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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 28, 2017 13:19:07 GMT
According to several councils in the UK and some US towns, including San Diego, dog urine is responsible for corroding the bases of street lights. This was even given as the cause for a lamp post falling and killing someone in the UK a few years back. But is this true or are we being unfair to our canine companions? Might the culprit be simple salt that is sprayed off roads in wet weather or in the case of coastal towns salt water off the sea? news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/2938749.stm
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Post by the light works on Jul 28, 2017 14:11:49 GMT
According to several councils in the UK and some US towns, including San Diego, dog urine is responsible for corroding the bases of street lights. This was even given as the cause for a lamp post falling and killing someone in the UK a few years back. But is this true or are we being unfair to our canine companions? Might the culprit be simple salt that is sprayed off roads in wet weather or in the case of coastal towns salt water off the sea? news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derbyshire/2938749.stmsounds like a good candidate for smelly/messy/gross. seems to me, the first step would be to do a chemical comparison of animal urine this way, if they are all similar, anyway, they can go with the easiest urine to collect. then they can have a side by side comparison of animal urine, human urine, road salt brine, and seawater. of course, in the end, there is always the question of whether they should have built the light poles better. we have a decorative one broken off on occasion in my town, but I frequently suspect bad driving to be involved.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 28, 2017 14:39:29 GMT
Dog urine would be the easiest to collect, given that they have Bo; Brian's dog.
Dogs are also the only animals I can think of that are likely to urinate against street lights, which would explain why they get blamed.
Cat urine is likely to be more acidic than dog urine, since cats have to eat more meat than dogs* and have more concentrated urine**. But they are far less likely to be urinating against street furniture.
(*Dogs are omnivores, and not only can but should eat vegetable matter as part of their diet to remain in good condition. Cat's however have to eat meat as it contains nutrients they can't produce on their own.) (**Cat's evolved in a desert environment, so they produce concentrated urine and fairly dry excrement to retain water. This is also why cats can overeat if only given dry food, as they evolved to get most of their water from their food rather than by drinking)
Observation; MB used dog poo for testing 'Poo hits the fan', although that was for developing a stand in for poo rather than for the tests themselves for several understandable reasons. It kind of makes sense to move on to using dog urine from there as a 'Welcome to Mythbusters, where you will be expected to at least dry heave once a season if not actually vomit.'
Thought; Maybe MB could design and place collectors at the base of a couple of street lights in their area to collect runoff to see what is actually collecting at the bases? That way they could figure out exactly what the metal might be exposed to and maybe how much dog urine is there.
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Post by the light works on Jul 28, 2017 15:08:22 GMT
Dog urine would be the easiest to collect, given that they have Bo; Brian's dog. Dogs are also the only animals I can think of that are likely to urinate against street lights, which would explain why they get blamed. Cat urine is likely to be more acidic than dog urine, since cats have to eat more meat than dogs* and have more concentrated urine**. But they are far less likely to be urinating against street furniture. (*Dogs are omnivores, and not only can but should eat vegetable matter as part of their diet to remain in good condition. Cat's however have to eat meat as it contains nutrients they can't produce on their own.) (**Cat's evolved in a desert environment, so they produce concentrated urine and fairly dry excrement to retain water. This is also why cats can overeat if only given dry food, as they evolved to get most of their water from their food rather than by drinking) Observation; MB used dog poo for testing 'Poo hits the fan', although that was for developing a stand in for poo rather than for the tests themselves for several understandable reasons. It kind of makes sense to move on to using dog urine from there as a 'Welcome to Mythbusters, where you will be expected to at least dry heave once a season if not actually vomit.' Thought; Maybe MB could design and place collectors at the base of a couple of street lights in their area to collect runoff to see what is actually collecting at the bases? That way they could figure out exactly what the metal might be exposed to and maybe how much dog urine is there. male cats mark territory with urine, as well. and really, the suggestion to compare urine samples was to make them spend more time collecting and analyzing urine. - I remember there was an episode where they had to collect dog urine, and it was quite a challenge for them. - although one bucket of horse urine would give them a much bigger supply for the effort. I do like the idea of swabbing street lights for samples, though. then they could analyze the swabs to determine what was actually on them.
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Post by mrfatso on Jul 28, 2017 15:57:52 GMT
We are omnivores but have to eat meat to get some vitamins we cannot produce ourselves, B12 is one. Well strictly speaking we can get it from certain plants but you have to make a habit of including them in your diet, it's one reason many vegans suffer from B12 defiecency.
But vitamins are basically chemicals we need in the diet but cannot produce ourselves, vitamin C for example famously is enriched in sauerkraut and citrus fruits.
Collecting dog urine, IIRC guide dogs for the blind are trained to go to the toilet on command and in the UK are trained to urinate into a gutter grate,I don't know if US dogs are similarly trained. If they were you could set up a false drain with a sumo underneath get a guide dog and get it to urinate when asked to by its owner.
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Post by the light works on Jul 29, 2017 0:48:41 GMT
We are omnivores but have to eat meat to get some vitamins we cannot produce ourselves, B12 is one. Well strictly speaking we can get it from certain plants but you have to make a habit of including them in your diet, it's one reason many vegans suffer from B12 defiecency. But vitamins are basically chemicals we need in the diet but cannot produce ourselves, vitamin C for example famously is enriched in sauerkraut and citrus fruits. Collecting dog urine, IIRC guide dogs for the blind are trained to go to the toilet on command and in the UK are trained to urinate into a gutter grate,I don't know if US dogs are similarly trained. If they were you could set up a false drain with a sumo underneath get a guide dog and get it to urinate when asked to by its owner. you're missing the whole point of hving them collect urine.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 29, 2017 1:18:21 GMT
A neighbor had a dog that always peed on the air conditioner. After a few years, the condensing unit completely disintegrated on the side where the dog would relieve himself. We had a lamp post in the downtown district that fell over after a bicyclist leaned on it waiting for the traffic light to change. They blamed it on road salt.
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Post by the light works on Jul 29, 2017 5:45:24 GMT
A neighbor had a dog that always peed on the air conditioner. After a few years, the condensing unit completely disintegrated on the side where the dog would relieve himself. We had a lamp post in the downtown district that fell over after a bicyclist leaned on it waiting for the traffic light to change. They blamed it on road salt. there has been about as much learned about corrosion protection in the last 10 years as in the previous 50. a lot of decorative metalwork is still cast aluminum, which is absolutely terrible as far as corrosion is concerned - it is a porous medium, so atmospheric exposure begins corrosion throughout the thickness of it.
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 29, 2017 13:19:31 GMT
Can we take a moment to discuss the lamp posts....
In our street a few years back they replaced the sodium light old Iron lamp posts with taller brighter not orange but "white" lights... and when I say taller, I mean taller?.. we have the best illuminated roof lops in the whole of Manchester with the 40ft monsters the put up on the main road. And they are Aluminium rather than the old cast iron, on the grounds that they wont need repainting every few years.
So... testing must include old Iron lamp posts, and newer Aluminium posts. And also include old iron that hasn't been painted against painted.
And then when the find out that the Iron NOT painted degrades faster than the painted one, someone do a bean count to see if painting the older posts that still are about is cheaper in the long run, as they used to do, rather than replace them with newer Aluminium ones.
I also note the subject of cast Al against sheet welded Al... is there a difference in how its made and does that allow "rust", in aluminium oxide, to form due to the presence of oxidisers, water, dog pee, human pee, etc.
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Post by the light works on Jul 29, 2017 13:56:20 GMT
Can we take a moment to discuss the lamp posts.... In our street a few years back they replaced the sodium light old Iron lamp posts with taller brighter not orange but "white" lights... and when I say taller, I mean taller?.. we have the best illuminated roof lops in the whole of Manchester with the 40ft monsters the put up on the main road. And they are Aluminium rather than the old cast iron, on the grounds that they wont need repainting every few years. So... testing must include old Iron lamp posts, and newer Aluminium posts. And also include old iron that hasn't been painted against painted. And then when the find out that the Iron NOT painted degrades faster than the painted one, someone do a bean count to see if painting the older posts that still are about is cheaper in the long run, as they used to do, rather than replace them with newer Aluminium ones. I also note the subject of cast Al against sheet welded Al... is there a difference in how its made and does that allow "rust", in aluminium oxide, to form due to the presence of oxidisers, water, dog pee, human pee, etc. you bet your sweet bippy cast aluminum is worse than machined aluminum. the comparison that comes immediately to mind, regarding metallic structure, is comparing meatloaf to steak. I guess if I were to get my mind off my breakfast, you could also compare low grade cast iron to high grade steel. keep in mind that metallic aluminum does not exist in nature. the stuff is so reactive, that its natural state is aluminum oxide. when you make an aluminum billet or extrusion to make a machined aluminum thing, you're creating a perfect 100% aluminum shape with the optimum organized molecular structure, by controlling temperature, and contact with oxygen. one of the side effects of that is the form of oxide it develops seals out oxygen from the rest of the piece. when you make cast aluminum, you throw that controlled environment away, and mix it with air as you cast it. - and are often starting with a lower grade of aluminum on top of it. on reflection, it is a bit like comparing obsidian to basalt.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 29, 2017 14:09:54 GMT
There is a thought; Could this actually be electrolytic corrosion at work?
Metal street fixtures, such as street lights, are known to be capable of building up static electrical charges. And in the case of street lights there is also electrical power flowing through it for several hours which I'm wondering might not build up a faint charge in the metal.
If there is an electrical charge in the metal casing then when a dog urinates on the pole that charge may be discharged through the urine, which being acidic would presumably be a good conductor.
This might also explain the salt angle as well, given that salt water is an electrical conductor.
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Post by the light works on Jul 29, 2017 15:02:23 GMT
There is a thought; Could this actually be electrolytic corrosion at work? Metal street fixtures, such as street lights, are known to be capable of building up static electrical charges. And in the case of street lights there is also electrical power flowing through it for several hours which I'm wondering might not build up a faint charge in the metal. If there is an electrical charge in the metal casing then when a dog urinates on the pole that charge may be discharged through the urine, which being acidic would presumably be a good conductor. This might also explain the salt angle as well, given that salt water is an electrical conductor. any time you connect dissimilar metals, you have electrolysis happening - and you have whatever metal the fixture is made of anchored with steel bolts. theoretically, the induced voltage in the pole is continually drained off regardless of any electrolyte, as everything is supposed to be effectively bonded to ground (earth) potential, but it doesn't take much to develop a voltage gradient in the ground.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 29, 2017 15:15:00 GMT
There is a thought; Could this actually be electrolytic corrosion at work? Metal street fixtures, such as street lights, are known to be capable of building up static electrical charges. And in the case of street lights there is also electrical power flowing through it for several hours which I'm wondering might not build up a faint charge in the metal. If there is an electrical charge in the metal casing then when a dog urinates on the pole that charge may be discharged through the urine, which being acidic would presumably be a good conductor. This might also explain the salt angle as well, given that salt water is an electrical conductor. any time you connect dissimilar metals, you have electrolysis happening - and you have whatever metal the fixture is made of anchored with steel bolts. theoretically, the induced voltage in the pole is continually drained off regardless of any electrolyte, as everything is supposed to be effectively bonded to ground (earth) potential, but it doesn't take much to develop a voltage gradient in the ground. Is tarmac or concrete electrically conductive when dry?
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Post by the light works on Jul 29, 2017 15:24:12 GMT
any time you connect dissimilar metals, you have electrolysis happening - and you have whatever metal the fixture is made of anchored with steel bolts. theoretically, the induced voltage in the pole is continually drained off regardless of any electrolyte, as everything is supposed to be effectively bonded to ground (earth) potential, but it doesn't take much to develop a voltage gradient in the ground. Is tarmac or concrete electrically conductive when dry? concrete is. it is standard procedure to use the rebar in a concrete foundation as the grounding electrode, here. I don't know about tarmac or asphalt.
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Post by silverdragon on Jul 29, 2017 15:25:44 GMT
Hmmm... erm... Well.... I suppose having 480~240 V A/C running through street furniture would be "Bad"?... AFAIK, All street furniture must be "Double insulated" at the power outlet AND earthed, therefore, belt and braces, so as not to have a build up of static or any other kind of electricity.... especially on those parts small children can lick in the cold to stick their tongues to it?.. The locks on the base of the things are extremely difficult to get into if you dont have the right tools.
And after the questions above, ya think ya may wanna stop them doing that?..
But saying that.
Question for any that may know, and how would you find out anyway, just how many lightning strikes happen on street furniture daily around the world, and if you get a billion volt courtesy of Mjolnir, would it A] blow the bloody circuit, B] cause damage, or C] both?..
Does the mere fact that they have electrical currents and therefore possibly a [possible?] magnetic field through them make them attractive to rust/oxidisation?.
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Post by GTCGreg on Jul 29, 2017 15:45:13 GMT
Hmmm... erm... Well.... I suppose having 480~240 V A/C running through street furniture would be "Bad"?... AFAIK, All street furniture must be "Double insulated" at the power outlet AND earthed, therefore, belt and braces, so as not to have a build up of static or any other kind of electricity.... especially on those parts small children can lick in the cold to stick their tongues to it?.. The locks on the base of the things are extremely difficult to get into if you dont have the right tools. And after the questions above, ya think ya may wanna stop them doing that?.. But saying that. Question for any that may know, and how would you find out anyway, just how many lightning strikes happen on street furniture daily around the world, and if you get a billion volt courtesy of Mjolnir, would it A] blow the bloody circuit, B] cause damage, or C] both?.. Does the mere fact that they have electrical currents and therefore possibly a [possible?] magnetic field through them make them attractive to rust/oxidisation?. What causes corrosion isn't the magnetic field, it's a voltage across the contact point of dissimilar metals. And for this voltage to happen, you often don't need an outside voltage source at all. If you have two different metals touching each other, and any type of moisture gets to the contact point, it creates a battery that can cause current to flow through the contact point and erodes the metals. As for lightning, that's very unpredictable. Sometimes a lighting strike to a street light will pass harmlessly to ground. Other times it may cause extensive damage to the electrical system downstream from where the strike actually happened. As you may know, I make electronic controls that are used in the HVAC systems of ambulances. One systems allows the HVAC to continue operation in the ambulance after the engine is shut and the vehicle is connected to shore power. One day, one of our customers sent me a control board that was completely charred. They told me that while the ambulance was sitting outside the hospital connected to shore power, it was struck by lightning. Somehow, the lighting found its way through our circuit board to the shore power connection. The lightning also damaged the circuit breaker inside the building that was feeding the shore power to the ambulance..
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Post by the light works on Jul 29, 2017 16:31:44 GMT
in my own lightning strike experience, I went out on a house that had been struck. our primary job was assessing damage and replacing the TV cable that had been destroyed - I also noticed that the metal corner flashing had been quite literally knocked off of the house and was lying a few feet away from the walls. OTOH, my carpenter friend has been on a sailboat that got struck. he said it was louder and brighter than hell, but once they got themselves reoriented, they were able to go on like nothing had happened.
when lightning gets involved, all bets are off.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 29, 2017 17:25:15 GMT
Having seen corroded posts myself, much of the corrosion seems to be at the base of the access hatch and around the base where it goes into the ground. This makes sense regardless of the actual process, since these are areas in which water would collect and also areas in which the protective paint might have been scraped off during installation or maintenance.
That said the images I'm pulling up for posts falling seem to show that the area of rust and failure is actually just below ground level. This is again logical regardless of the reason for the corrosion, since this area not only includes the main weld between the post and the base plate but is also out of sight.
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Post by the light works on Jul 30, 2017 3:41:40 GMT
Having seen corroded posts myself, much of the corrosion seems to be at the base of the access hatch and around the base where it goes into the ground. This makes sense regardless of the actual process, since these are areas in which water would collect and also areas in which the protective paint might have been scraped off during installation or maintenance. That said the images I'm pulling up for posts falling seem to show that the area of rust and failure is actually just below ground level. This is again logical regardless of the reason for the corrosion, since this area not only includes the main weld between the post and the base plate but is also out of sight. it is also where there is a wet/dry cycle. wood tends to rot most quickly just below ground level, too. the decorative lampposts we have fail, fail just above the decorative base - which is part of why I suspect cars may sometimes be involved. and standard mounting for anything bigger than a street sign tends to be with bolts embedded in concrete - either with a breakaway flange, or not.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jul 30, 2017 4:59:18 GMT
Could the concrete itself be responsible for the corrosion?
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