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Post by wvengineer on May 2, 2017 2:01:07 GMT
A few days ago my wife and I accidentally locked our selves out of our house. We had to card a door to get back in. My wife was actually rather disturbed how easy it was to do. So now she wants to upgrade the locks. One thing I am interested in is one of those smart lock systems. I could use that as a reason to start building a home automation system.
Have you ever done anything with smart home applications? If so, what is involved and what do you like and dislike?
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Post by the light works on May 2, 2017 2:25:53 GMT
A few days ago my wife and I accidentally locked our selves out of our house. We had to card a door to get back in. My wife was actually rather disturbed how easy it was to do. So now she wants to upgrade the locks. One thing I am interested in is one of those smart lock systems. I could use that as a reason to start building a home automation system. Have you ever done anything with smart home applications? If so, what is involved and what do you like and dislike? my brother's beach house is a full house smarthome. there are a few things we would probably do differently on a fresh start - for one, we went with line voltage smoke detector prewiring and line voltage occupancy sensors, because that's what I'm most familiar with - and if we had gone low voltage we would have had a lot more versatility on that end. I've done a few houses with digital keypad systems, and other than being a little bit of a PITA to assemble, they seem to work okay. (my brother has a RFID reader set at a convenient height so he can just back up to it, or my SIL can put her purse against it) and it releases the door latch. they also have 90% of the lighting on the system, and he can remap the switches, or set special codes; for example, if he hits the off side of the porch light switch at any door, it will put the house in "away" mode and turn off the lights until he gets back an hits the on side of the switch. he also doesn't have any thermostats in the house - the whole heating system is run by thermocouples. the only real problem he has is that he uses a windows platform, so he's had a few times the whole house has gone BSOD. on the other hand, it is nowhere near as restrictive as any of the commercial smarthome systems.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 2, 2017 3:25:33 GMT
A few days ago my wife and I accidentally locked our selves out of our house. We had to card a door to get back in. My wife was actually rather disturbed how easy it was to do. So now she wants to upgrade the locks. One thing I am interested in is one of those smart lock systems. I could use that as a reason to start building a home automation system. Have you ever done anything with smart home applications? If so, what is involved and what do you like and dislike? The last thing I want is my refrigerator and dishwasher conspiring to do me in. I'll stick with mechanical on-off switches. All kidding aside, my son was having problems with one of his roomies always leaving the garage door on his house open. He set up a Raspberry that texts his phone whenever the door is open for more then 10 minutes. He can then check the door via a security camera and if it's clear, he can send a command to close the door. He also has on of those NEST thermostats that can also be controlled via the internet. The only type of automation I have is the security systems. I can check 6 cameras around the house from my iPhone. Sometimes that comes in handy. I have an electronic combination lock on the front door and garage door but that isn't networked.
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Post by the light works on May 2, 2017 5:02:57 GMT
I guess I should say, my brother's house has the capability for him to set it up so he can log in remotely and change the program, but he hasn't actually activated that he can also plug in his laptop and modify the program, live. it's prewired for cameras, but he hasn't installed, those, either.
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Post by silverdragon on May 2, 2017 6:57:07 GMT
I will never admit that a "Smart house" is safe from hackers. We have the full UPVC doors on this house that have complicated multi-pin locks that are "almost" impossible to "Bump" or pick, and if they do come up with a better lock, I know how to replace them, they are multi-point locks, but not completely break-in proof, because Fire/Ambulance/other emergency services, bit that takes some effort, and a LOT of noise, so I would say secure "Enough" for what we have to protect. And there are always windows.
Having an electric device able to open the doors?.. how safe is that code?.
I have. however, taken interest in "Electronic keys", and have discovered with a bit of effort, you can get the same security as a car has on your front door ?.. that makes sense, and would be worth the work. As long as they key code is 100% protected from "The internet", and all internet enabled devices, its almost hack proof.
However, a 100% secure multi-pin door lock from a reputable company with a "spare" hidden in a safe place [such as inside the carpet on a car] and not just under a flower pot that everyone else does, maybe arrange a spare key swap with a trusted neighbour or close friend?.. [as we have done..] who can be relied upon to forgive a late night knock on the knowledge you will do the same for them, as long as it is not abused?..
As of this time, I have heard too many scare stories from hacked smart houses to begin to trust that idea. Its like trusting a new version of Windows, you wait for SP2 to come out before you know they kicked some of the bugs out....
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Post by the light works on May 2, 2017 14:09:31 GMT
I will never admit that a "Smart house" is safe from hackers. We have the full UPVC doors on this house that have complicated multi-pin locks that are "almost" impossible to "Bump" or pick, and if they do come up with a better lock, I know how to replace them, they are multi-point locks, but not completely break-in proof, because Fire/Ambulance/other emergency services, bit that takes some effort, and a LOT of noise, so I would say secure "Enough" for what we have to protect. And there are always windows. Having an electric device able to open the doors?.. how safe is that code?. I have. however, taken interest in "Electronic keys", and have discovered with a bit of effort, you can get the same security as a car has on your front door ?.. that makes sense, and would be worth the work. As long as they key code is 100% protected from "The internet", and all internet enabled devices, its almost hack proof. However, a 100% secure multi-pin door lock from a reputable company with a "spare" hidden in a safe place [such as inside the carpet on a car] and not just under a flower pot that everyone else does, maybe arrange a spare key swap with a trusted neighbour or close friend?.. [as we have done..] who can be relied upon to forgive a late night knock on the knowledge you will do the same for them, as long as it is not abused?.. As of this time, I have heard too many scare stories from hacked smart houses to begin to trust that idea. Its like trusting a new version of Windows, you wait for SP2 to come out before you know they kicked some of the bugs out.... I go by the "it doesn't have to be invulnerable, just more trouble than it is worth" mindset. with my brothers house, you can hack it, but you have to be inside the house and have his programming software on your computer to do it. the electronic keypad locks are built to be resistant to guessing the code. most of them have a time-out period after a few failed attempts. mechanical code lockboxes, I can hack within a half hour; which is a bit quieter than brute force. I haven't tried actually doing a brute force attack, so I don't know how long it takes, or how much force is required. I would imagine a sledgehammer would crush it, once you got it on a hard surface.
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Post by wvengineer on May 2, 2017 18:17:49 GMT
So what are the locks that you have actually worked with and how do you review them?
Next, these systems usually have a central controller. Thoughts? While TLW's friend's place sounds very nice, it sounds like it is above my budget. I would like to start small and expand over time.
How about smart thermostats? What do you think of a Next setup?
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Post by GTCGreg on May 2, 2017 19:06:23 GMT
So what are the locks that you have actually worked with and how do you review them? Next, these systems usually have a central controller. Thoughts? While TLW's friend's place sounds very nice, it sounds like it is above my budget. I would like to start small and expand over time. How about smart thermostats? What do you think of a Next setup? As I said, my son has a NE ST thermostat. It's really kind of clever as to how it works. Your can manually enter your set-back temperature and times like a regular programmable stat, but it can also learn on its own if you want it to. It is also wi-fi connected to the internet. It can get weather data from the web and display things like outside temperature, humidity and pressure without any out-door sensors or wires. You can also get a smart phone app and change your home's temperature or turn on the A/C from your phone anywhere you have cell service. There is no special wiring. Just connect the wires from your old stat and you're ready to go. A lot of nice features but at $250, still a little out of my price range.
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Post by the light works on May 2, 2017 22:10:51 GMT
So what are the locks that you have actually worked with and how do you review them? Next, these systems usually have a central controller. Thoughts? While TLW's friend's place sounds very nice, it sounds like it is above my budget. I would like to start small and expand over time. How about smart thermostats? What do you think of a Next setup? Nest makes a plethora of wi-fi connected widgets. one of the poodles who I've worked with loves the heck out of them. I think the digital locks I have dealt with are Schlage not overly expensive, and not hackable, because they aren't connected, and they have a timeout feature in case someone tries to do a trial and error entry. the drawback is that they are battery powered, and this model doesn't have an outside keyhole. also, conveniently, you only need the code to get in, you can just press the nameplate to engage the knob and lock it. I've also dealt with this style most of the same benefits of the touchpad, but with a keyhole so you can unlock manually. for my own "forgotten key" entry system I use this you can crack the combination more easily than the electronic ones, but they are cheap and durable, and there are no batteries to go bad.
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Post by the light works on May 2, 2017 22:14:00 GMT
So what are the locks that you have actually worked with and how do you review them? Next, these systems usually have a central controller. Thoughts? While TLW's friend's place sounds very nice, it sounds like it is above my budget. I would like to start small and expand over time. How about smart thermostats? What do you think of a Next setup? As I said, my son has a NE ST thermostat. It's really kind of clever as to how it works. Your can manually enter your set-back temperature and times like a regular programmable stat, but it can also learn on its own if you want it to. It is also wi-fi connected to the internet. It can get weather data from the web and display things like outside temperature, humidity and pressure without any out-door sensors or wires. You can also get a smart phone app and change your home's temperature or turn on the A/C from your phone anywhere you have cell service. There is no special wiring. Just connect the wires from your old stat and you're ready to go. A lot of nice features but at $250, still a little out of my price range. to be clear, the NEST system is made up of independent things that are programmed via Wi-Fi. this makes them a good candidate for building a system as you go.
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Post by silverdragon on May 3, 2017 5:49:23 GMT
www.tomsguide.com/us/nest-spying-hack,news-19290.html Just going to leave this here to be read at your own peril. The site is "safe", the information inside may leave you uneasy?.. What they are saying is its more or less a "Raspberry Pi" inside, and can be hacked easily, if you have manual access to it.[and know what your doing...] "You dont let just anyone in your home", good, but what about those you do?. It has proven unhackable at the moment to people outside your home, but only "So Far".... I am sure someone eventually will. Linux is not, as myth says, unhackable, its just the updates are more friendly, and only go in when they are proven to work, so no update to cure the update of the update kind of thing. The NEST relies upon Cloud updates, and we all know, updates always work dont they?..[dig up that old Vista[-spit spit] o/s...] no one has tried this yet, but suggestions are, a nearby NEST system can be used to "Harvest" your details from Cloud communications. well they would say this wouldnt they?.. And yet almost daily there is information about another hacked home "Internet of everything" device. Having a system that knows your not home on your own property broadcasting that to nearby devices?.. OF COURSE thats safe, what was I thinking about?.. [/sarcasm... but only because this is the end of my post?.. ]
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Post by the light works on May 3, 2017 14:10:48 GMT
www.tomsguide.com/us/nest-spying-hack,news-19290.html Just going to leave this here to be read at your own peril. The site is "safe", the information inside may leave you uneasy?.. What they are saying is its more or less a "Raspberry Pi" inside, and can be hacked easily, if you have manual access to it.[and know what your doing...] "You dont let just anyone in your home", good, but what about those you do?. It has proven unhackable at the moment to people outside your home, but only "So Far".... I am sure someone eventually will. Linux is not, as myth says, unhackable, its just the updates are more friendly, and only go in when they are proven to work, so no update to cure the update of the update kind of thing. The NEST relies upon Cloud updates, and we all know, updates always work dont they?..[dig up that old Vista[-spit spit] o/s...] no one has tried this yet, but suggestions are, a nearby NEST system can be used to "Harvest" your details from Cloud communications. well they would say this wouldnt they?.. And yet almost daily there is information about another hacked home "Internet of everything" device. Having a system that knows your not home on your own property broadcasting that to nearby devices?.. OF COURSE thats safe, what was I thinking about?.. [/sarcasm... but only because this is the end of my post?.. ] which goes along with my comments about the next generation being the least private of any generation, ever. and the FBI no longer needs a search warrant, they just need a fakebook account.
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Post by Lokifan on May 25, 2017 22:34:56 GMT
Honeywell makes several wifi thermostats that are much cheaper than Nest (about $79 on sale).
They're fully programmable as well. The one I bought doesn't learn, but how useful is that?
Stay away from GE/Wink lighting. It regularly unprograms itself.
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Post by wvengineer on May 26, 2017 14:31:22 GMT
Thanks for the heads up Loki.
Some life events have come up and I am putting this project on hold until I am able to figure out what the future will hold for me.
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Post by silverdragon on May 28, 2017 10:36:03 GMT
Honeywell makes several wifi thermostats that are much cheaper than Nest (about $79 on sale). They're fully programmable as well. The one I bought doesn't learn, but how useful is that? Stay away from GE/Wink lighting. It regularly unprograms itself. Self learning. This is all about the learning curve in the things that learn how to heat up the home. "Occupation" is a time set in the HVAC trade, and the reaction time from boiler start to occupation time is a parabola over time, dependant on Degree Day [the average of outside temp and outside influences] and time taken to gain occupation temp. Self learning allows the thermostat to work out how long it needs to start the boiler before occupation. This changes season by season and day by day, in that a cold day needs longer to warm up?.. The self learning "best fit" is to sense outside temps and average cooling speed of the building, reference existing inside temp, and work out time needed to raise the temp to the set occupation temp, and then tolerance of the user, if they dont mind .5degC "As long as the heating is on", the occupation can be set to achieve say 20.5 instead of 21 at occupation start. The less time you have a boiler running the more efficient it is... this self learning is pretty much a good idea if you can?..
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Post by GTCGreg on May 28, 2017 16:22:49 GMT
For many years now, I've been using an X-10 based system to control a number of indoor lamps and one outdoor light from a wireless switch pad mounted on the wall. The way the system works is that the switch pad sends an RF command to a plugged in receiver module that also serves as a one channel light controller. The signal is then relayed to the other controller modules over the power line. This system has served me well for many years until recently. It seems that many newer devices contain chopper power supplies that create so much noise on the power line that the X-10 system can't get it's signal through. The RF part of the system still works fine.
I'm looking for something to replace the X-10 system that works entirely on RF (wi-fi, bluetooth, whatever). I don't need to control the system from my iPhone or over the internet or anything like that. Just control about six channels of lighting from a wall pad.
Any ideas?
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Post by wvengineer on May 28, 2017 18:29:02 GMT
Check out something called Z-Wave. That is the most popular wireless communication protocol for home automation these days. It operates similar to Bluetooth, but much lower power and on different frequencies so there is less interference to maximize the power it uses.
You need a system controller, the control switch and a remote power relay. Depending on the system you could setup a program that when the switch is activated, it will toggle the relay.
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Post by GTCGreg on May 28, 2017 23:59:12 GMT
Check out something called Z-Wave. That is the most popular wireless communication protocol for home automation these days. It operates similar to Bluetooth, but much lower power and on different frequencies so there is less interference to maximize the power it uses. You need a system controller, the control switch and a remote power relay. Depending on the system you could setup a program that when the switch is activated, it will toggle the relay. Thanks, I'll look into that.
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Post by the light works on May 29, 2017 1:53:35 GMT
For many years now, I've been using an X-10 based system to control a number of indoor lamps and one outdoor light from a wireless switch pad mounted on the wall. The way the system works is that the switch pad sends an RF command to a plugged in receiver module that also serves as a one channel light controller. The signal is then relayed to the other controller modules over the power line. This system has served me well for many years until recently. It seems that many newer devices contain chopper power supplies that create so much noise on the power line that the X-10 system can't get it's signal through. The RF part of the system still works fine. I'm looking for something to replace the X-10 system that works entirely on RF (wi-fi, bluetooth, whatever). I don't need to control the system from my iPhone or over the internet or anything like that. Just control about six channels of lighting from a wall pad. Any ideas? Lutron Radio RA fits that spec. www.lutron.com/en-US/Products/Pages/WholeHomeSystems/RadioRA2/Overview.aspx
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Post by GTCGreg on May 29, 2017 18:38:40 GMT
For many years now, I've been using an X-10 based system to control a number of indoor lamps and one outdoor light from a wireless switch pad mounted on the wall. The way the system works is that the switch pad sends an RF command to a plugged in receiver module that also serves as a one channel light controller. The signal is then relayed to the other controller modules over the power line. This system has served me well for many years until recently. It seems that many newer devices contain chopper power supplies that create so much noise on the power line that the X-10 system can't get it's signal through. The RF part of the system still works fine. I'm looking for something to replace the X-10 system that works entirely on RF (wi-fi, bluetooth, whatever). I don't need to control the system from my iPhone or over the internet or anything like that. Just control about six channels of lighting from a wall pad. Any ideas? Lutron Radio RA fits that spec. www.lutron.com/en-US/Products/Pages/WholeHomeSystems/RadioRA2/Overview.aspxLooked at the Lutron and Z-Wave products but decided to give Insteon a try. While Lutron seems to generally have higher ratings as far as their communications protocol goes, Insteon has a lot more variety of products and at a somewhat lower cost. Lutron also seems better suited for whole house applications but I just want to control one room. I ordered a bunch of Insteon stuff from Amazon. I'll let you know how it works out after I have the system set up.
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