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Post by silverdragon on Oct 20, 2017 6:32:54 GMT
You cant get fire from ice.
And why not?.
We may need to question what Ice is here, and the final definition of that, but..
From what I can see on the interwebs, its frozen water, or, importantly, something that resembles it.
So if not water, what?.
Well, here, I may have a suggestion, but you may need some chemists around to get this far?.
The components of water are, Hydrogen 2 parts to 1 of Oxygen.
Which are usually a gas.
But, taking the four states of matter, Plasma, gas, liquid, solid.... if you supercool the gas mix, it will be solid, and therefore, not only just resemble ice, but be made of frozen de-constructed Water.
Now all you need is an ignition source?.
Where does this come from?.
A Conversation from my son on Cognitive Dissonance. The ability to hold two or more conflicting beliefs.
Hell we do that here before breakfast?.
He is now trying to animate the idea of Fire from Ice, because he says my idea is "Cheating", that if you super-cool gas enough to get a solid, and then set fire to it, you can indeed get fire from ice...
It works enough for him to use.
However, he disbelieves we have the technology available to super-cool Oxygen and Hydrogen gas to a solid...
Outside maybe Nasa.
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 20, 2017 7:17:57 GMT
You cant get fire from ice. And why not?. We may need to question what Ice is here, and the final definition of that, but.. From what I can see on the interwebs, its frozen water, or, importantly, something that resembles it. So if not water, what?. Well, here, I may have a suggestion, but you may need some chemists around to get this far?. The components of water are, Hydrogen 2 parts to 1 of Oxygen. Which are usually a gas. But, taking the four states of matter, Plasma, gas, liquid, solid.... if you supercool the gas mix, it will be solid, and therefore, not only just resemble ice, but be made of frozen de-constructed Water. Now all you need is an ignition source?. Where does this come from?. A Conversation from my son on Cognitive Dissonance. The ability to hold two or more conflicting beliefs. Hell we do that here before breakfast?. He is now trying to animate the idea of Fire from Ice, because he says my idea is "Cheating", that if you super-cool gas enough to get a solid, and then set fire to it, you can indeed get fire from ice... It works enough for him to use. However, he disbelieves we have the technology available to super-cool Oxygen and Hydrogen gas to a solid... Outside maybe Nasa. When you combine Hydrogen and Oxygen together and burn them, the results is heat and water. the H and O make the water, not the other way around. Think of water as the ash that is left over from the combustion process. Now you can separate the H and O from the water again, but it takes energy to break them apart. The usual way of doing that is through electrolysis. Once they are separated, you can repeat the process by combining them by burning again and you're back to the water. The heat that you get when you burn them is the energy that you put into the equation when you separated them out. You can keep repeating this process as long as you keep putting the energy back in when you break them apart from the water. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 20, 2017 10:05:19 GMT
Greg, I am talking about separating the water to Gas, Oxygen and Hydrogen, by electrolysis if needs, combining the two to a mixed gas, and then super-cooling that gas mix to a solid state.
Once frozen, add an ignition source, and it should self combust and feed its self.
It has the fuel, oxygen, and heat.....
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 20, 2017 14:20:23 GMT
Greg, I am talking about separating the water to Gas, Oxygen and Hydrogen, by electrolysis if needs, combining the two to a mixed gas, and then super-cooling that gas mix to a solid state. Once frozen, add an ignition source, and it should self combust and feed its self. It has the fuel, oxygen, and heat..... The gases will go through their liquid state before becoming solid and mixing LOX with Hydrogen is hypergolic. You don't need an ignition source. It's going to blow before you get a chance to freeze it. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 20, 2017 14:27:19 GMT
running with the theme, you would have to freeze the gases separately, and then put the ends together. the question then would be whether they would warm up enough to go bang on their own or would need a heat source. I guess the question would be what temperature they would go bang AT.
this would assume starting from solid, not under pressure, the gases mixing as the rods sublimated.
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 20, 2017 15:19:16 GMT
running with the theme, you would have to freeze the gases separately, and then put the ends together. the question then would be whether they would warm up enough to go bang on their own or would need a heat source. I guess the question would be what temperature they would go bang AT. this would assume starting from solid, not under pressure, the gases mixing as the rods sublimated. This is pretty basic high school level chemistry. It's a little confusing (or maybe a lot confusing) exactly what SD is talking about here. If you take water and break apart the H and O, you end up with a gas (called Browns gas) that is flammable by adding an ignition source. Freezing this gas mixture isn't going to give you ice, which he seems to assume it will. Funny how it works, but when you chemically combine two or more elements, you end up with something that has the characteristics of neither. Take carbon and oxygen for example. You can take these exact two elements and combine them one way and you get carbon dioxide (CO 2)and another way and you get carbon monoxide (C0). One a deadly poison and the other used to put the fizz in soda pop. And neither one has the characteristics of either carbon or oxygen. Oxygen and Hydrogen is the same. Combine them one way and you get a flammable gas. Combine them another and you get water. Ice, which is defined as frozen water, isn't going to burn no matter how you make it. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 20, 2017 15:33:15 GMT
running with the theme, you would have to freeze the gases separately, and then put the ends together. the question then would be whether they would warm up enough to go bang on their own or would need a heat source. I guess the question would be what temperature they would go bang AT. this would assume starting from solid, not under pressure, the gases mixing as the rods sublimated. This is pretty basic high school level chemistry. It's a little confusing (or maybe a lot confusing) exactly what SD is talking about here. If you take water and break apart the H and O, you end up with a gas (called Browns gas) that is flammable by adding an ignition source. Freezing this gas mixture isn't going to give you ice, which he seems to assume it will. Funny how it works, but when you chemically combine two or more elements, you end up with something that has the characteristics of neither. Take carbon and oxygen for example. You can take these exact two elements and combine them one way and you get carbon dioxide (CO 2)and another way and you get carbon monoxide (C0). One a deadly poison and the other used to put the fizz in soda pop. And neither one has the characteristics of either carbon or oxygen. Oxygen and Hydrogen is the same. Combine them one way and you get a flammable gas. Combine them another and you get water. Ice, which is defined as frozen water, isn't going to burn no matter how you make it. actually, carbon monoxide "poisoning" is not a toxic effect, it is an oxygen displacement effect. it binds to hemoglobin like oxygen, but does not release into your cells like oxygen. as a result, the cells suffocate. - it also does not release in your lungs as readily as carbon dioxide; so it is more difficult to clear from your blood. the immediate treatment is high flow oxygen, and the hospital treatment is often hyperbaric oxygen - to compensate for the clogged hemoglobin - eventually, the CO will be purged. what silver is talking about is manipulating the rules by calling any frozen medium ice. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 20, 2017 16:38:23 GMT
what silver is talking about is manipulating the rules by calling any frozen medium ice. Then he should have titled the thread, fire from a frozen medium. He's pretty clear he is talking about water ice here. He just seems to think that he can make that ice in a manner that will change its properties so it will burn. He may be able to create a solid substance that will burn, but it won't be ice as the rest of the world defines ice. If we are going to redefine terms, why don't we just call gasoline water and be done with it? |
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Post by the light works on Oct 20, 2017 16:50:13 GMT
what silver is talking about is manipulating the rules by calling any frozen medium ice. Then he should have titled the thread, fire from a frozen medium. He's pretty clear he is talking about water ice here. He just seems to think that he can make that ice in a manner that will change its properties so it will burn. He may be able to create a solid substance that will burn, but it won't be ice as the rest of the world defines ice. If we are going to redefine terms, why don't we just call gasoline water and be done with it? for that matter, you can get fire from ice by dropping a lump of phosphorus on it. - or in the magic trick, very carefully embedding a bit of it in a dry candle wick, and then touching it with an ice cube to trigger it. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 20, 2017 16:57:47 GMT
Then he should have titled the thread, fire from a frozen medium. He's pretty clear he is talking about water ice here. He just seems to think that he can make that ice in a manner that will change its properties so it will burn. He may be able to create a solid substance that will burn, but it won't be ice as the rest of the world defines ice. If we are going to redefine terms, why don't we just call gasoline water and be done with it? for that matter, you can get fire from ice by dropping a lump of phosphorus on it. - or in the magic trick, very carefully embedding a bit of it in a dry candle wick, and then touching it with an ice cube to trigger it. In that case, you can also get light from ice or even a moving picture. Just drop a chunk of it on a light switch or your TV remote. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 22, 2017 8:44:35 GMT
The "Myth" presented to me is that... :-"You cant get fire from Ice".
Thats why I used that set of words.
Apparently they are common, as a term meaning "Thats impossible", amongst some yoof of today.... I only repeat what I heard.
hypergolic
Thats a new word for today, and just this once, this IS "Rocket science" then?.
I have often said you learn something new every day, and this is one of them moments.
Not all of us reading this board did either... especially younger viewers who didnt do that yet?.
Greg, back off a little will you?.
Not all of us passed chemistry at high school, I did physics, which isnt chemistry.
I felt like most of us, we are free to ask questions without anyone looking down their nose at us because its simple to them here?.
Well maybe it is to you, but not to me, and me being "Just a truck driver" did not know that freezing a gas would make it go bang just by taking all the heat out of it.
After all, when you are subtracting heat, you just dont expect that to go into reverse all on its own do you?.
So, We now all learn that if you mix a gas that is two parts Hydrogen and one part Oxygen and superchill them to liquid state, what you have is now a combination of liquids that will "Burn" without an ignition source.
I ant so cool that I cant admit this is news to me. It IS news to me. This I did not know.
I do know that LOX in transport is a case of keep it sealed and dont let ANYTHING get at it at all...
But thats all.
Are you cool enough to accept that and move on with the education in this thread in a way that doesnt presume everyone who is reading this has exactly the same knowledge as you?.
No it isnt.
And just to check, I passed it by my late teenagers, and not one of them knew that LOX and Hydrogen in liquid form were "Hypergolic" and not one of them has even heard that term before.
And one of them managed a "pass" in High school chemistry...
Perhaps they studied different course work than you?.
What I know of chemistry is a lot of what is important to me, such as what I needed to know being a Landlord, and ADR dangerous goods in transport, I learn a lot from here, but, I dont know "Everything"... [yet?...]
Chemistry to that level is not compulsory either, just reminding you that two of my Kids are now University students without this knowledge, they did basic chemistry, the same as I did, but not to the level of hypergolic liquids.
As for the definition of ice.
You may recall, if you will, or even bothered to check the first bloody post on the thread, I researched the term before I posted.
Again, for the hard of reading....
I suggest you do your own research on that from the top pages of any internet search engine and see if your results differ.
If they do, I want to know why.
Now before you turn this into a handbag war, of which I want no part of, just to make it clear, this is the last post in which I expect to make any argument of this over, I was asking the question, in the last line of the above quote,
Now if you wish to continue and provide the answers, please go ahead, but remember we aint all rocket scientists, especially the "Lurkers" in the background, that you may have noticed are now including some High School Kids looking for "cool" myths they can do at school, and do try and be a little less condescending in your answers?.
You have a good brain on you, shame to waste it on insulting me just because I dont know "Everything" about chemistry...
Thats a bit of a wasted goal if you ask me, because I niver did say I has du smarts on chemix stuff....
Otherwise I wouldnt have asked about it in this thread.
And I will continue to argue that "Ice" is NOT just frozen water, as the number of dictionaries I looked at before I wrote that first post, did not insist it was only for frozen water.
In fact, many dictionaries state that Ice is any liquid that has frozen to a solid, and stop at that point.
So Frozen solid Gasoline may indeed be termed as "Gasoline Ice" ?.. I fail to see evidence that says it cant?.
Also, if its not common knowledge, even if all of us on here DO know, whats to say everyone else or maybe 90% of "The rest of the world" do NOT know, isnt that what this board is all about?.
Isnt that the reason for life of the whole Mythbusters show?.
Even if we here DO know the answers, its all about how we pass on that knowledge to the rest of the world?.
Getting the presentation style of "You should know this already why do I need to tell you again" isnt going to make any of us a good teacher.
--------------------------------------------------end of argument---------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------back to creating show ideas.... even if we know the answer..------
Back to the ideas.
If you "Freeze" oxygen to a solid.
If you then freeze Hydrogen to a solid.
And them take say a small cube of each, say no more than 1mm cube of each, and put one atop another in a blast pit, will you get...
1} A Small fire as they unfreeze.
2} an explosion
3} neither because they are so cold they need to warm up to liquid first to interact.
....and importantly, how long will number 3 take, and if you can do that, is it good enough for good TV sitting there waiting for "Something" to happen, such as Adam did when putting a vacuum on a oil drum...
And then when it does happen, is that actually getting fire from ice?.. another "Myth" broken?.
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 22, 2017 9:17:43 GMT
While we haven't proven one way or the other if you can get fire from ice, we have proven that you can get fire from a Dragon.  |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 22, 2017 9:21:16 GMT
While we haven't proven one way or the other if you can get fire from ice, we have proven that you can get fire from a Dragon. So I ask again, is this myth worth future discussion or even taking it to the next stage of investigation from the show?. Look, I aint sure at all what the result will be. I accept failure is always an option. I accept that if you cant get fire from ice, thats confirmed, if that be the case, I am happy to let that be. But hell, if you can get a small explosion from it, sure as ducks is ducks, that something worth quacking about?. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 22, 2017 14:26:24 GMT
While we haven't proven one way or the other if you can get fire from ice, we have proven that you can get fire from a Dragon. So I ask again, is this myth worth future discussion or even taking it to the next stage of investigation from the show?. Look, I aint sure at all what the result will be. I accept failure is always an option. I accept that if you cant get fire from ice, thats confirmed, if that be the case, I am happy to let that be. But hell, if you can get a small explosion from it, sure as ducks is ducks, that something worth quacking about?. on the note of having high school sorts lurking around, are there other fuels that can be frozen? da google says pure alcohol freezes at -173, or so. (-114 in metric temperature or 159 in science temperature) so what happens if you put a match to a block of frozen alcohol? does a wick make a difference? what about less than pure alcohol - and will it separate as it freezes? or as it thaws? I could search the freezing points of other fuels, but I think I've said enough to get the principle across. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 23, 2017 8:31:07 GMT
So I ask again, is this myth worth future discussion or even taking it to the next stage of investigation from the show?. Look, I aint sure at all what the result will be. I accept failure is always an option. I accept that if you cant get fire from ice, thats confirmed, if that be the case, I am happy to let that be. But hell, if you can get a small explosion from it, sure as ducks is ducks, that something worth quacking about?. on the note of having high school sorts lurking around, are there other fuels that can be frozen? da google says pure alcohol freezes at -173, or so. (-114 in metric temperature or 159 in science temperature) so what happens if you put a match to a block of frozen alcohol? does a wick make a difference? what about less than pure alcohol - and will it separate as it freezes? or as it thaws? I could search the freezing points of other fuels, but I think I've said enough to get the principle across. Now thats the thinking I wanted to get from this. Good thoughts there, and yeah, trust that to come from a fireman eh?. Can you freeze Petrol?. Can you freeze other liquid fuels. I did think of diesel there, but, well, two things, first it sort of goes into a very thick wallpaper paste that is much good at sticking things to walls because it only gets as far as a thick custard state, its smelly, nasty, invasive, penetrating to anything warm, and takes ages to wash off again, and second, it doesnt burn on its own Am I thinking too much with trying to freeze a gas?. Probably. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 23, 2017 14:20:16 GMT
on the note of having high school sorts lurking around, are there other fuels that can be frozen? da google says pure alcohol freezes at -173, or so. (-114 in metric temperature or 159 in science temperature) so what happens if you put a match to a block of frozen alcohol? does a wick make a difference? what about less than pure alcohol - and will it separate as it freezes? or as it thaws? I could search the freezing points of other fuels, but I think I've said enough to get the principle across. Now thats the thinking I wanted to get from this. Good thoughts there, and yeah, trust that to come from a fireman eh?. Can you freeze Petrol?. Can you freeze other liquid fuels. I did think of diesel there, but, well, two things, first it sort of goes into a very thick wallpaper paste that is much good at sticking things to walls because it only gets as far as a thick custard state, its smelly, nasty, invasive, penetrating to anything warm, and takes ages to wash off again, and second, it doesnt burn on its own Am I thinking too much with trying to freeze a gas?. Probably. you can freeze anything, if you get it cold enough. the question in my mind is what can you get where "cold enough" can be gotten in a school classroom, and you can test burn characteristics. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 23, 2017 16:07:37 GMT
you can freeze anything, if you get it cold enough. the question in my mind is what can you get where "cold enough" can be gotten in a school classroom, and you can test burn characteristics. Typically, Liquid Nitrogen is at -321 degrees Fahrenheit and often used in classrooms for cold temperature experimentation because of it's low cost and it is easily obtainable. Liquid Oxygen is a little colder at -361ºF but is considered more dangerous for classroom use. Liquid Helium is much colder at -452ºF but is very expensive and hard to store. Just for comparison, untreated Diesel fuel starts to freeze around +10ºF and gasoline freezes at -50ºF, so one could use liquid Nitrogen to freeze either fuel for testing. Most Diesel fuel has additives to keep it liquid at lower temperature, but even the treated Diesel will freeze at higher temperatures than gasoline. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 24, 2017 4:21:13 GMT
you can freeze anything, if you get it cold enough. the question in my mind is what can you get where "cold enough" can be gotten in a school classroom, and you can test burn characteristics. Typically, Liquid Nitrogen is at -321 degrees Fahrenheit and often used in classrooms for cold temperature experimentation because of it's low cost and it is easily obtainable. Liquid Oxygen is a little colder at -361ºF but is considered more dangerous for classroom use. Liquid Helium is much colder at -452ºF but is very expensive and hard to store. Just for comparison, untreated Diesel fuel starts to freeze around +10ºF and gasoline freezes at -50ºF, so one could use liquid Nitrogen to freeze either fuel for testing. Most Diesel fuel has additives to keep it liquid at lower temperature, but even the treated Diesel will freeze at higher temperatures than gasoline. diesel fuel would probably not make a good test medium because it is TOO difficult to ignite, but perhaps a lamp oil would work. I think there are liquid paraffin lamp oils. do you know what the freezing point of those would be? |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 24, 2017 8:00:47 GMT
Now thats the thinking I wanted to get from this. Good thoughts there, and yeah, trust that to come from a fireman eh?. Can you freeze Petrol?. Can you freeze other liquid fuels. I did think of diesel there, but, well, two things, first it sort of goes into a very thick wallpaper paste that is much good at sticking things to walls because it only gets as far as a thick custard state, its smelly, nasty, invasive, penetrating to anything warm, and takes ages to wash off again, and second, it doesnt burn on its own Am I thinking too much with trying to freeze a gas?. Probably. you can freeze anything, if you get it cold enough. the question in my mind is what can you get where "cold enough" can be gotten in a school classroom, and you can test burn characteristics. This is my thinking. I cant remember the exacts, but, what temp does Liquid Nitrogen get down to?. And what becomes solid at that temp, and in that, what when solid, "Looks like ice" enough to fill the remit of what is commonly held to be called "ice" with the loose term of what Ice can be?. Of course, Internet is here, I can just look up the temp of Liquid Nitrogen, or even if I wanted, just reach over and find the work bag that has my ADR notes in it, because its probably within 3 or 4 pages of me looking in the right book, but, kids love to discover, let them do that themselves?. Do modern schools have Liquid Nitrogen in the chemix labs these days?. They did have some when I was a kids, but you never know with all this elf-and-safe-tea around these days?. Edit, I see Greg had the figures to hand.
But, Diesel, dont bother...
As already stated, its not a nice thing to work with at any temp, and difficult to ignite, freezing it solid doesnt help either, its still a PITA at less than room temp.
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