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Post by wvengineer on Aug 12, 2016 20:27:56 GMT
A million mile error at a range of 2.8 billion miles is 0.035714% error. Close enough for engineering proposes.
To put it in another perspective, it's like pinpointing a single person in Central Park in Manhattan, looking at it from Hawaii. (Assuming I am doing my math right.) For all practical purposes, knowing that they are in the park is good enough. You don't need to know the exact park bench they are on.
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Post by the light works on Aug 13, 2016 1:55:48 GMT
Neptune's orbit is 2.8 billion miles from the Sun. Assuming a circular orbit, that means the circumference is about 18 billion miles. And the object is even further. With those numbers, a million miles is pretty insignificant. but you're only measuring a 320th of an orbit. give or take. assuming it has the same orbital period as neptune. I'd have to have some pretty on the ball measuring skills to calculate the dimensions of an ovoid from only 2 degrees of arc.
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Post by the light works on Aug 13, 2016 1:59:52 GMT
to be clear; I'm questioning whether we have enough data to be absolutely positive it is in the specified orbit, or if this is a "this is possible given the data we currently have"
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Post by Lokifan on Aug 13, 2016 2:19:09 GMT
Since they can place planets around other stars (and tell if they're in the Goldilocks zone), I'm assuming an object in a solar orbit can be nailed down as well.
Yes, I know--different techniques (wobble), but I assume they have good measurement methods in their bag of tricks.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 13, 2016 2:53:24 GMT
Neptune's orbit is 2.8 billion miles from the Sun. Assuming a circular orbit, that means the circumference is about 18 billion miles. And the object is even further. With those numbers, a million miles is pretty insignificant. but you're only measuring a 320th of an orbit. give or take. assuming it has the same orbital period as neptune. I'd have to have some pretty on the ball measuring skills to calculate the dimensions of an ovoid from only 2 degrees of arc. You shouldn't need any measurement of the orbit to calculate its orbit. That's kind of like me saying, tell me your weight and I'll tell you how much you weight. All you need is location, velocity (speed and direction) and its mass. From that you can calculate the orbit.
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Post by the light works on Aug 13, 2016 3:06:24 GMT
but you're only measuring a 320th of an orbit. give or take. assuming it has the same orbital period as neptune. I'd have to have some pretty on the ball measuring skills to calculate the dimensions of an ovoid from only 2 degrees of arc. You shouldn't need any measurement of the orbit to calculate its orbit. That's kind of like me saying, tell me your weight and I'll tell you how much you weight. All you need is location, velocity (speed and direction) and its mass. From that you can calculate the orbit. but you cannot tell its velocity from a single point.
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Post by wvengineer on Aug 13, 2016 11:10:24 GMT
You shouldn't need any measurement of the orbit to calculate its orbit. That's kind of like me saying, tell me your weight and I'll tell you how much you weight. All you need is location, velocity (speed and direction) and its mass. From that you can calculate the orbit. Mass of the object being measured doesn't factor into it. Only position, direction and velocity. You only need to know the mass of the body around which it is orbiting (in this case the sun) to know what gravity you are dealing with. Once you know those three factors, the math is straight forward. there is only one orbit (size and eccentricity or how oval/circular it is) that will produce that set of variables. The math isn't even that hard. You need some good algebra and a descent knowledge of physics to chug though it all. A moon, planet, or a pebble, if they have the same position and vector (direction and speed), they will have the same orbit. but you cannot tell its velocity from a single point. Ah. I see where the confusion comes from. You are correct TLW. At a minimum, you need 3 different observations to determine direction and velocity. This will enable you to do two parallax measurements (if they share a data point). That will let you know a staring point and a 2nd point. That will give you your vector and you can figure your orbit from there. The usual method of tracking something today is to get a series of daily observation over several weeks or months. So you end up with a few dozen data points to work with. In doing so you are able to derive the needed data to extrapolate the position and vector to a good degree of accuracy. The more data points you get, the more you can fine tune your calculations. Really the math there is the hardest part of the whole thing. Because you are measuring on the earth that is going one direction (albeit known direction) in space, and another object that is in an unknown position, moving at the same time in an unknown direction at an unknown rate. It's a lot of 3D trig to figure it all out.
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Post by wvengineer on Aug 13, 2016 11:32:21 GMT
The advantage of a series of data points is you can get a good model of its movement.
Let's say you observe an object every night for a week. That will give you 7 data points. You can take the data from day 1 and day 4 to do one parallax measurement and then the data from day 4 and day 7 to do another. That will let you calculate two points in space. Now, if you take the data from day 2 and day 6 to calculate a 3rd point, it should be in the ballpark of what you found earlier. You can then take any two days to calculate additional points in space. There are 23 different calculations you can do from those data points and they all help to better your model.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 13, 2016 12:31:50 GMT
You shouldn't need any measurement of the orbit to calculate its orbit. That's kind of like me saying, tell me your weight and I'll tell you how much you weight. All you need is location, velocity (speed and direction) and its mass. From that you can calculate the orbit. Mass of the object being measured doesn't factor into it. Only position, direction and velocity. You only need to know the mass of the body around which it is orbiting (in this case the sun) to know what gravity you are dealing with. Once you know those three factors, the math is straight forward. there is only one orbit (size and eccentricity or how oval/circular it is) that will produce that set of variables. The math isn't even that hard. You need some good algebra and a descent knowledge of physics to chug though it all. A moon, planet, or a pebble, if they have the same position and vector (direction and speed), they will have the same orbit. Right. I was looking at the orbital equations and saw that mass was one of the variables. I didn't further investigate to see which body the mass was referring to. Better I stick with electronics and leave astrophysics to the experts.
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Post by the light works on Aug 13, 2016 14:31:04 GMT
You shouldn't need any measurement of the orbit to calculate its orbit. That's kind of like me saying, tell me your weight and I'll tell you how much you weight. All you need is location, velocity (speed and direction) and its mass. From that you can calculate the orbit. Mass of the object being measured doesn't factor into it. Only position, direction and velocity. You only need to know the mass of the body around which it is orbiting (in this case the sun) to know what gravity you are dealing with. Once you know those three factors, the math is straight forward. there is only one orbit (size and eccentricity or how oval/circular it is) that will produce that set of variables. The math isn't even that hard. You need some good algebra and a descent knowledge of physics to chug though it all. A moon, planet, or a pebble, if they have the same position and vector (direction and speed), they will have the same orbit. but you cannot tell its velocity from a single point. Ah. I see where the confusion comes from. You are correct TLW. At a minimum, you need 3 different observations to determine direction and velocity. This will enable you to do two parallax measurements (if they share a data point). That will let you know a staring point and a 2nd point. That will give you your vector and you can figure your orbit from there. The usual method of tracking something today is to get a series of daily observation over several weeks or months. So you end up with a few dozen data points to work with. In doing so you are able to derive the needed data to extrapolate the position and vector to a good degree of accuracy. The more data points you get, the more you can fine tune your calculations. Really the math there is the hardest part of the whole thing. Because you are measuring on the earth that is going one direction (albeit known direction) in space, and another object that is in an unknown position, moving at the same time in an unknown direction at an unknown rate. It's a lot of 3D trig to figure it all out. I debated back and forth on whether mass or density would be a factor or not. ultimately concluded newtonian forces would balance themselves out and atmospheric drag is negligible. and yes, I was thinking that with a small enough sample size, it would be possible for a small inaccuracy to be magnified in the calculations. the first thought I had was if apiece of interstellar stuff passed through close enough for the sun to draw it into an arc, but it essentially fell through the system and kept going out the other side.
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Post by WhutScreenName on Aug 24, 2016 14:21:06 GMT
This is pretty cool stuff I think!
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 24, 2016 19:37:47 GMT
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 24, 2016 21:19:45 GMT
And with the discovery of Proxima b, solving the problems of Breakthrough Starshot suddenly becomes very important, because at 20% the speed of light, we could actually send a probe to Proxima b in the foreseeable future.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 25, 2016 6:06:17 GMT
And with the discovery of Proxima b, solving the problems of Breakthrough Starshot suddenly becomes very important, because at 20% the speed of light, we could actually send a probe to Proxima b in the foreseeable future. Send it, yes, but of course "How long" will that take?.
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 25, 2016 9:39:51 GMT
And with the discovery of Proxima b, solving the problems of Breakthrough Starshot suddenly becomes very important, because at 20% the speed of light, we could actually send a probe to Proxima b in the foreseeable future. Send it, yes, but of course "How long" will that take?. Assuming it was ready for launch today and it works exactly like they intend it to, 20-30 years to get there and then 4-5 years for the signal to come back to Earth. Considering we were willing to wait 9 years for New Horizons to reach Pluto - a planet we knew for a fact ahead of time wouldn't hold life - waiting 25-35 years to get data from a flyby of an actual exoplanet that might be habitable doesn't sound like much, does it?
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Post by the light works on Aug 25, 2016 14:46:44 GMT
very cool.
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 27, 2016 11:47:17 GMT
A pretty cool spectacle that apparently hasn't been seen since 1660 is about to take place tonight on August 27th, 2016 according to this article: www.space.com/33866-venus-jupiter-conjunction-star-of-bethlehem.htmlEspecially if you live on the West Coast of the US, Jupiter and Venus will come so close to each other shortly after sunset that they'll almost look like one large planet. I'd love to see it myself, but according to the article we won't be able to see it as well here in Europe as our American friends will.
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Post by the light works on Aug 27, 2016 13:22:51 GMT
A pretty cool spectacle that apparently hasn't been seen since 1660 is about to take place tonight on August 27th, 2016 according to this article: www.space.com/33866-venus-jupiter-conjunction-star-of-bethlehem.htmlEspecially if you live on the West Coast of the US, Jupiter and Venus will come so close to each other shortly after sunset that they'll almost look like one large planet. I'd love to see it myself, but according to the article we won't be able to see it as well here in Europe as our American friends will. we probably won't be able to see it either, because of the weather.
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Post by ponytail61 on Aug 28, 2016 4:29:16 GMT
If it wasn't for the overcast, the mountains would have blocked it anyhow. The south had a better shot at seeing it since it's further above the horizon according to the article.
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Post by the light works on Aug 28, 2016 13:47:58 GMT
If it wasn't for the overcast, the mountains would have blocked it anyhow. The south had a better shot at seeing it since it's further above the horizon according to the article. and I had no chance of seeing it since I went to bed at 6:30 and was asleep by 6:15.
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