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Post by c64 on Aug 24, 2017 20:03:34 GMT
Here is something really cool for anyone who owns a CRT oscilloscope. It also works with fully digital ones but real phosphor looks much more awesome. You can also download videos made with a real CRT scope which also looks a lot better than watched on a digital scope. 57559455.swh.strato-hosting.eu/index.phpIt really works although you need a very good sound card capable to play 192kHz sampling frequencies. Any scope works, even real cheap 10MHz ones. If you don't own a decent sound card, a standard one will do to proof that it really works and the music really contains vector graphic videos. With my Thinkpad, the image is very stable and free off glitches but looks very blurry. Also the picture is upside down but this can be corrected by inverting the Y-Axis on the scope. Sadly, any sound card that works 100% perfect is in the $100 range. But there exist inexpensive ($7..$20) USB headset converters capable to play 192kHz samples which work really well. The problem with those is a high DC-offset so the picture has to be small to stay on the screen. They put out half of the supply voltage as "zero" and lower the voltage to simulate negative voltages. You can fix the problem by simply connecting button batteries (1.5V or 3V) in series to the signal for the scope to subtract their voltage from the massive DC offset of the USB headphone converter. Then you can adjust the gain much further to obtain a full screen video centered on the screen.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 25, 2017 2:28:25 GMT
Here is something really cool for anyone who owns a CRT oscilloscope. It also works with fully digital ones but real phosphor looks much more awesome. You can also download videos made with a real CRT scope which also looks a lot better than watched on a digital scope. 57559455.swh.strato-hosting.eu/index.phpIt really works although you need a very good sound card capable to play 192kHz sampling frequencies. Any scope works, even real cheap 10MHz ones. If you don't own a decent sound card, a standard one will do to proof that it really works and the music really contains vector graphic videos. With my Thinkpad, the image is very stable and free off glitches but looks very blurry. Also the picture is upside down but this can be corrected by inverting the Y-Axis on the scope. Sadly, any sound card that works 100% perfect is in the $100 range. But there exist inexpensive ($7..$20) USB headset converters capable to play 192kHz samples which work really well. The problem with those is a high DC-offset so the picture has to be small to stay on the screen. They put out half of the supply voltage as "zero" and lower the voltage to simulate negative voltages. You can fix the problem by simply connecting button batteries (1.5V or 3V) in series to the signal for the scope to subtract their voltage from the massive DC offset of the USB headphone converter. Then you can adjust the gain much further to obtain a full screen video centered on the screen. I have a Tek 410A digital scope and a small SC-504 60mHz analog. I don't know how good the sound card is in my lab computer, but I have a Mark of the Unicorn 8 channel audio interface in my wife's studio computer that should do the trick. I'll be sure to check it out. If the cheap headphone converters have a DC offset, can't you just set the scope for AC coupling?
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Post by ironhold on Aug 25, 2017 2:35:49 GMT
Posted something on this a few months ago.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 25, 2017 3:15:39 GMT
Posted something on this a few months ago. It's one thing to watch a Youtube video of it. It's entirely different to watch it on your own oscilloscope.
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Post by c64 on Aug 25, 2017 17:35:17 GMT
I don't know how good the sound card is in my lab computer, but I have a Mark of the Unicorn 8 channel audio interface in my wife's studio computer that should do the trick. I'll be sure to check it out. If the cheap headphone converters have a DC offset, can't you just set the scope for AC coupling? "Mark of the Unicorn" is 24bit/48kHz, the professional standard. Until recently, 16/bit 44.1kHz (CD) was "normal" and 48kHz was really great. The 192kHz is pure nonsense. While you see clear differences on the scope, there is no way to hear any difference. The reason for this "standard" is that some people think that normal digital is not good enough (because the vinyl people said so) and so they came up with the 192kHz nonsense. The 192kHz "nonsense" has no AC coupling so you can "play" DC as long as you want. While nonsense for audio, it is neat for electronic purposes where you want to control voltages just as you like. The reason for the DC coupling is that the 192kHz "standard" is nothing but a plain D/A converter. Now they make chips which can "decode" 192kHz audio for less than $4. You can buy an "Audiophile shield" (SPI to analog) for the Raspberry Pi which is based on this chip ($15). I am going to order one. You need DC since drawing a straight line requires that the X or Y component must stay on the same voltage for a moment. Whit AC coupling, the beam can't stop in X or Y direction, it must always move in both axis. With AC coupling, the picture will shift up/dn and left/right all the time. The scope puts the center of the drawing into the center of the tube so all objects must be in the middle - and they are distorted. But you'll see when you try it at home anyway. So play with everything what you have and buy a Raspberry soundcard or buy a 192kHz capable headphone adapter and learn how to compensate the DC offset. What is really interesting is that most Tracks sound like " Dresden '45" on my homemade 1kW class D amp system. I never anticipated to plug in something which doesn't feed 15Hz..20kHz with true AC only when I had designed it.
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Post by c64 on Aug 25, 2017 17:36:53 GMT
Posted something on this a few months ago. "Planet" is one of the tracks you get for your €5.
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Post by c64 on Aug 25, 2017 17:38:44 GMT
Posted something on this a few months ago. It's one thing to watch a Youtube video of it. It's entirely different to watch it on your own oscilloscope. The difference is like going into a cinema vs streaming the movie onto your cell phone...
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 25, 2017 18:54:00 GMT
I don't know how good the sound card is in my lab computer, but I have a Mark of the Unicorn 8 channel audio interface in my wife's studio computer that should do the trick. I'll be sure to check it out. If the cheap headphone converters have a DC offset, can't you just set the scope for AC coupling? "Mark of the Unicorn" is 24bit/48kHz, the professional standard. Until recently, 16/bit 44.1kHz (CD) was "normal" and 48kHz was really great. The 192kHz is pure nonsense. While you see clear differences on the scope, there is no way to hear any difference. The reason for this "standard" is that some people think that normal digital is not good enough (because the vinyl people said so) and so they came up with the 192kHz nonsense. The 192kHz "nonsense" has no AC coupling so you can "play" DC as long as you want. While nonsense for audio, it is neat for electronic purposes where you want to control voltages just as you like. The reason for the DC coupling is that the 192kHz "standard" is nothing but a plain D/A converter. Now they make chips which can "decode" 192kHz audio for less than $4. You can buy an "Audiophile shield" (SPI to analog) for the Raspberry Pi which is based on this chip ($15). I am going to order one. You need DC since drawing a straight line requires that the X or Y component must stay on the same voltage for a moment. Whit AC coupling, the beam can't stop in X or Y direction, it must always move in both axis. With AC coupling, the picture will shift up/dn and left/right all the time. The scope puts the center of the drawing into the center of the tube so all objects must be in the middle - and they are distorted. But you'll see when you try it at home anyway. So play with everything what you have and buy a Raspberry soundcard or buy a 192kHz capable headphone adapter and learn how to compensate the DC offset. What is really interesting is that most Tracks sound like " Dresden '45" on my homemade 1kW class D amp system. I never anticipated to plug in something which doesn't feed 15Hz..20kHz with true AC only when I had designed it. The MOTU unit I have will go to 24bit/96kHz, on eight channels at the same time, although I never tried it there. Everything I've used it for was at 16/44.1 - 8 channel. I guess this will be my chance to try it out.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 26, 2017 7:20:39 GMT
Question... "MIDI", Musical Instrument Digital Interface... Can you make a connection to that and do the same thing?. I just happen to have an old MIDI unit in my loft somewhere.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 26, 2017 7:23:08 GMT
Now that was fascinating?..
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 26, 2017 22:27:43 GMT
Question... "MIDI", Musical Instrument Digital Interface... Can you make a connection to that and do the same thing?. I just happen to have an old MIDI unit in my loft somewhere. No, MIDI is just a string of data bits, like ASCII. It's the instructions that tell a sound synthesizer what analog musical sound to produce.
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Post by GTCGreg on Aug 27, 2017 3:02:40 GMT
With all the ultrasonic frequencies in the audio program material, I would be afraid to play this on a decent sound system for fear of burning out the tweeters.
It may be wise to run the full bandwidth audio to the scope but pass the speaker audio through a low pass filter first.
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Post by silverdragon on Aug 27, 2017 7:37:49 GMT
Greg, check your own "Book of words" on your sound system as to what it can reproduce. I know for fact that my own can and will produce ultra-sonic sound that Bats can hear. We did an experiment of bats....
Yeah, That Dragon has bats in his belfry.
One night we had an absolute flurry of insect movements above the pond. We get one bat, then suddenly two, half a dozen, sod that a full squadron of them...
Could it be that the can "Hear" over a distance other bats sonar pings on prey?.
We get an ultra sensitive Mic, and the next night, set it up to record. Of course, me being the thinking one, I set it up "In the way", so the bats have to "sonar around it", thus I am getting directed sonar pings at the mic...
No bats.
THREE NIGHTS LATER, we eventually get bats.
We had the recordings, and one "tampered with", as in lowered to audible levels, we have the audio we can all hear.
So proof of concept....
Next night, we wait and wait, and when we are sure no bats, with the speakers up on the shed roof, we broadcast the recordings.
within 10 mins we have a flurry of bat....
BTW, is this possibly a myth that the MB's can test?. What do you think, worth posting?
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Post by c64 on Sept 8, 2017 10:16:50 GMT
Question... "MIDI", Musical Instrument Digital Interface... Can you make a connection to that and do the same thing?. I just happen to have an old MIDI unit in my loft somewhere. It doesn't even really work with MP3. The music directly controls the position of the glowing dot on the screen. As soon as you introduces "losses", the position of the dot isn't accurate any more so the picture is drawn wrong. Losses are either caused by compression based on losses (MP3) by leaving out signal components you can't hear anyway or leaving out samples when your sound card can't play the samples fast enough. This is based on 192kHz sampling frequencies, common hardware can only play "CD quality" which is 44.1kHz or "studio quality" which is 48kHz. Also common sound gear can't reproduce DC components since audio is pure AC, DC can't be heard at all. You need DC to draw straight horizontal or vertical lines. The 192kHz standard is nothing but a bare digital-to-analogue converter which is rather fast for audio. It is lacking filters to eliminate DC since they are not necessary because the signal is fine enough to play audio without any distortions you could hear. The CD standard is not capable to do that. The audio signal is sampled in 16 bits, 65536 different voltages levels. Even changing between single steps causes a significant "step", a jump in the voltage which appears as a high pitched click. Analogue filters eliminate anything above 20kHz. In reality since good analogue filters are expensive, a common CD player usually starts to suppress above 16kHz. Since a CD SHOULD be able to reproduce 20kHz since 44.1kHz sampling frequency gives you 22.05kHz in theory, either the CD player includes very expensive analogue filters (about $200 extra in the early days, nowadays still $20 extra!) or must use another way to solve the problem. The first inexpensive players capable to reproduce up to 20kHz (and more) were the "1-bit DAC" ones. They recalculated the audio data to create 1-bit samples but with 1MHz frequency. The output of the DAC (Digital to Analogue Converter) is either "on" or "off", a simple, inexpensive circuit. By clicking it on and off so rapidly (up to 1MHz), the immense noise caused by this method is far over the spectrum you can hear, several hundred kHz at least! This reduces the costs of the DAC itself which is just a simple electronic switch and the analogue filter circuits which is basically nothing more than a capacitor and a resistor or two. The analogue part of the player is as inexpensive as it can be but it requires a rather powerful processor. Nowadays such a processor is less than 10 cents. Nowadays, CD/DVD players for audiophile people are 192kHz. They recalculate the data as well, but use 32-bit resolution and 192kHz sampling frequency. The reason is that a >10-MHz DAC has become real cheap since used inside a lot of stuff like printers, digital cameras, cell phones, telephone circuits, TVs and many other things. Also processing power has become real cheap, too. What was a "state of the art" PC about 15 years ago now fits into a 5 cent chip! So this is where this 192kHz "nonsense" audio standard comes from. Originally just a way to reproduce a CD with the best quality possible but on very inexpensive hardware. This was then adopted to sound cards capable to play (and record) 192kHz data directly. It doesn't really make any sense since most people don't use CDs any more and play MP3s. So if you have a very good stereo system and want the maximum quality, theny buy a 192kHz audio CD/DVD player and buy music DVDs to feed it. It makes no sense with a sound card or USB-headphone converter at all - unless you play music for oscilloscopes... And here is what MIDI is: MIDI is 1980s technology, absolutely incapable to convey any form of useful sound at all! The data rate is 31250 k/bit which would translate to mono, 2kHz maximum. Not even enough for simple speech. Even with MP3 compression, the best you can do is to use it as a lousy Dictaphone or maybe an answering machine if you don't mind that you can't really recognize the owner of the voices. MIDI is basically like a sheet of notes. It is music, but not a recording of actual music at all. It is a set of instructions how to play the music on (digital) instruments. A MIDI keyboard for example will report which key you press, (how hard) and how long. To hear something, a MIDI module is required which they plays the actual tunes controlled by the data from the keyboard. Most MIDI keyboards have the module (and speakers) built in so you can play music on them directly. But you can also plug in a better module or record the data on a MIDI sequencer. A sequencer can record and play back which keys you press on a keyboard or play MIDI "music sheets" made by someone else or typed from actual music sheets. Some MIDI keyboards include a sequencer. But any computer with a MIDI interface can also be a sequencer. MIDI in computer sound cards is actually just a MIDI module with the PC acting as the sequencer. Early computer games used MIDI since there was not enough memory available to play recorded music and sounds. E.g. DOOM or DUKE3D played their in game music as MIDI and the F/X (gunshots) were tiny sound samples. If you have a good MIDI module, you can still use it. There are USB to MIDI converters out there which will work with any modern OS. Using the DOSBOX emulator, you can hook your MIDI module (or keyboard with built in module) to your computer and enjoy old DOS games with really good music quality. The quality of the Soundblaster cards was not good at all. There is a HUGE difference in sound quality and complexity. A lot of games could play much more instruments when hooked to a "general MIDI" or "Roland MT-32 compatible" sound module than when played on an ordinary sound card (Adlib or Soundblaster). Even modern sound cards which can't play any MIDI and use software emulation are very low quality compared to using a real MIDI module. So if you own a MIDI module (or keyboard), use an USB converter and set the DOSBOX emulator to "general MIDI", then select "Roland MT32" or "general MIDI" in the settings of the DOS Game. If you own the classic MT-32, it will also display some texts on its display when playing Sierra Games.
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Post by c64 on Sept 8, 2017 11:34:24 GMT
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 8, 2017 15:33:49 GMT
Many newer MIDI devices don't even have the 5-pin MIDI connector on them anymore. My wife recently got a ROLI MIDI controller keyboard. It has a USB connection on it but no MIDI connectors at all. It still outputs the MIDI standard data but over USB. A problem using USB for MIDI is that it doesn't provide ground isolation. The MIDI hardware specification calls for optical isolation between MIDI devices. When we would connect my wife's digital piano to the computer running the DAW software, you could hear all kinds of digital noise coming out the analog audio output of the piano. They sell USB optical isolators where even the 5 volt USB power output is isolated. One of those completely cleaned up our noise problem.
Interesting that you mention the Roland MT-32. That was the first MIDI synthesizer module that we owned. We got it in the late 80's for around $500. We still have it and sometimes actually use it as there are a couple of instrument voices on it that my wife really likes. The one we have is the older version without the headphone jack.
The ROLI keyboard is rather unique. Not only can you play between the keys, but if you slide your finger up and down a key, it will change the MIDI continues controller data that you assign to that MIDI channel. It opens up a whole new world of possibilities for a keyboard player. ROLI also has some rather unique ways of getting around the MIDI specification limitations, like being able to pitch bend just one note while holding others steady.
SD will love this. ROLI keyboard simulating an electric guitar sound.
And it can do a lot more than simulating just guitar. Where you press a key and how hard you press it can determine what sound you get. Here they have the lower part of the keys sounding string voices and the upper part of the keys, brass. Listen to what happens when he slides his fingers up the keys.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 9, 2017 13:10:48 GMT
"How it works", and I have ultimate respect for this guy, he is "Beyond" anything I ever knew and soooo much more?.
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Post by silverdragon on Sept 9, 2017 13:23:21 GMT
"I may have to get me one of them"..... aww "duck", I was soo looking towards being able to buy a new powersaw as well?..
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Post by GTCGreg on Sept 9, 2017 14:53:28 GMT
"I may have to get me one of them"..... aww "duck", I was soo looking towards being able to buy a new powersaw as well?.. A few things you should know before you run out and buy one. First, they are not cheap. ROLI does make a 25 key model for about $300, but to do anything serious, you need more than two octaves. The one we got is the Rise 49. It has 4 octaves but we paid $1000 for it and that was after a fair amount of shopping around. Then there is the learning curve. The ROLI is not a conventional keyboard with keys that go up and down. It's a touch sensitive pad with raised bumps for the keys. You can play notes between the keys but they will be off-pitch. You have to hit a key dead on to be on pitch. The amount of "off pitchness" is adjustable so if you turn it all the way down, it will only play on-pitch notes but you lose the ability to apply vibrato by wiggling your fingers. My wife is a vary accomplished keyboard player but it took her some time to get use to playing on this thing. There is also the other dimensions that it has. Via MIDI CC channels (continuous controller) you can control the way a voice sounds by where you hit vertically on a key or by sliding your fingers up and down the key. Then there is the slide ribbons above and below the keys. Unlike a typical MIDI pitch bend wheel which will slides all notes being played at the same rate, the slider ribbons on the ROLI can be applied to just one note, or all the notes. This is rather unique to MIDI as the MIDI spec has no provision for this. The ROLI has a cleaver way of getting around this but it takes using multiple MIDI channels per voice and that creates some other problems. My wife's been trying to find a way of simulating a pedal steel guitar on the keyboard. With the ROLI, she can do it perfectly. She said that to her, just that alone was worth the price. Also keep in mind that the ROLI keyboard is not capable of producing any sound at all on it's own. It only sends MIDI data. You still need a synthesizer module or a soft-synth program to produce the audio. To take full advantage of the keyboards features, you almost have to use a software based synthesizer. Since the ROLI sends each note on it's own MIDI channel, this eats up computer processor power like a whale swimming through a school of shrimp. You really need a vary powerful computer to get full benefit of the ROLI's capabilities. Fortunately, my wife's studio computer is capable of handling it. It's not for everyone. You may be better off getting that new saw.
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Post by c64 on Sept 11, 2017 15:20:08 GMT
I have looked into "modern MIDI" for the last few days (Apart from working on the Citroen DS disaster). There is a new MIDI connection standard, USB. But it is more than your standard USB! It is not a simple converter like you can buy to plug your classic MIDI into your PC at all. When plugged into a PC, 3 MIDI ports appear in the computer. Two of them are compatible to your classic MIDI IN and OUT plug but have some more features. You can send and receive your classic MIDI data over them. The major difference apart from extra functionality is that there is no fixed speed. Classic MIDI is 32µs per bit while the USB version is not restricted in speed at all. It can run with the maximum speed USB allows. This eliminates the problem of delays when sending a lot of data out of a sudden. From the point of view of your old software, it is just your plain old DIN-plugged MIDI. But there is more, the third interface is for exchanging data between your keyboard and your Software running on your PC. You can control Cubase or any other modern MIDI software over the buttons on your keyboard. You don't need to get your hands off the instrument keyboard to use the mouse and or PC keyboard any more. And the USB MIDI interface is not restricted to be plugged into a PC. There are MIDI modules with an USB-HOST connector. This way you can plug your keyboard into a sequencer or sound module like you would do with the DIN style plugs. I am tempting to buy a €53 "General MIDI" module and a Yamaha KX49 keyboard for my nice. This module is equipped with a headphones jack, a classic MIDI jack, the USB-HOST jack and has a built in battery. When plugging in the Yamaha keyboard using USB, the thing not only makes the actual music you can listen anywhere using headphones, it also serves as power source for the keyboard itself. This is as perfect to learn the piano as it can be. You don't need to worry what others might think of your practice (headphones) and you can carry everything around easily so you can take it with you for your piano lessons. A good 49 keys MIDI keyboard (with USB MIDI) can be bought for less than €300 on eBay. I hope that the one I try to get is for less than €100 when the auction is over. 49 keys is "just right" for beginners and amateurs. Since you can usually assign different parts of the keyboard to different instrument-IDs, you can also split the keyboard to play lower and higher octaves at the same time. A true pro needs at least 88 keys, but the price difference is just insane. You can buy at least three 49 keyboards and stack them for the same price!
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