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Post by ironhold on Aug 24, 2017 5:03:25 GMT
Something I've been musing about as I toy with an idea for a science fiction bit.
Suppose humanity settles on a planet that's reasonably habitable. More or less breathable atmosphere, reasonably fertile soil, natural water supply, et cetra.
What might some of the first crops be?
"The Martian" has pretty well made potatoes a definite, and I would imagine that some sort of legume would be introduced to help keep the soil charged.
But what might be in the mix as well?
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Post by the light works on Aug 24, 2017 14:13:52 GMT
I would say greens would be the first choice. small seeds, and absolute minimum planting to harvest time.
next would be root vegetables like carrots, radishes, etc. more weather sensitive, but still quick and easy to grow.
corn would probably be selected for its versatility. particularly if they were advanced enough to have a genetic lab on board - they could bring a hard variety and then modify it to meet their needs.
carrying seed potatoes would be a problematic endeavor, and growing from seed would significantly delay your first crop, as the first season would basically be building seed potato stock for the next crop.
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Post by wvengineer on Sept 28, 2017 12:12:34 GMT
I would guess corn.
Easy to grow, high yeild for a given stock of seed, quick growing, high caloric content, it is also very easy to breed and manipulate on a genetic level. Strains could be generate beforehand to talor them to the environment.
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 28, 2017 12:22:23 GMT
If growing conditions supported it, wheat would be a good choice. You can get multiple harvests of wheat in a season. Corn and soy beans would also be good choices. They're so much you can do with them.
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 28, 2017 12:45:56 GMT
The answer would be 'it depends'.
The nature of the soil, amount of rainfall during each month, temperatures per month, pests and any wildlife, bacteria and viruses native to that world all will denote what if any crops would be suitable. We know this from countless mistakes made here on Earth, where people looked at things like yearly rainfall figures and missed that all that rain tended to fall in the same month.
The most likely way you'd set up a new colony is 'slowly'. The initial settlers would have a wide range of crop seeds, but actually rely on hydroponics for their food. The seeds they brought with them would be planted in the native soil in small numbers, to see which grow best. Then they would be harvested but instead of eaten would be heavily tested in a lab to make sure that they haven't absorbed anything potentially harmful.
Only after all this, and ideally a couple of years of testing, would large scale crop planting take place with those crops that will fair best.
Incidentally, it is quite possible that the crops that end up doing best might not actually be those types we rely on for food in large numbers on Earth. For example the new colony might be growing rice, but the type used might be a 'wild' rice variety from a part of Australia that can deal with salt water.
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Post by wvengineer on Sept 28, 2017 12:59:09 GMT
Something else to consider is will it be limited to land based crops?
For example, seaweed is a major crop in Japan. You may consider looking at water based crops as an extension of the initial hydroponics.
Rice is another one that grows in low lying flood plains.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 29, 2017 8:51:47 GMT
Spinach.
You have to look at a lot of what can be considered a "Superfood", and think of what may be a good vegetarian diet, so include whatever makes up that "Tofu" that the vegetablists all say is a good meat replacement, and then think on the types of food that are good as supplement to vegetablists foods.
That perhaps needs a discussion in the story line, and try to keep it as factual as possible, to be "up to date" with what modern science has said is a good meat replacement diet.
After all, Met is going to be hard to come by.
And then, if you land on a planet that has some basic life on it, can you be a predator in that landscape, even if its hunting plants, without checking to see first how they react with the human digestion?.
I mention spinach, because its iron rich, and relatively easy to grow. You may get differing mileage, but its worth adding to the list, even if its just to add some taste to something like tofu that is just bland without some form of artificial flavour?.
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Post by the light works on Sept 29, 2017 14:46:15 GMT
in the consideration that anything will require test crops before going into production, the need for a fast crop cycle becomes even more relevant. I would say spinach is probably a good candidate in that - you can get tissue to test in as little as a week.
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Post by mrfatso on Sept 29, 2017 15:32:43 GMT
I think we would have difficulty in digesting alien plants, our bodies have evolved complex systems to breakdown, digest and utilise the molecules that are created by life on Earth.
Vitamins like A,B and C etc. are in essence molecules our bodies need but do not produce in large enough quantities or at all. We do not just break food down to its elemental constituents and reassemble them.
A new worlds flora may not even have the same basic genetic structure as our own of a Double helix let alone form the same kinds of amino acids and therefore proteins, the enzymes we have in our body that lock into certain sites on a protein to break it down would not work.
I think we would be looking at bringing our own crops and seed bacteria not relying on the existing one, unless you take the route of having large genetics labs and either altering humans or altering the local plants to suit you or modifying your livestock . ( That's the route Anne McCaffery went in Dragonsdaw. IIRC)
But I would be looking at having a rapidly cropping food source early on possibly using hydroponics spinach, rocket (celantro), lettuce etc bean sprouts to get the colony started . Nasturtium flowers and leaves are edible and would also add colour.
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Post by the light works on Sept 29, 2017 16:35:46 GMT
I think we would have difficulty in digesting alien plants, our bodies have evolved complex systems to breakdown, digest and utilise the molecules that are created by life on Earth. Vitamins like A,B and C etc. are in essence molecules our bodies need but do not produce in large enough quantities or at all. We do not just break food down to its elemental constituents and reassemble them. A new worlds flora may not even have the same basic genetic structure as our own of a Double helix let alone form the same kinds of amino acids and therefore proteins, the enzymes we have in our body that lock into certain sites on a protein to break it down would not work. I think we would be looking at bringing our own crops and seed bacteria not relying on the existing one, unless you take the route of having large genetics labs and either altering humans or altering the local plants to suit you or modifying your livestock . ( That's the route Anne McCaffery went in Dragonsdaw. IIRC) But I would be looking at having a rapidly cropping food source early on possibly using hydroponics spinach, rocket (celantro), lettuce etc bean sprouts to get the colony started . Nasturtium flowers and leaves are edible and would also add colour. until we actually get out there, we can only speculate on whether all life is built on a common design or whether each planet has its own distinctive design. I.E. are we biologically compatible with extraterrestrial life, or not? we won't know until we get there. and I'll pas son the cilantro. the ex I like to badmouth thought it was a food group.
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 29, 2017 16:46:46 GMT
I think we would have difficulty in digesting alien plants, our bodies have evolved complex systems to breakdown, digest and utilise the molecules that are created by life on Earth. Vitamins like A,B and C etc. are in essence molecules our bodies need but do not produce in large enough quantities or at all. We do not just break food down to its elemental constituents and reassemble them. A new worlds flora may not even have the same basic genetic structure as our own of a Double helix let alone form the same kinds of amino acids and therefore proteins, the enzymes we have in our body that lock into certain sites on a protein to break it down would not work. I think we would be looking at bringing our own crops and seed bacteria not relying on the existing one, unless you take the route of having large genetics labs and either altering humans or altering the local plants to suit you or modifying your livestock . ( That's the route Anne McCaffery went in Dragonsdaw. IIRC) But I would be looking at having a rapidly cropping food source early on possibly using hydroponics spinach, rocket (celantro), lettuce etc bean sprouts to get the colony started . Nasturtium flowers and leaves are edible and would also add colour. until we actually get out there, we can only speculate on whether all life is built on a common design or whether each planet has its own distinctive design. I.E. are we biologically compatible with extraterrestrial life, or not? we won't know until we get there. and I'll pas son the cilantro. the ex I like to badmouth thought it was a food group. First we have to find a planet with any life at all on it, then we can decide if we can eat it.
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 29, 2017 17:36:28 GMT
The question as posed was 'what crops would be ideal for an off Earth Colony?'.
As it turns out this is the wrong question to ask. The real question would be 'do/would we NEED to grow Earth crops on other worlds?'
If you are talking about a world that already has a native ecology the LAST thing you should be doing is introducing new species to that world. We've seen the effects of doing that on Earth, and the result has tended towards devastating existing habitats.
The smarter thing to do is to give your advanced scouting group a hydroponic facility so they can grow their own food in a controlled environment; They would probably need this for any protracted voyage, or failing that to guard against Earth crops simply not growing in that environment. While the hydroponics bay grows Earth crops, the scouts collect and examine the local fauna and flora to see if it is edible and if so what might be suitable for cultivation. Cost wise it makes more sense to look at cultivating local species, as that means you don't have to import seeds. It also potentially means that the colony has something it might be able to export in the long run, which would foster development and help recover the original start up costs.
This isn't going to be quick, your scouts would need to remain on world for a couple of years to get usable data and might even have to relocate or expand their search area to find suitable plants or farming land.
Expect the initial colony to have a number of large prefabricated 'huts'. Some would be for growing Earth crops for consumption, the fertilizer coming from the crews own waste (sterilized of course, as you could easily have small packets of earth bacteria to add to the night soil). The other huts would be used to see how Earth crops grow in the local soil, without risking any species escaping and 'going native'. And to test grow any promising local species.
Note; Even a Corporate run colony world would probably want to work this way, as contaminating the local environment risks destroying species that might actually have commercial uses. Not very helpful to discover that a local species of plant makes for a revolutionary medicine after your imported crops have wiped them out.
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Post by the light works on Sept 29, 2017 17:45:23 GMT
The question as posed was 'what crops would be ideal for an off Earth Colony?'. As it turns out this is the wrong question to ask. The real question would be 'do/would we NEED to grow Earth crops on other worlds?' If you are talking about a world that already has a native ecology the LAST thing you should be doing is introducing new species to that world. We've seen the effects of doing that on Earth, and the result has tended towards devastating existing habitats. The smarter thing to do is to give your advanced scouting group a hydroponic facility so they can grow their own food in a controlled environment; They would probably need this for any protracted voyage, or failing that to guard against Earth crops simply not growing in that environment. While the hydroponics bay grows Earth crops, the scouts collect and examine the local fauna and flora to see if it is edible and if so what might be suitable for cultivation. Cost wise it makes more sense to look at cultivating local species, as that means you don't have to import seeds. It also potentially means that the colony has something it might be able to export in the long run, which would foster development and help recover the original start up costs. This isn't going to be quick, your scouts would need to remain on world for a couple of years to get usable data and might even have to relocate or expand their search area to find suitable plants or farming land. Expect the initial colony to have a number of large prefabricated 'huts'. Some would be for growing Earth crops for consumption, the fertilizer coming from the crews own waste (sterilized of course, as you could easily have small packets of earth bacteria to add to the night soil). The other huts would be used to see how Earth crops grow in the local soil, without risking any species escaping and 'going native'. And to test grow any promising local species. Note; Even a Corporate run colony world would probably want to work this way, as contaminating the local environment risks destroying species that might actually have commercial uses. Not very helpful to discover that a local species of plant makes for a revolutionary medicine after your imported crops have wiped them out. yeah, it is a simple question leading into a complex topic.
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 29, 2017 18:11:48 GMT
The question as posed was 'what crops would be ideal for an off Earth Colony?'. As it turns out this is the wrong question to ask. The real question would be 'do/would we NEED to grow Earth crops on other worlds?' If you are talking about a world that already has a native ecology the LAST thing you should be doing is introducing new species to that world. We've seen the effects of doing that on Earth, and the result has tended towards devastating existing habitats. The smarter thing to do is to give your advanced scouting group a hydroponic facility so they can grow their own food in a controlled environment; They would probably need this for any protracted voyage, or failing that to guard against Earth crops simply not growing in that environment. While the hydroponics bay grows Earth crops, the scouts collect and examine the local fauna and flora to see if it is edible and if so what might be suitable for cultivation. Cost wise it makes more sense to look at cultivating local species, as that means you don't have to import seeds. It also potentially means that the colony has something it might be able to export in the long run, which would foster development and help recover the original start up costs. This isn't going to be quick, your scouts would need to remain on world for a couple of years to get usable data and might even have to relocate or expand their search area to find suitable plants or farming land. Expect the initial colony to have a number of large prefabricated 'huts'. Some would be for growing Earth crops for consumption, the fertilizer coming from the crews own waste (sterilized of course, as you could easily have small packets of earth bacteria to add to the night soil). The other huts would be used to see how Earth crops grow in the local soil, without risking any species escaping and 'going native'. And to test grow any promising local species. Note; Even a Corporate run colony world would probably want to work this way, as contaminating the local environment risks destroying species that might actually have commercial uses. Not very helpful to discover that a local species of plant makes for a revolutionary medicine after your imported crops have wiped them out. yeah, it is a simple question leading into a complex topic. Interesting topic to talk about, but it's not going to happen in my lifetime, and probably not my kid's or grandkid's either.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 30, 2017 8:01:42 GMT
And this is why the typical astronaut has to be science background in something to work as part of a team with complimentary science skills. Your going to need a chemist....
Do we need to take our own soil with us, or do we just rely on hydroponics. You also need a geologist. Will the soil on a foreign planet be suitable to use?. Will introduction of earth crop be harmful to delicate eco systems of other worlds. You also need someone with good transport logistics ability. Will carrying "All that lot" that is possibly needed to grow crops to support a six moth mission be a lot more hassle weight and size considerations when all you need for a dehydrated replacement would be half the size half the weight and a lot less hassle. You also need an astrophysicist... If your thinking dehydrated, where is the water coming from?. You SURE that planet has water?.. and again, is it "viable" to be used, even through filtration, for human consumption?. Back to the logistics guy, how much weight is six months water when compared to the equipment needed to recycle human waster and treating it to make it just plan water again?, and even in that, get the other science guy, how much loss do you expect in a sealed system that does recycling anyway, as human waste is never 100$ recyclable.
May I remind you all, the Mars project is under way. "Not in my lifetime", well, lets just ask those people who were around 10 yrs before that American President said "Not because its easy but because its hard" and challenged his country to get a man to the moon?. Did they say 10 yrs beforehand that Man on a different planet was impossible... Did they predict man on the moon as "Not in my lifetime"
I say this, Mars will happen. If I say "Not in my lifetime", then I am predicting a very short life expectancy?. I predict it will happen this century, and as I have a good 50 yrs expectancy left on my own life, presuming medical science evolves further to extend it say another 10% from what I originality thought. And in the world of the NASA JPL, I do not in any way doubt that there will be a forthcoming visit to Mars with full expectancy of "Getting there" in the near future for Humans.
In MY lifetime.
Definitely possible well within 50 yrs.
I give you my personal grantee that this will happen... That is if Kin-Done-Wong dont duck it up for the whole world by announcing he is at war with a penguin?.. And then just fire whatever he got just because kim want big bang?.
So if we continue towards world peace, I guarantee we will get man on the Mars. And if it dont happen in 50 yrs, I will probably be dead of old age anyway, so why am I worried?. I will be well over 100 in 50 yrs, so thats about fine for me.
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 30, 2017 9:50:06 GMT
Do we need to take our own soil with us, or do we just rely on hydroponics. You also need a geologist. Will the soil on a foreign planet be suitable to use?. And that is a huge question that needs to be answered! Earth plants have evolved in Earth soil with Earth bacteria and certain amounts of nutrients. Tweak the amounts of nitrates, potassium, salts, iron and other metals just the tiniest bit and you won't get the desired outcome. And let's face it, the chances of another planet having the exact same levels of everything in the soil as Earth does aren't even within spitting distance of slim to none, so you're really down to one of two options (or a combination of both): 1. As Cyber says, bring your own and use hydroponics to grow what you need. 2. Analyze the soil and genetically engineer your crops to be able to grow in it. The problem with option 2 is that even if you can engineer the plants to be able to survive and even thrive in the native environment, you might also have to engineer the people who are going to be eating them. Too much or too little of anything in the soil could alter the plants to a point where they're no longer fit for human consumption, making them worthless to our survival. I predict that our only real chance to get out between the stars will be altering our own biology to become the aliens we're looking for. If two completely different species can evolve from a common historical ancestor just by dividing up a colony over multiple continents here on Earth, it's not unreasonable to think humanity will branch out into different species over time, as we divide our colony up over multiple planets.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 30, 2017 15:50:54 GMT
If we spend enough time in space, we will be space aliens, and unable to return to earth. Micro-gravity has an effect on Bone structure. It starts to leach out the calcium. [and other trace nutrients...] Even if they exercise, the bone density alters over time. Therefore, a trip of a couple of years to Mars, and a couple of years back, even if in hibernation, there may be a sort of decompression chamber style low earth orbit low gravity isolation need to rehabilitate any space traveller, unless they can find a way to spin the craft to create a gravity inducing craft for long range space travel.
Doesn't matter what diet you have, in low micro gravity, the bones alter density over time.
There is now the suggestion for a long-line tether to a geo-stationary orbital craft to allow a space lift to take care of this. Its just will earth bound storms break that tether?. How DO you rehabilitate a low bone density astronaut after say 5 yrs [or longer] on low or zero gravity.
There is suggestion that after "A certain time" being say 10 yrs for a healthy 30 yr old, there is a period of no return for someone who looses that density. This is why they talk of Mars exploration as a possible 1 way trip... the problems of getting them back are small to what happens to them when they do get back. Some may be unable to walk for years, if at all?. Can they 3-d print new skeleton parts?.. yes that is plausible, but what of organ and implant rejection possibilities?.
Yeah, I know, many subjects micro-mentioned in that, but there is a lot of research to try and include in a "shorter" post.. I am trying not to waffle on for pages like I usually do... is it working?.
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 30, 2017 22:29:23 GMT
Do we need to take our own soil with us, or do we just rely on hydroponics. You also need a geologist. Will the soil on a foreign planet be suitable to use?. And that is a huge question that needs to be answered! Earth plants have evolved in Earth soil with Earth bacteria and certain amounts of nutrients. Tweak the amounts of nitrates, potassium, salts, iron and other metals just the tiniest bit and you won't get the desired outcome. And let's face it, the chances of another planet having the exact same levels of everything in the soil as Earth does aren't even within spitting distance of slim to none, so you're really down to one of two options (or a combination of both): 1. As Cyber says, bring your own and use hydroponics to grow what you need. 2. Analyze the soil and genetically engineer your crops to be able to grow in it. The problem with option 2 is that even if you can engineer the plants to be able to survive and even thrive in the native environment, you might also have to engineer the people who are going to be eating them. Too much or too little of anything in the soil could alter the plants to a point where they're no longer fit for human consumption, making them worthless to our survival. I predict that our only real chance to get out between the stars will be altering our own biology to become the aliens we're looking for. If two completely different species can evolve from a common historical ancestor just by dividing up a colony over multiple continents here on Earth, it's not unreasonable to think humanity will branch out into different species over time, as we divide our colony up over multiple planets. Earth soil varies considerably in regards the types and levels of nutrients depending on where you are, and most places have plants of some kind. That doesn't mean that there would be something that could grow in those conditions that is suitable as a crop food of course. Of course the easiest 'crop' to grow would actually be algae, since the only thing you would really need locally would be water. Which is at least easier to filter and sterilize than native soils. It's also one of the few things even a fairly basic orbital survey will be able to confirm is available. Algae is ideal, as you can use it to filter the waste from the crew and create oxygen as a byproduct.
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Post by ironhold on Oct 1, 2017 0:25:41 GMT
If we spend enough time in space, we will be space aliens, and unable to return to earth. Micro-gravity has an effect on Bone structure. It starts to leach out the calcium. [and other trace nutrients...] Even if they exercise, the bone density alters over time. Therefore, a trip of a couple of years to Mars, and a couple of years back, even if in hibernation, there may be a sort of decompression chamber style low earth orbit low gravity isolation need to rehabilitate any space traveller, unless they can find a way to spin the craft to create a gravity inducing craft for long range space travel. Doesn't matter what diet you have, in low micro gravity, the bones alter density over time. About a decade or so back, there was an anime made in support of the "Zone of the Enders" video game franchise; the series was "Zone of the Enders: Dolores, I", and the action centered around the prototype "Dolores" tactical AI. One of the characters, former combat robot pilot James Links, finds himself having a showdown with a mafia type that's been harassing one of his favorite "working girls". Links is all set to beat the guy senseless when he realizes that the guy was born on Mars. Turns out that the government which covers the Milky Way decided that since Mars had lower gravity than Earth, people who grew up on Mars wouldn't be quite as sturdy as people who grew up on Earth and so the "use of force" laws were modified to take this into consideration. This means that people from Earth are under a stricter level of scrutiny when it comes to physical exchanges with people from Mars, as it's believed that someone from Earth could do more damage than normal. Given this, Links decides to just rough the guy up and send him on his way. Unfortunately for him, the guy is well aware of these laws, and so figured Links would indeed go easy on him. The guy had in fact made it a point to hit the gym as often as possible to compensate for the reduced gravity, and so could easily go toe-to-toe with someone from Earth. Thus, he wasn't holding back and so Links ended up on the floor.
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 1, 2017 1:15:51 GMT
Seeing how we've been analyzing Martian soil for a number of years now and have found no life whatsoever, I'd think that the only thing Martian soil would be good for is a place holder for nutrients that the colonists would have to bring with them. Besides no nutrients, Mars has reduced sunlight and no water that we have found so far. Colonists would probably be better off sticking to indoor hydroponics where they could recycle what little water thy would have with them.
And unless we develop FTL space travel, Mars is our only option for any type of colonization.
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