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Post by rmc on Jan 21, 2017 11:15:42 GMT
The question I have is would continuing to paint the external fuel tanks have helped prevent insulation from falling off?
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Post by GTCGreg on Jan 21, 2017 14:43:56 GMT
I don't believe it's the paint that holds the insulation to the tank.
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Post by the light works on Jan 21, 2017 15:52:11 GMT
I don't believe it's the paint that holds the insulation to the tank. I guess the first question is whether insulation came off the tank before they stopped painting it, and what that actual paint was; and what other changes were made.
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Post by rmc on Jan 21, 2017 21:37:16 GMT
I was wondering though if the paint provides some sort of skin tension. Whereas the glue actually holds the foam to the tank and the paint gives it a tiny bit of a shield from wind due to paint "skin" tension. Without the paint, the foam crumbles off except for the layer that is closest to the tank. that 'layer' still has a good bond with the glue, but the core of the foam is able to get ripped off the tank with wind unless there is a good layer of paint to provide a wind screen of sorts. Super thin skin as it were.
To test:
One surface with a foam coating glued on to it another surface with the same foam glued on to it that has been painted. Subject both to a jet aircraft engine at a bit of a distance for high-speed wind.
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Post by the light works on Jan 21, 2017 22:04:01 GMT
I was wondering though if the paint provides some sort of skin tension. Whereas the glue actually holds the foam to the tank and the paint gives it a tiny bit of a shield from wind due to paint "skin" tension. Without the paint, the foam crumbles off except for the layer that is closest to the tank. that 'layer' still has a good bond with the glue, but the core of the foam is able to get ripped off the tank with wind unless there is a good layer of paint to provide a wind screen of sorts. Super thin skin as it were. To test: One surface with a foam coating glued on to it another surface with the same foam glued on to it that has been painted. Subject both to a jet aircraft engine at a bit of a distance for high-speed wind. I was kind of thinking the same thing about the paint being more cohesive than the foam.
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Post by rmc on Jan 21, 2017 22:09:40 GMT
Cool, the light works!
I tried to email/link this one out to Dan like before, but I got a redirect email address to the producer for the recent series. So it looks like if Mythbusters is coming back in some way, Dan Tapster is not the lead runner this time?
EDIT:
maybe a large model rocket could test this too in some way? To provide a venue for high altitude thinner air, besides the jet thrust tests on the ground level
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Post by the light works on Jan 21, 2017 22:27:30 GMT
Cool, the light works! I tried to email/link this one out to Dan like before, but I got a redirect email address to the producer for the recent series. So it looks like if Mythbusters is coming back in some way, Dan Tapster is not the lead runner this time? EDIT: maybe a large model rocket could test this too in some way? To provide a venue for high altitude thinner air, besides the jet thrust tests on the ground level the smaller factors I can see would include acceleration and flexion stresses from launch.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 22, 2017 10:50:38 GMT
Question... Painting the fuel tanks "Hides" possible problems with the insulation. The Space shuttle, exactly the same as any other large transport vehicles, can only move after a walk-round visual inspection. Therefore, just allowing someone to spray it over, may have hid potential problems.?..
Plus, Paint is a weight. Knowing how much paint it takes to paint a whole Jumbo Jet, how much extra weight is there in just one coat of paint?. how does that affect payload?.. and we know they weigh everything that went on a space shuttle.
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Post by the light works on Jan 22, 2017 15:02:14 GMT
Question... Painting the fuel tanks "Hides" possible problems with the insulation. The Space shuttle, exactly the same as any other large transport vehicles, can only move after a walk-round visual inspection. Therefore, just allowing someone to spray it over, may have hid potential problems.?.. Plus, Paint is a weight. Knowing how much paint it takes to paint a whole Jumbo Jet, how much extra weight is there in just one coat of paint?. how does that affect payload?.. and we know they weigh everything that went on a space shuttle. we have that issue with wooden ladders - they are not allowed to be painted other than a distinctive marking to show ownership. the other side of it, you install the foam, then you inspect the foam, and then you paint it. you now have reason to believe any paint damage will include foam damage. kinda like on your car. if someone bashes a divot in the paint, you can assume that divot extends to the sheet metal underneath.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 23, 2017 9:01:19 GMT
Question... Painting the fuel tanks "Hides" possible problems with the insulation. The Space shuttle, exactly the same as any other large transport vehicles, can only move after a walk-round visual inspection. Therefore, just allowing someone to spray it over, may have hid potential problems.?.. Plus, Paint is a weight. Knowing how much paint it takes to paint a whole Jumbo Jet, how much extra weight is there in just one coat of paint?. how does that affect payload?.. and we know they weigh everything that went on a space shuttle. we have that issue with wooden ladders - they are not allowed to be painted other than a distinctive marking to show ownership. the other side of it, you install the foam, then you inspect the foam, and then you paint it. you now have reason to believe any paint damage will include foam damage. kinda like on your car. if someone bashes a divot in the paint, you can assume that divot extends to the sheet metal underneath. Same thing. If there is old damage, its probably been inspected and "passed", but hell why not inspect it again. In fact make it a job to inspect all damage that way, then if anything changes, you get that inspected by default. If its been painted over, you probably suspect that its going to be OK and pass over it without further inspection... Therefore, leave it open, and it gets inspected every time, more chance of spotting if something is wrong.
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Post by the light works on Jan 23, 2017 14:44:45 GMT
we have that issue with wooden ladders - they are not allowed to be painted other than a distinctive marking to show ownership. the other side of it, you install the foam, then you inspect the foam, and then you paint it. you now have reason to believe any paint damage will include foam damage. kinda like on your car. if someone bashes a divot in the paint, you can assume that divot extends to the sheet metal underneath. Same thing. If there is old damage, its probably been inspected and "passed", but hell why not inspect it again. In fact make it a job to inspect all damage that way, then if anything changes, you get that inspected by default. If its been painted over, you probably suspect that its going to be OK and pass over it without further inspection... Therefore, leave it open, and it gets inspected every time, more chance of spotting if something is wrong. keep in mind that "old" was not a thing on the shuttle external fuel tank. they rolled it out of the factory, hung a shuttle on it, shot it all into space, and didn't get it back.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 24, 2017 7:30:53 GMT
Serious?.. I thought they got 'em back and re-used them?..
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Post by mrfatso on Jan 24, 2017 10:19:04 GMT
Serious?.. I thought they got 'em back and re-used them?.. The two side Solid Rocket Boosters were reusable, the central main external tank was not.
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Post by the light works on Jan 24, 2017 14:49:57 GMT
Serious?.. I thought they got 'em back and re-used them?.. The two side Solid Rocket Boosters were reusable, the central main external tank was not. which, I'm guessing, is why they stopped painting them.
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Post by rmc on Jan 25, 2017 0:35:15 GMT
For what it's worth, Columbia was struck by foam at about 80 to 82 seconds after liftoff. That puts it at roughly 700 meters per second, or darn near 1,600 miles per hour and accelerating greatly. Here's the break down of a typical Shuttle liftoff (some variance based upon actual liftoff weight, of course): www.nasa.gov/pdf/466711main_AP_ST_ShuttleAscent.pdf
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Post by the light works on Jan 25, 2017 1:52:10 GMT
For what it's worth, Columbia was struck by foam at about 80 to 82 seconds after liftoff. That puts it at roughly 700 meters per second, or darn near 1,600 miles per hour and accelerating greatly. Here's the break down of a typical Shuttle liftoff (some variance based upon actual liftoff weight, of course): www.nasa.gov/pdf/466711main_AP_ST_ShuttleAscent.pdfthat's conna be challenging to get in the wind tunnel.
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Post by rmc on Jan 25, 2017 3:17:08 GMT
Jet exhaust blown toward the test subject materials instead of using a wind tunnel?
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Post by the light works on Jan 25, 2017 3:27:11 GMT
Jet exhaust blown toward the test subject materials instead of using a wind tunnel? what models of jet can develop 1600 MPH exhaust?
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Post by rmc on Jan 25, 2017 6:35:43 GMT
Ones that are likely top, top secret so right, that's no good. Didn't think Columbia was that far down range when the foam broke free when I first considered this one. What about a lubwieg tube then? shepherd.caltech.edu/T5/facilities/Ludwieg/Ludwieg.htmlMaybe if foam breaks free if exposed to a supersonic blast from one of these but doesn't break free when it had been painted that seals the deal? BUT - would need to thin down the atmosphere a bit to replicate the correct altitude... Thinner air has less punch against the foam... Air pressure about half sea level? Although, even if ambient room air pressures were corrected down to half sea level, when the blast of air hits (coming out of the tube) it would completely change to nature of the ambient air as high pressure air floods in, increasing everything. So, maybe the only way to know for sure is to fly rockets with foam and another with foam that has been painted, and fly them to 1,600 mph at about 18,000 feet AGL. What a drag!!! Then again, if the math is done correctly, figuring for about half sea level air pressure at 1,600 mph may mean one gets the same power by a much slower air speed at seal level air pressures, putting us maybe closer to transonic speeds instead???
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 25, 2017 6:53:30 GMT
How about a "Chicken cannon"....... I am sure with a little fiddling a chicken cannon with a few ounces of "C4" as propellant may provide enough speed for your foam?..
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