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Post by the light works on Mar 11, 2016 2:30:47 GMT
Forgot to address this: seriously. you don't seem to be able to get over the fact that having to actively think about spelling rules that other people can do subconsciously does not equate to not being able to do this View Attachmentto a photorealistic standard. You seem to totally negate the fact that we ALL have to actively think about spelling rules in the learning process, but at some point, it becomes more or less muscle memory for most people, while others just don't ever get to that point. You (and society at large) seem to think getting to that point where you can remember those rules and perform those tasks subconsciously is an inate ability all humans should have and if someone doesn't, there's something wrong with them, even though they have no problems at all getting to that point with other things. Take my previous example of reading musical notes. That's a language in its own right. A bunch of artificially created, arbitrary symbols that represent certain noises that can be made by an instrument. No person on the planet is born with the ability to read and understand those symbols. You have to learn from someone who already understands them and you have to practice to get to the point where you no longer have to actively think about what to do with them. If reading and writing words and sentences is something we're all supposed to grasp inately, why are some people who are perfectly literate completely unable to learn how to read musical notes? And why can some dyslexics - who, according to you, have inherent problems with their language recognition skills - learn to do it just as easily as they can learn to do other things? I've got a friend who will stutter his way through a children's book, but can look at a sheet of music and start playing (on multiple instrument, I might add) like it's the most natural thing in the world. Why can he do one and not the other? Because for some reason he's able to make a logical connection between the symbols on a sheet of music, the sounds they represent and the rules that govern that language system, but he just can't make that same logical connection between letters, spoken words and the rules that connect the two. If you're introduced to a game where the rules make absolutely no logical sense to you, no matter how many times and in how many different ways people explain them to you, what are the odds of you ever learning those rules by heart and getting good at that game? More to the point, if you fail to see the logic in the rules to that game that all your friends seem to understand just fine, but you have no problem seeing the logic in other things, does that necessarily mean there's something wrong with you? you're saying a blackberry isn't a different phone just because it doesn't run android. No. You're totally missing my point. I'm saying a Blackberry that can't read Android code isn't defective. That's not part of its logic. That's not what it was built for. That doesn't mean there's anything wrong with it. but it still means you have to account for the fact it is not an android.
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Post by OziRiS on Mar 11, 2016 3:12:20 GMT
but it still means you have to account for the fact it is not an android. Right. It's a different phone. And the only reason you would ever come to the conclusion that there's something wrong with it being different is if you're expecting it not to be. So, which is faulty? The phone, or your expectations?
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Post by the light works on Mar 11, 2016 3:28:57 GMT
but it still means you have to account for the fact it is not an android. Right. It's a different phone. And the only reason you would ever come to the conclusion that there's something wrong with it being different is if you're expecting it not to be. So, which is faulty? The phone, or your expectations? well, if you expect the differences between operating systems to be irrelevant, your expectations are what is faulty.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 11, 2016 10:20:28 GMT
There is a difference between Illness and Disability.
In a world where you are now expected to be able, not being able, is dis-able.... Centuries ago it didnt matter, only now, where there is a demand for people to be able to communicate through written word, is there a requisite to know the art of writing "correctly".
You are not "Required" to be able to draw to "Fit in" with the modern world. Now if you were Asian with a language of thousands of characters where they take great pride in forming the Chinese style letters as an art form, yes you have a problem....
But here, Its not a pre-requisite to know art to be educated, so therefore, not being able to do art is not a dis-ability.. at this time....
Not being able to write at a certain minimum speed is not able, dis-able....
We are both arguing the same point but from different directions, and I hope you understand that in doing so, we are clarifying the point of what a dis-able-ment is exactly, its not being able to do something.
Disabled as a word or verb can mean something greater that the parts.
But the parts be true, "I am not able" .
Dis you realise that that is exactly the point... the problems ARE in my head.... I just cant "get" the idea of importance on the rules of words, they just dont sink in and stay where they can be nailed down?...
Short insert here from someone I know who has number dyslexia. The description of the problem they came up with was that the numbers move about on the page. Given the number 60909609, they know there are numbers in there that are 6 9 and 0, but in no way can they tell you in what order. But as soon as this is said, someone says "Hey, I have heard of this...." they are then given a sheet of coloured plastic to lay over the numbers. They stop moving..... a bit....
That person has been given glasses with different coloured lenses to wear when doing maths problems, and, they can now see the numbers a lot more clearly?...
Who knew?.
I wish it were that simple for letter dyslexia.
My own problem is my reading speed, as mentioned, I read faster than I talk, but my writing speed is a lot slower, and if I slow down that much, I loose track of what I am trying to say, so, therefore, to get what is in my head down on the page, I must write fast. At the normal writing speed, I loose focus on the rules. Remembering the rules, I forget what I am trying to say. I can not for the life of me remember all the rules anyway. Catch 22, 23, 24, 25, >>265?...
But when you ht that wall in the most important thing in education, it slows down the rate of how you can be educated, and in that, you are not-as-able as the rest of the people to be educated. Loot at the above example... From diagnosis to being prescribed the glasses, six month. From a grade e to grade B in maths, six months, after wearing the glasses, the grades jumped almost immediately. Its not the ability to think, its the ability to understand the written words and problems therein. The disability is translation of the problem via the written language.
The problem is not how others see the problem the problem is with us, the dyslexics, and how WE see the problem.
It holds us back. I will now stop correcting mistakes for a few paragraphs of this post.. Remember this.
Think on how a dyalexis would view the problem, pout yourself in their shoes, and think of a quote that would look like
There is a class streeking ahed at something that you actually trully do understand and have no problems with the spoken word explayning your in depth ability to understand the subject, where the techers, you, and your class mates even view you as "ahead of many of us" in the subject.
Now look at that exam paper..... The end of ten exam where you prove to the otside word by a grade on how deep you underfstand the subject. The words start to dance on the page, you aer unde presure to do wat you can in hoer and a half. The presure gets to you and you cannt do anything but try and rush through the answers because you dont have the time to go bacvk and correct your spelling gramar and all the retst.
Put the last few paragraphs throug a decent spell checker and see what comes out undelined as possibly incorect?.. You remember I said I will not correct for a whle?.. this is how my posts look before I go back and correct what I am writing.
In that ALL of EVERYTHING I write looks like that before I do the edit...
Now tell me I dont have "A Problem".
This is why I side with the Dyslexics that it is possibly good for us to explain to others that we have this disability.
In everything I write, every exam I take, every important document that has to be put on record somewhere, when I have that hour-and-a-half, half an hour is spelling corrections of what I am writing, so therefore, to get an "A" in something, if I had extra time, that would be at least an A-Star, if not, distinction, or in the case where I was allowed extra time for my NLC Licence, the first on record at that college (Founded in the mid 50's) to get a 100% pass rate.... on a WRITTEN test?...
Does it make us "Dim"?.. hell no, quite the opposite. Does it mean we are creative?.. well, the ability to ignore rules when it just doesnt matter allows us to "Think sideways" a lot makes us extremely creative.
But when it comes to the written word, or even typed word, we are at a distinct disadvantage to other people in any time frame allowed. We CAN and WILL do the work, it just takes us a little longer, so give us an allowance. Go watch the wheelchair marathon..... The one that runs before the running marathon starts. Can you in any way say the people in wheelchairs are NOT disabled?... Yes, yes they are. But watch, and stand amazed at the times they post, almost half the time of the runners.... Yes we can do the marathon, we just need a little help?..
Same thing.
Disabled or differently-able?...
You decide.
But for us, we will take both thankyou.
If you measure a fish by its ability to climb a tree?...
Exactly what I am trying to get across here.
But then when you go and put the mark of "Normal peoples ability" halfway up that tree, well, that fish has no chance at all. And the measure of normal peoples ability is the ability to read a page of text and answer questions to show that you understand what has been written there in a certain amount of time, and the answers must be written in plain English, and, spelt correctly.... 'Scuse me whilst I don a Scuba suit for this test?..
Not may Dyslexis work in places where their ability to put the written word into records is important, yet most will find a niche in the worlds rich tappestry to make their own mark. Just dont expect us to be "blogging" about it all that often?.
Oziris, if you can now see and understand what I go through each day when faced with writing stuff down, maybe you now understand what I am saying?... And no I do NOT in any way see you as an opponent in this. What I see in this is an opportunity to show you, and perhaps put into the records, what kind of disability we are dealing with here, and how it affects all of us in many ways. It affects me in the way I try to express myself, and it affects you in that you dont always get to read the true feelings of any dyslexis, because of our dis-ability to be able to write it down in coherent words... If we could say face to face, you would see, easily....
Think of it this way, C64, read his posts. Can you see the difficulty he is having translating from Deutsch to English?.. Perhaps its the same way with dyslexia, we feel often that what we are doing is "Foreign" to the way we think?.. And for the record, C64 write more coherently than some people I could mention, including certain journalists in the "Red Top" newspapers........... At least he fact-checks what he writes?..
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 11, 2016 10:28:13 GMT
Question, and answer as honestly as you can, because I have a feeling that if you think about it, it may change your answer.
We all have an inner monologue where we think in words. When you are reading, do you have a "voice" in your head that speaks each word as you look at it...
Or do the words just go straight through to your conciousness?...
I ask you to go away and read a few posts with this question on the back burner.
I will come to the reason I ask this question maybe tomorrow, when you have all had time to think and reply. Please DO reply, even if you think its not making sense, because you may be surprised by the answers.
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Post by the light works on Mar 11, 2016 14:45:50 GMT
I was hoping somebody would catch that.
Oziris has based his entire premise of dyslexia not being a thing on the premise that many people respond to it wrong, and that the secondary behavioral symptoms can be all over the place.
that is an invalid premise.
people also respond to ADHD wrong, and the secondary behavioral symptoms can be all over the place.
people respond to fibromyalgia wrong, although the secondary behavioral symptoms are pretty consistent.
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