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Post by Lokifan on May 31, 2017 17:22:56 GMT
Finally saw this the other night, and two simple myths occurred to me.
Early in the picture, there is a brief fight underwater between Harlequin and Batman.
She slashes at Batman with a knife; he dodges and punches her unconscious with one blow.
1. Can someone swing a knife underwater fast enough to be a real threat?
2. Can you hit someone hard enough underwater to knock them out.
Personally, just like firing a bullet, I think the resistance of the water would keep these attacks to relatively slow motion. That's not to say you couldn't hurt someone (especially with the knife), just that the motions would be considerably slower than in air.
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Post by the light works on Jun 1, 2017 3:56:43 GMT
Finally saw this the other night, and two simple myths occurred to me. Early in the picture, there is a brief fight underwater between Harlequin and Batman. She slashes at Batman with a knife; he dodges and punches her unconscious with one blow. 1. Can someone swing a knife underwater fast enough to be a real threat? 2. Can you hit someone hard enough underwater to knock them out. Personally, just like firing a bullet, I think the resistance of the water would keep these attacks to relatively slow motion. That's not to say you couldn't hurt someone (especially with the knife), just that the motions would be considerably slower than in air. I'll buy that as a testable myth. I'm going with the knife being a better candidate for plausibility - because while the resistance of the water slows your swing, it also slows their response - which leaves the question of making contact with enough pressure behind the knife to cause damage.
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Post by Lokifan on Jun 1, 2017 5:32:32 GMT
Found the scene.
That knife looks like it's moving too fast, maybe.
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Post by the light works on Jun 1, 2017 14:12:38 GMT
the punching a shark episode may be relevant.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 1, 2017 16:30:42 GMT
In order;
1; Plausible with a reasonably sharp knife due to its hydrodynamic shape. It doesn't take that much force to cut skin.
2; Interesting, MB did punch sharks but I don't recall them actually measuring if there was any difference in force in water. And in any case I recall they lowered the punching force to avoid injuring the sharks.
I'm actually more interested not just in the force of a punch underwater, but also if the water would cushion the skull to a point that you'd actually need even greater force to knock someone out.
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Post by Lokifan on Jun 1, 2017 16:45:27 GMT
Seems like a simple setup.
Put Buster in the pool with a force sensor. Punch him. Measure the result.
Get a doctor to find out how hard a "one punch KO" is.
Compare.
Then, supersize it with a professional boxer/MMA/Navy SEAL--a tough guy, and see if it works.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 1, 2017 17:23:34 GMT
From a little research its not as easy as X-amount of force will knock someone out. There are a lot of variables; Location of blow, force of blow, if target sees a punch coming and is able to brace and of course individual tolerance (which can be increased thru, well, actually getting hit).
The most common reason for a knockout is the head being whipped around and causing the brain to impact on the skull; hence why I'm wondering if the cushioning effect of water would actually make it impossible for anyone to hit someone hard enough underwater to knock them out. (Stun them maybe)
There are actually a lot of variables here, from the straight punch seen in the clip. To the uppercut and hook boxers look to perform. So the punching rig would need to be more complex than the one used for punching sharks. Likewise judging the likely hood of a blow possibly knocking someone out, or stunning them to the point they might as well be unconscious, is going to require more than just a simple force gauge. It's also going to require something that can simulate the movement of the brain in the skull. So for once this might not be a job for Buster.
Note; FAR from dismissing the myth. I actually like this one. The answer isn't clear cut, it would require some creative thinking regarding the build and the testing seems like very classic MythBusters without actually repeating anything that has really been done before.
*Edit/thought*; I wonder if this might go well with a superhero trope where a superstrong hero claps their hands together or opens their arms underwater to create a tidal wave? Usually this is/was done by the Hulk. Maybe modify the 'punching' rig so it can clap*, add extra motors and a pair of 'Hulk hands' and let rip in a swimming pool to see what happens.
*If the rig can perform a right hook then it can be modified to clap.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 1, 2017 17:58:07 GMT
With regard the Harkey Quinn scene: She had already been in a car that crashed isn't the water, and spent sometime trapped in it she may have been easier to knock out than normal as she was already concussed and oxygen deprived.
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Post by Lokifan on Jun 1, 2017 18:17:26 GMT
True, but she also seemed to be lying in wait--hence the blade being gripped in her hand, ready to strike.
Plus, she's insane. Does that help?
Possible hysterical strength/stamina?
Maybe unseen drug use?
I read something about the actress learning to hold her breath for several minutes, as well.
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Post by the light works on Jun 2, 2017 1:37:32 GMT
It is an interesting puzzle. lots of parameters involved I like it.
can the punch hit as hard? will the water dampen the head motion? I'm seeing a lot to work with.
and as long as buster i waterproofed, it seems like the closest they've come to what he was originally meant for.
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Post by Lokifan on Jun 2, 2017 2:47:54 GMT
Plus, we've got Newton's Third Law to deal with.
Equal and opposite reaction.
Unless you're holding onto something, won't the force of the blow push you back? And by how much?
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Post by the light works on Jun 2, 2017 3:19:57 GMT
Plus, we've got Newton's Third Law to deal with. Equal and opposite reaction. Unless you're holding onto something, won't the force of the blow push you back? And by how much? good catch. the bouyancy of the water reduces your traction. but you are striking the person rather than pushing them. so a lot of the reaction is used up in decelerating you.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 2, 2017 5:43:34 GMT
On the score of the brain wobbling about in the skull. If you punch someone stood up, the neck works as a "shock absorber" to prevent the brain moving suddenly against the back of the skull. In water... the water prevents the head moving back?.
Test, put the shock-watch on the back of a head on a normally sprung neck and punch. Put the head against a headrest, repeat.
"Float" the head in a bath of water, repeat.
Does the lack of ability of the head to move backwards in water create more "Damage" inside?.. thus less of a force in the punch create equal damage to an out of water punch?. Or ever greater damage?. I can see Adams "jelly" brain in a jar being recreated to show how graphic this is here?.
"For every action", yes, but, I have to ask, if you have the above water resisting movement on your whole body when you punch, would that not decrease your own tendency to move back when you punch?. Most boxer lean into a good punch, but would being in water help or hinder?.. time to test?..
Get a force meter and a boxer. Get boxer to punch force meter. Repeat with Boxer shoulder deep in water.... target out of the water...more or less force?. Repeat with a "Low blow" where the boxer is punching the target under the surface of the water, again with the boxer in and out of the water.
I could also say let the boxer "Train" in the water to see if he can get used to the idea of water resistance.... They do say the Bat-person trains for every eventuality?.. has he been trained into underwater punching, and, does that training help?.
I would suggest to keep it the same as the film scene that this should be the "Inch punch" type short range punch... no more that a couple of foot, say 18 inch swing max. If you start swinging hay-maker long range punches in water, your muscles will tire quickly?..
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 2, 2017 7:33:51 GMT
Side question loosely attached...
Question, how much force is lost over distance. We know a bullet slows in air, we know it slows a "hell of a lot" faster in water, but by how much respectively?.
If an unpowered projectile looses three feet per second[squared?] in air, what is that in water?.
AFAIK, Until Adam shot into that swimming pool with the "50 cal", "no one" had done that kind of experiment?..
We know hydro-dymanics for Boats, we know aerodynamics for water, but what of the crossover for un-aerodynamic body usually moving in air now moving on water... What is the scientific part of "It slows down a hell of a lot". Until MB's tested, a body falling into water was presumed "Its like hitting concrete at speed"
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 2, 2017 7:46:33 GMT
Thinking out loud here... In addition to above posts. Put a force meter on a boxers glove, let him shadow box... it has to be a waterproof force meter, as you will see. How much force is being registered by air resistance?. Let them now punch down into a bucket of water... you may need to waterproof the slow-mo camera for this one?.. What is the "spike" in force measured by the water blow... is it "Like hitting a wall", is it the same as hitting a bag?..
Go to my above experiments where I put a shock-watch on the back of a head to be punched. two posts above this one... Repeat with a force meter on the glove... I suggest a shock watch sticker because we sort of know already what force would be required, but it could as easily be done with a handful of tiny waterproof force meters stuck wherever you think may be necessary?. top-side-front-chin-neck...?, and glove-hand-wrist-elbow of the boxer?.
What is the difference in force imparted above and under water. Is the lesser force equivalent to a knock-out?.
Can a NON boxer replicate the force applied by the under water hit of the boxer to an out-of-water head, and will that be enough to be medically measured as the force required to knock someone unconscious.
I am suspecting again that the Bat-Person here has "Trained" to within an inch of his ability to be good at everything and can deliver a knock-out blow almost without trying "if needs must", and could therefore deliver an underwater punch suitable to render someone unconscious..../ I am suggesting with all this testing I expect "Plausible" result....
But then again, I am asking for testing to see if that be true... I wont be drawn much more that expected plausible?.. and of course, failure is always an option, but not trying at all is worse.
Can anyone clean up this to make a better ideal for testing or is it working as it is?.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 2, 2017 8:00:44 GMT
Again thinking out loud, this time on the knife attack.
Again with the force meters. Get a side of pork and a knife, and measure how much it takes to break the skin. Let fly with the knife above water, put that to one side to compare, complete with the results from the force meters on how much power had been imparted to the impact of the kniife. Repeat under water... Compare the cuts. Would the underwater slash have broken skin, and if it had, how deadly would that be if it had hit an artery.
Repeat with a VERY blunt knife [AKA "A stick"] of approximate same size and resistance in water, against a wary defendant wearing suitable protection, could they defend such a blow easily, and protect themself against that type of attack. Especially from possible oxygen deprived attacker.... You ..may../ ?.. ok, / Will,... **definitely suggested do not try this without kind of thing**,... WILL need trained divers ready to pull the attacker out of they loose their breath doing this. Even in a shallow pond....
I may even suggest a harness ready to pull either participant out at the slightest worry?.. how hard would it be to design a weighted counterweight crane that can lift someone out of a pool to a reasonable height and dump them on the side quickly?.. And NOT injure them by doing so?.. its all about the harness, but designing one to work in water?.. I think I could do that... maybe an emergency airbag deployment at depth and then crane out of the water?.. get a fast reaction line that takes the strain quickly and then locks in place whilst the counterweight drops?. Guess who is going to be playing in his pond this afternoon.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 2, 2017 8:12:28 GMT
More thinking.... I have a toy submarine. I have been playing with it on my desk. Instead of working the thrusters, I have just managed to get it to turn a valve instead.... I have a small air-tank used for storing air on an old fish tank toy that used to send a diver up and down at regular intervals.. I stopped using it as it scared the fish, and the pump wasnt up to much in pressurising this tank. Its negatively buoyant and weighs as much as a "AA" battery in water. If I attached an easy inflatable balloon or even a strong plastic bag, that may work as an emergency air-bag to lift a person up to the surface if you up-scaled this idea... remote control emergency surfacing?.. using an "Emergency air tank" to fill the lift bag on a remote controlled valve?.. have a swimmer in the pool ready to receive and attach a line to the harness to lift the person out of the water...
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Post by the light works on Jun 2, 2017 13:58:03 GMT
More thinking.... I have a toy submarine. I have been playing with it on my desk. Instead of working the thrusters, I have just managed to get it to turn a valve instead.... I have a small air-tank used for storing air on an old fish tank toy that used to send a diver up and down at regular intervals.. I stopped using it as it scared the fish, and the pump wasnt up to much in pressurising this tank. Its negatively buoyant and weighs as much as a "AA" battery in water. If I attached an easy inflatable balloon or even a strong plastic bag, that may work as an emergency air-bag to lift a person up to the surface if you up-scaled this idea... remote control emergency surfacing?.. using an "Emergency air tank" to fill the lift bag on a remote controlled valve?.. have a swimmer in the pool ready to receive and attach a line to the harness to lift the person out of the water... I have had an idea that when you are moving your heavy loads, you could put a sort of a round thing under the load, and maybe put it on a long shaft so as the round thing turns fast enough for the load to be carried down the road, the survace velocity of the shaft is lower, and then you can put rollers around that so as to reduce the friction. yes, you are reinventing the wheel.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 3, 2017 7:40:25 GMT
More thinking.... I have a toy submarine. I have been playing with it on my desk. Instead of working the thrusters, I have just managed to get it to turn a valve instead.... I have a small air-tank used for storing air on an old fish tank toy that used to send a diver up and down at regular intervals.. I stopped using it as it scared the fish, and the pump wasnt up to much in pressurising this tank. Its negatively buoyant and weighs as much as a "AA" battery in water. If I attached an easy inflatable balloon or even a strong plastic bag, that may work as an emergency air-bag to lift a person up to the surface if you up-scaled this idea... remote control emergency surfacing?.. using an "Emergency air tank" to fill the lift bag on a remote controlled valve?.. have a swimmer in the pool ready to receive and attach a line to the harness to lift the person out of the water... I have had an idea that when you are moving your heavy loads, you could put a sort of a round thing under the load, and maybe put it on a long shaft so as the round thing turns fast enough for the load to be carried down the road, the survace velocity of the shaft is lower, and then you can put rollers around that so as to reduce the friction. yes, you are reinventing the wheel. Serious?.. they have those emergency surfacing air bags for SCUBA work?.. You learn something new every day... I did not know that.
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Post by the light works on Jun 3, 2017 14:55:10 GMT
I have had an idea that when you are moving your heavy loads, you could put a sort of a round thing under the load, and maybe put it on a long shaft so as the round thing turns fast enough for the load to be carried down the road, the survace velocity of the shaft is lower, and then you can put rollers around that so as to reduce the friction. yes, you are reinventing the wheel. Serious?.. they have those emergency surfacing air bags for SCUBA work?.. You learn something new every day... I did not know that. it's called a bouyancy compensator. normally it's used to maintain neutral bouyancy, but most modern ones have a CO2 cartridge with a lanyard that turns it into an emergency life vest. keeping in mind that in SCUBA, it is generally considered a bad idea to surface faster than an air bubble, anyway.
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