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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2017 11:53:12 GMT
but you can't spread a sterile field dressing on your toast and eat it. [resist resist, resist...]Too late, I cant resist... Before or After use?.. if the dressing is sterile after use, why did you use it?
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Post by mrfatso on Mar 4, 2017 16:58:31 GMT
Just a quick thought but would it be worth comparing what happens if you submerged a person in other liquids to form a sterile barrier? Two come in mind straightaway to me, distilled/deionised water and a vat of alcohol, if you were going to visitors t a local honey farm why not a car parts place and empty their shelves or a liquor store and get all the gin or vodka?
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Post by Lokifan on Mar 4, 2017 17:47:12 GMT
From what I can see, the usual "Scorpion" science is iffy at best. That's part of the fun of the show, for me.
I fully expect this show to be busted numerous times per episode.
You've got to admit, though--the sequence is visually interesting. It already was made as the episode for that very reason.
Busting it would also make good TV.
To tell the truth, the thing that twinged my "What the heck were the writers thinking?" was when they showed the original, "NASA designed" sterile chamber. It was walls of plastic sheeting in a metal frame.
Nothing wrong with that per se, but the sheeting looked like it was under negative air pressure, bowing inward, which is normally the exact opposite thing you want if you're trying to keep a chamber sterile. It's better to push sterile air into a chamber at higher than ambient air pressure (positive pressure) because any leaks into the dirty atmosphere will push contaminants away from the leak, instead of pulling them in.
So, instead of the sheeting flexing inward (as it appeared in the show), it should be flexing outward, like a balloon.
You do want negative pressure in a chamber if you're trying to contain something dangerous so it doesn't spread (like a dangerous bacteria). In that case, with negative pressure, any leaks are toward the inside where it can be filtered, helping your containment.
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Post by the light works on Mar 4, 2017 19:51:58 GMT
From what I can see, the usual "Scorpion" science is iffy at best. That's part of the fun of the show, for me. I fully expect this show to be busted numerous times per episode. You've got to admit, though--the sequence is visually interesting. It already was made as the episode for that very reason. Busting it would also make good TV. To tell the truth, the thing that twinged my "What the heck were the writers thinking?" was when they showed the original, "NASA designed" sterile chamber. It was walls of plastic sheeting in a metal frame. Nothing wrong with that per se, but the sheeting looked like it was under negative air pressure, bowing inward, which is normally the exact opposite thing you want if you're trying to keep a chamber sterile. It's better to push sterile air into a chamber at higher than ambient air pressure (positive pressure) because any leaks into the dirty atmosphere will push contaminants away from the leak, instead of pulling them in. So, instead of the sheeting flexing inward (as it appeared in the show), it should be flexing outward, like a balloon. You do want negative pressure in a chamber if you're trying to contain something dangerous so it doesn't spread (like a dangerous bacteria). In that case, with negative pressure, any leaks are toward the inside where it can be filtered, helping your containment. I suspect it was actually at neutral pressure, just because that would be the easiest for the set crew to build. but yes, the part of the show that qualifies as "at best" involves things like fire crews responding to emergency scenes. the at worst part involves farfetched solutions that wouldn't work instead of simple solutions that anyone with any sort of basic know-how would do in a heartbeat.
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Post by mrfatso on Mar 5, 2017 2:05:54 GMT
But that's why it's such a fertile ground, like the A team for myths to bust. The problem with some shows like Game of Thrones or The Expanse is that things can be explained away by either Magic or technologies that have not yet been invented, a modern show rooted in now has more things that could be played with.
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Post by the light works on Mar 5, 2017 2:18:46 GMT
But that's why it's such a fertile ground, like the A team for myths to bust. The problem with some shows like Game of Thrones or The Expanse is that things can be explained away by either Magic or technologies that have not yet been invented, a modern show rooted in now has more things that could be played with. and because they apparently have absolutely no research department checking whether the "genius stunts" actually pass any sort of realism test.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 5, 2017 7:39:12 GMT
Question, if the girl has germs on her and inside her from breathing in polluted air, then they are on/in the girl anyway, honey does not sterilise on its own, it just doesnt create a breeding platform for new germs as much as other substances, bit those germs that already exist, already exist. I therefore suggest that any germs that are on/inside the girl in the first place that survive being dunked in honey, that as we know wont kill those germs, but will just prevent them spreading, those germs have not been killed by the sterno. In truth, they have been protected as much as the girl was by the honey. Therefore, I suggest, that the whole exercise was completely a waste of time, as the germs or whatever she was exposed to, were protected as much as she way by way of insulation from the honey from the flames, and as long as they can survive a short term "Hold your breath" whilst being smothered in Honey, or even those inhaled can survive as long as the human can without air, then nothing effective was done. Even if those germs were inside her mouth. Am I making sense here?.. well, if we go through the whole sequence of events that got her in the barrel of honey, you would see that we are significantly far from making sense. they autoclaved the oxygen bottle, used a probably fictitious gas to sterilize the suit, then opened a door in the side of her pathogen free enclosure to hand her the suit (which had been carried from the decon chamber, in free air). she developed an allergic reaction to the gas, so they removed her from the suit in free air, and had her climb into the honey. then they transported the barrel to the walk in cooler. Autoclaved an oxygen bottle,which is heat treatment on a bottle of compressed gas by steam when that bottle directly states do not exceed a certain temp?... high pressure saturated steam at over 120-150 degC.... for quarter to half hour... [IIRC?} How did they sci-fu there way through explaining how it didnt bloody explode when heated up?.. it would at least have started a leak?.. Jamie loves Big boom?, and if you have ever seen an oxygen fire on electronics, its potentially invisible and deadly at the same time. And then it goes boom. I am still concentrating about the already made at home viruses that she had been potentially exposed to. If they had already infected her, she is infected, and there are infections on her and in her. Yes they sterilised the environment she was in, but I have yet to see how the dealt with the infections already at home inside and on the surface of her body. Those germs that have taken a hold on her, especially those breathed in to her lungs, have not in any way been addressed by this honey sterilisation program. As for the honey, it will not kill Pollen, its partly made from the same plant(s) that creates honey, and I cant remember ever seeing a single plant that is pathogenic to its own honey and or pollen at the same time?.. therefore, the Honey is about as useful as a plain shower in warm water, so why didnt they just shower her down in soap and water with maybe a mild caustic soda rinse to kill off the pollen and germs first and a clean water wash afterwards to neutralise the soda?.. Far less problematic than immersing in honey, to which, she would have had to have a shower anyway to remove the honey?.. And still they have not addressed the problems of the germs inside her lungs, if it is a germ that is airborne, as soon as she breathes out, she will be passing on the infection. If they dont "Sterilise" her lungs and skin directly, she is still a health risk.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 5, 2017 7:41:28 GMT
[resist resist, resist...]Too late, I cant resist... Before or After use?.. if the dressing is sterile after use, why did you use it? To Prevent infection. If its still sterile after use, then that just proves it works. I have a talisman that prevents attack by elephants... Take a look around, do you see elephants?.. That proves it works. [-is that nutty enough for you or do you need further proof?...]
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Post by Lokifan on Mar 5, 2017 7:55:34 GMT
She was not infectious.
She was someone with basically no immune system. A point was made that she also was allergic to basically everything as well, so she couldn't be exposed to pollen.
The plot point was to avoid all foreign pathogens somehow until she could be moved from one sterile chamber to another.
Such people do exist in real life, in the sense that certain medical conditions can result in having no immune system.
A throwaway line was something like that it normally took three days or so to follow the sterilization procedure to go to a hospital, if I recall correctly.
The plot of the show was that because of the earthquake, her chamber was about to fail, and the outside air would kill her. Everything else was an improvisation to get her to the improvised sterile chamber (the meat locker).
I will note that in the show, all the air she breathed was sterile, from the bottle or from her chamber, assuming the mask was a tight enough seal to keep contaminants out.
I figure we sterilize Buster, dunk him in the honey tank, then remove him and see if he's still germ-free.
It would require a germ free environment, to test. Perhaps a Silicon Valley white room? They're usually sterile.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 5, 2017 8:17:16 GMT
Thanks Loki for the explanation, that kinda helps, so to go forward.. You have cleared up the confusion on why she needed sterilisation...
People who are hypo-allergenic would not be "safe" from Honey. Well, not all honey anyway. Some honey that has not been "treated", will still contain pollen. The bees are covered in pollen when they deposit the honey, so the raw honey contains "pieces" of pollen....
Some honey places treat the honey by basic filter and then heat treat it. Some do not. I myself prefer the "raw" honey I get from a farm, that may even still have small pieces of wax occasionally in it, its cloudy raw honey and tastes better than processed, because its from a bee farm that used Heather plants to feed the bees, and it tastes a lot better that way. BTW, The wax from honey is also why I go to the farm in the first place, its a bloody good wax for wooden furniture that is not varnished.. Its also good for Saw blades of all types, even electric saws, and it does not harm the wood in any way. I also use it on the chainsaw, heated and dissolved in a light vegetable oil, if I am trimming a tree, that way the still growing part doesnt get polluted from mineral oils?.
I would have suggested that the ideal way to get her transported would have been sterilise the meat locker inside and out, fill it full of sterile air, push it into her enclosure, let her climb in with a "washed" clean bottle of 02, that can be done by using sterilised water, seal the locker and transport her that way. The locker needs to be sealed, as dermatitis from some airborne pollutants is possible?..
I agree on the thing with Buster, but exactly what do you test for. The honey may, treated or not, prove to contain "pollutants" dependant on the test procedure. Germs, probably not, pollen, definitely yes if untreated.
An NBC suit or similar would have protected her. I am suspicious that on someone who is hypo-allergenic, dont they keep such a thing "at hand" anyway to transport that person should they have an emergency and need hospitalisation?.. Three days?.. if that person has a stroke, they have about an hour to get medical help, if its serious, they have less, three days is too much.
I see "Bogus" in all the plot lines, its too easy a target?..
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Post by the light works on Mar 5, 2017 15:21:02 GMT
well, if we go through the whole sequence of events that got her in the barrel of honey, you would see that we are significantly far from making sense. they autoclaved the oxygen bottle, used a probably fictitious gas to sterilize the suit, then opened a door in the side of her pathogen free enclosure to hand her the suit (which had been carried from the decon chamber, in free air). she developed an allergic reaction to the gas, so they removed her from the suit in free air, and had her climb into the honey. then they transported the barrel to the walk in cooler. Autoclaved an oxygen bottle,which is heat treatment on a bottle of compressed gas by steam when that bottle directly states do not exceed a certain temp?... high pressure saturated steam at over 120-150 degC.... for quarter to half hour... [IIRC?} How did they sci-fu there way through explaining how it didnt bloody explode when heated up?.. it would at least have started a leak?.. Jamie loves Big boom?, and if you have ever seen an oxygen fire on electronics, its potentially invisible and deadly at the same time. And then it goes boom. I am still concentrating about the already made at home viruses that she had been potentially exposed to. If they had already infected her, she is infected, and there are infections on her and in her. Yes they sterilised the environment she was in, but I have yet to see how the dealt with the infections already at home inside and on the surface of her body. Those germs that have taken a hold on her, especially those breathed in to her lungs, have not in any way been addressed by this honey sterilisation program. As for the honey, it will not kill Pollen, its partly made from the same plant(s) that creates honey, and I cant remember ever seeing a single plant that is pathogenic to its own honey and or pollen at the same time?.. therefore, the Honey is about as useful as a plain shower in warm water, so why didnt they just shower her down in soap and water with maybe a mild caustic soda rinse to kill off the pollen and germs first and a clean water wash afterwards to neutralise the soda?.. Far less problematic than immersing in honey, to which, she would have had to have a shower anyway to remove the honey?.. And still they have not addressed the problems of the germs inside her lungs, if it is a germ that is airborne, as soon as she breathes out, she will be passing on the infection. If they dont "Sterilise" her lungs and skin directly, she is still a health risk. the bottle was only in the autoclave for about 15 seconds, so not enough time to make it go boom.
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Post by the light works on Mar 5, 2017 15:26:57 GMT
She was not infectious. She was someone with basically no immune system. A point was made that she also was allergic to basically everything as well, so she couldn't be exposed to pollen. The plot point was to avoid all foreign pathogens somehow until she could be moved from one sterile chamber to another. Such people do exist in real life, in the sense that certain medical conditions can result in having no immune system. A throwaway line was something like that it normally took three days or so to follow the sterilization procedure to go to a hospital, if I recall correctly. The plot of the show was that because of the earthquake, her chamber was about to fail, and the outside air would kill her. Everything else was an improvisation to get her to the improvised sterile chamber (the meat locker). I will note that in the show, all the air she breathed was sterile, from the bottle or from her chamber, assuming the mask was a tight enough seal to keep contaminants out. I figure we sterilize Buster, dunk him in the honey tank, then remove him and see if he's still germ-free. It would require a germ free environment, to test. Perhaps a Silicon Valley white room? They're usually sterile. you have just raised a question: is it possible for a person with a non-functional immune system to be allergic to anything? as for requiring a germ free environment; why? they didn't do the transfer in a germ free environment in the show. they did it outdoors.
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Post by Lokifan on Mar 5, 2017 16:50:46 GMT
you have just raised a question: is it possible for a person with a non-functional immune system to be allergic to anything? as for requiring a germ free environment; why? they didn't do the transfer in a germ free environment in the show. they did it outdoors. Good point on the allergies. I thought allergies were caused by an overactive immune system, not a missing one. Just a quick glance through Wiki points to something called "aplastic anemia" which I think might have been what she was supposed to have in the show--I seem to recall "aplastic" being in the dialogue, but I don't have a transcript. It says that fungal and bacterial infections are an issue. I think that's why they feared fungal spores in ordinary air. As for the transfer, the honey's "antibacterial and antifungal" attributes supposedly would save her. Here's a simple test for the show: Get some petri dishes with active bacterial and fungal colonies, drop honey on them, and see what happens. Not necessarily great TV, but it might answer if honey is a magical antibiotic or not.
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Post by the light works on Mar 5, 2017 22:56:51 GMT
you have just raised a question: is it possible for a person with a non-functional immune system to be allergic to anything? as for requiring a germ free environment; why? they didn't do the transfer in a germ free environment in the show. they did it outdoors. Good point on the allergies. I thought allergies were caused by an overactive immune system, not a missing one. Just a quick glance through Wiki points to something called "aplastic anemia" which I think might have been what she was supposed to have in the show--I seem to recall "aplastic" being in the dialogue, but I don't have a transcript. It says that fungal and bacterial infections are an issue. I think that's why they feared fungal spores in ordinary air. As for the transfer, the honey's "antibacterial and antifungal" attributes supposedly would save her. Here's a simple test for the show: Get some petri dishes with active bacterial and fungal colonies, drop honey on them, and see what happens. Not necessarily great TV, but it might answer if honey is a magical antibiotic or not. the impression i got was that she needed a bone marrow transplant, so they did the procedure that destroyed her existing bone marrow, before they bothered asking if there was a donor available. which reminds me they also had everybody around her take massive doses of antibiotics for no apparent reason.
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Post by Lokifan on Mar 6, 2017 16:16:08 GMT
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Post by Lokifan on Mar 6, 2017 16:22:29 GMT
the impression i got was that she needed a bone marrow transplant, so they did the procedure that destroyed her existing bone marrow, before they bothered asking if there was a donor available. which reminds me they also had everybody around her take massive doses of antibiotics for no apparent reason. Spoilers for Scorpion follow (Yeah, I know--a little late now but what the heck): I think her father said they tried to give her a transplant, but it failed due to genetic incompatibility, leaving her with no immune system at all. The first step in the transplant process was to wipe out the old, malfunctioning immune system so the transplant would "take". It didn't. The father was quite guilty about the failure and blamed himself for making the decision to go with the transplant (even though the failure was not anyone's fault; just bad luck). At the end of the show, Walter said he was designing an algorithm that would search DNA databases and find her a new transplant with a better match.
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Post by the light works on Mar 6, 2017 16:37:46 GMT
the impression i got was that she needed a bone marrow transplant, so they did the procedure that destroyed her existing bone marrow, before they bothered asking if there was a donor available. which reminds me they also had everybody around her take massive doses of antibiotics for no apparent reason. Spoilers for Scorpion follow (Yeah, I know--a little late now but what the heck): I think her father said they tried to give her a transplant, but it failed due to genetic incompatibility, leaving her with no immune system at all. The first step in the transplant process was to wipe out the old, malfunctioning immune system so the transplant would "take". It didn't. The father was quite guilty about the failure and blamed himself for making the decision to go with the transplant (even though the failure was not anyone's fault; just bad luck). At the end of the show, Walter said he was designing an algorithm that would search DNA databases and find her a new transplant with a better match. I wasn't completely clear on whether they tried the transplant and it was rejected, or they started the process without having the donor lined up, and I assumed the more stupid choice.
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Post by Lokifan on Mar 6, 2017 16:52:25 GMT
I wasn't completely clear on whether they tried the transplant and it was rejected, or they started the process without having the donor lined up, and I assumed the more stupid choice. You may be right; it was a single, throw away line and I may have gotten it wrong. Because of a friend's experience waiting on a transplant list, I'm kind of alert to anyone talking about possible donations of any type. I got a year's practice at listening to such.
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Post by the light works on Mar 6, 2017 17:03:10 GMT
I wasn't completely clear on whether they tried the transplant and it was rejected, or they started the process without having the donor lined up, and I assumed the more stupid choice. You may be right; it was a single, throw away line and I may have gotten it wrong. Because of a friend's experience waiting on a transplant list, I'm kind of alert to anyone talking about possible donations of any type. I got a year's practice at listening to such. I only got about three months. there was just too much damage, because he'd delayed going in until it was too late.
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Post by Lokifan on Mar 6, 2017 17:31:33 GMT
You may be right; it was a single, throw away line and I may have gotten it wrong. Because of a friend's experience waiting on a transplant list, I'm kind of alert to anyone talking about possible donations of any type. I got a year's practice at listening to such. I only got about three months. there was just too much damage, because he'd delayed going in until it was too late. Damn. You have my sympathies. It was a close run thing. At the end, they were no longer talking about months or weeks; it was down to days or hours. He got lucky. The nice thing is that he's aware of how lucky he was, and is a better person for it.
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