straight axle has the pumpkin in between, whereas independent suspension gets it above the center of the wheels. And that should give you better ground clearance, right?.. between the wheels, less to hit big rocks?... Thus if you build it right, the transfer cases and differentials can be hidden inside the body above skid plates?... yes, that is the theory. if you add geared hubs you can get even better clearance, but those get expensive. |
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 13, 2016 10:17:30 GMT
And that should give you better ground clearance, right?.. between the wheels, less to hit big rocks?... Thus if you build it right, the transfer cases and differentials can be hidden inside the body above skid plates?... yes, that is the theory. if you add geared hubs you can get even better clearance, but those get expensive. Ah... now here is the rub, I am planning a donor car that has WRX experience, so, I may be getting the full 4wd with traction control toys already in... as a donor... Thing is, I have been told that that idea is "just plain wrong", and I should be starting with the full size America style truck. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 13, 2016 10:29:10 GMT
yes, that is the theory. if you add geared hubs you can get even better clearance, but those get expensive. Ah... now here is the rub, I am planning a donor car that has WRX experience, so, I may be getting the full 4wd with traction control toys already in... as a donor... Thing is, I have been told that that idea is "just plain wrong", and I should be starting with the full size America style truck. there are some definite disadvantages to starting with a US made pickup. you would be better building it on a Toyota Hilux platform on the other hand, if you went with an older American made pickup, you could put in the steering system from a boom forklift. |
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 14, 2016 10:35:33 GMT
You have guessed correctly the other donor vehicle, you win a prize.....
[dang, I didnt have a prize ready for that one?..]
Yep, I have seen the Top Gear attempts to kill a hilux, so of course, I was going to use one of them, Which will make it diesel.
But Hilux use beam axles....
And their all the toys kit on suspension control and traction control only come on "later" models.
Steering, I have someone I know who does all kind of neat stuff and agrees with a lot of ideas I have,, he is willing to do the steering "at cost" for me, because he is kind of fascinated by the frankentruck we will get from this.
This is a project still on paper at the moment, I just need to get past the suspension issues here.
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Post by the light works on Feb 14, 2016 15:40:52 GMT
You have guessed correctly the other donor vehicle, you win a prize..... [dang, I didnt have a prize ready for that one?..] Yep, I have seen the Top Gear attempts to kill a hilux, so of course, I was going to use one of them, Which will make it diesel. But Hilux use beam axles.... And their all the toys kit on suspension control and traction control only come on "later" models. Steering, I have someone I know who does all kind of neat stuff and agrees with a lot of ideas I have,, he is willing to do the steering "at cost" for me, because he is kind of fascinated by the frankentruck we will get from this. This is a project still on paper at the moment, I just need to get past the suspension issues here. I guess the first major decision you have is whether you are going with the high tech solution to a low tech problem philosophy or the no problem so complex it can't be solved with brute force and ignorance philosophy. using a Hilux platform, it would be relatively easy to simply put a front end backwards under the back end, flip the ring gear in the diff, have a funky angle on the drive shaft, and run a connecting rod from the front steering to the rear. more complicated would be to make a multimode steering system, where you could control the rear steering separately from the front. but there might be a way you could make an adjustable linkage, where the severity of the rear steering was hydraulically or electrically adjustable. |
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Post by the light works on Feb 14, 2016 15:42:06 GMT
alternately, my dads oldest backhoe had full hydraulic steering.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 15, 2016 7:34:43 GMT
Rear steering can be the same on a multi-axle truck, as a percentage of the front, or, in extreme, electrically controlled hydraulic override for tight spots.
But this is getting away from the initial question of which suspension system is the preferred...
I still think independent.
Is that enough to bust a myth with?..
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Post by wvengineer on Feb 15, 2016 14:06:38 GMT
One thing I'll throw out is that full independent suspension tend to be more prone to damage. The rear differential tends to get hit quit a bit, but solid axles tend to be built much stouter than the independent variety. Back when I had my Subaru and was involved in the community, I knew a lot of people who got their rear differential damaged when it hits stuff. The common solution was to add skid plates to protect the vital components of the drive train.
I think part of it is that the rear differential on an independent suspension setup is fixed to the frame of the car. If something hits it, there is no where for it to go and all the energy is absorbed by the differential. Whereas with a solid axle, the whole thing is floating on the suspension. If something hits, it, a good portion of the energy is transferred to the shock that absorb it, in addition, the axle assemble has a lot more mass to distribute the energy through.
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Post by the light works on Feb 15, 2016 15:43:31 GMT
in a similar vein, on my work truck, I think I am up to having replaced half of the front suspension and steering components. on my Jeep, I've had to add a reinforcing piece to the bracket holding the steering box.
again, tell us what you want it to do and then we can tell you which system will be better. it you want it to look like a high tech solution to a low tech problem, then 4 wheel independent suspension is the way to go. if you want it to go freeway speed over a plowed field, independent suspension is the way to go. if you want it to show the world how much money you can throw around, independent suspension is the way to go.
if you want it to go places more interesting than your bank and your mechanic, then you might lean towards straight axles. I used my Jeep for a daily driver for 5 or 6 years and was pretty comfortable driving it.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 16, 2016 7:44:13 GMT
I hear ya!, and we are on that one, we intend to have both ends "inside" the framework and covered by skid plates.
Front to back skid plates at that, that also may require some careful thought about exhaust route, do we tunnel the exhaust along the plate, because we already decided that having that inside a skid plate is going to cook the car?
But is it?..
One thing I am certain of, is leaf springs have to go.
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Post by the light works on Feb 16, 2016 15:03:13 GMT
I hear ya!, and we are on that one, we intend to have both ends "inside" the framework and covered by skid plates. Front to back skid plates at that, that also may require some careful thought about exhaust route, do we tunnel the exhaust along the plate, because we already decided that having that inside a skid plate is going to cook the car? But is it?.. One thing I am certain of, is leaf springs have to go. heat shielding above the exhaust should help. that's one issue I ran into when I changed the engine in the Jeep. it heats the rear floorboards pretty well. if you're getting rid of leaf springs, you're adding enough other linkages to compensate that you might as well go whole hog. I've seen straight axles modified for coil springs, and it takes a lot of superstructure to stabilize them. |
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