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Post by c64 on Mar 9, 2018 13:21:01 GMT
For a fiction series I'm looking at, I was toying with the idea of introducing a chain store named "Tinned Liquors" as a parody of a regional chain of liquor stores. This has me wondering. It's common for beer to be vended in aluminum cans. But how would beer take in "tin" cans (which are largely steel)? Or how would other alcoholic beverages handle being stored in metal containers as opposed to wood, glass, or whatever? In Germany, soda cans are made out of very thin tinplate. Only the bottom and top is often made different. So German beer cans are "beer in a tin". Also you can buy wine and fruit juices in cans over here. Energy drinks use long cans with a smaller diameter so there was a huge problem with wine cans the same shape. They usually sat right next to energy drinks in fuel stations. Now wine in (tin) cans is banned. ANd since pure industrial alcohol and paint thinner comes in big tin cans already, there should be no problems to do it with any kind of consumable alcohol. The only problem is that people may confuse them or shady people relabel them to make profit.
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Post by kharnynb on Mar 21, 2018 18:45:52 GMT
there's only 2 beers that should be cloudy, german wheatbeers and some stout/porters(the ones you can chew).
As for canning beer, some beer is better bottled, especially big belgian beers or beers that need cellaring, while others are better hidden inside a metal can where the sun can't get at em, especially high hop ones.
here we have some plastic bottled beers as well, especially popular for festival season.
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Post by the light works on Mar 22, 2018 3:17:22 GMT
there's only 2 beers that should be cloudy, german wheatbeers and some stout/porters(the ones you can chew). As for canning beer, some beer is better bottled, especially big belgian beers or beers that need cellaring, while others are better hidden inside a metal can where the sun can't get at em, especially high hop ones. here we have some plastic bottled beers as well, especially popular for festival season. here, the plastic bottled beers are most popular with those who choose their beer by cost/alcohol ratio.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 23, 2018 7:04:47 GMT
We aint never seen "Plastic" bottle beers here?... Excerpt some "dodgy" 2ltr size, Cyder, some cheep lagers, and the like, but true beer comes in Glass. Maybe some "Trendy" places may use plastic, but mostly, beer is sold in recyclable glass, or retail from the Keg/Cask. Most German/Scandewiegisn type bottled beers all use the same bottles, that are returned, sanitised, cleaned, new label, and put back into stock, until the glass shows signs of wear, and then they are crushed and put back into the mix to make new bottles. As all breweries use the same bottle, exactly the same one, Green glass same size, they can swap bottles between suppliers "as needed", and for me, thats the ultimate in Recycling?.
Many Micro-breweries do a glass bottle, it helps with the transport of small quantity sales, say for Supermarket shelves, and has a long sell by date on it, because there is a sterile environment inside that bottle.
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Post by the light works on Mar 23, 2018 14:44:37 GMT
We aint never seen "Plastic" bottle beers here?... Excerpt some "dodgy" 2ltr size, Cyder, some cheep lagers, and the like, but true beer comes in Glass. Maybe some "Trendy" places may use plastic, but mostly, beer is sold in recyclable glass, or retail from the Keg/Cask. Most German/Scandewiegisn type bottled beers all use the same bottles, that are returned, sanitised, cleaned, new label, and put back into stock, until the glass shows signs of wear, and then they are crushed and put back into the mix to make new bottles. As all breweries use the same bottle, exactly the same one, Green glass same size, they can swap bottles between suppliers "as needed", and for me, thats the ultimate in Recycling?. Many Micro-breweries do a glass bottle, it helps with the transport of small quantity sales, say for Supermarket shelves, and has a long sell by date on it, because there is a sterile environment inside that bottle. here, unless you are buying it "bring your own bottle" AKA growlers, all bottles get smashed and recast, nowadays. we are long past the age where the bottlers would sterilize and refill until the bottle was frosted glass instead of clear glass. but our soda bottles weren't exchangeable - the labels were painted on. addendum: and yes, by alcohol/cost ratio, I mean dodgy.
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Post by mrfatso on Mar 23, 2018 20:23:33 GMT
Have seen plastic beer bottles myself, at sports stadiums where they are less dangerous than glass ones.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 24, 2018 9:05:48 GMT
Have seen plastic beer bottles myself, at sports stadiums where they are less dangerous than glass ones. Ah, Yes, now, now you mention it, I didnt think of that one?. Yes there has been a push to make all sports stadiums and public events glass free, and certain breweries have started producing plastic replica's of their glass bottles just for those events.... But not the standard 2ltr "Pop" bottle variety you get say Fanta/Tango/Supermarket own brand in?.. I went to a recent beer festival where they were dispensing real live beer into plastic pint pots. I gave up on modern society when a Brewer's pride of what they produce festival has to have a "Plastic pot" ruling enforced on it?. And they dont like it if you take your own either. 20/30 Yrs ago, you would see Beer festival goers going to the festival with a pewter handle-with-a-pot-on hung from a hook on their belt. Yeah I had my own Mug, as a landlord attending, you were often presented with one, especially if you asked about ordering certain brews, but not hung from my belt, I wasnt ever that "trendy".... [/sarcasm?...]
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Post by the light works on Mar 24, 2018 14:50:18 GMT
Have seen plastic beer bottles myself, at sports stadiums where they are less dangerous than glass ones. Ah, Yes, now, now you mention it, I didnt think of that one?. Yes there has been a push to make all sports stadiums and public events glass free, and certain breweries have started producing plastic replica's of their glass bottles just for those events.... But not the standard 2ltr "Pop" bottle variety you get say Fanta/Tango/Supermarket own brand in?.. I went to a recent beer festival where they were dispensing real live beer into plastic pint pots. I gave up on modern society when a Brewer's pride of what they produce festival has to have a "Plastic pot" ruling enforced on it?. And they dont like it if you take your own either. 20/30 Yrs ago, you would see Beer festival goers going to the festival with a pewter handle-with-a-pot-on hung from a hook on their belt. Yeah I had my own Mug, as a landlord attending, you were often presented with one, especially if you asked about ordering certain brews, but not hung from my belt, I wasnt ever that "trendy".... [/sarcasm?...] our latest for stadiums is a plastic pint glass with a magnet embedded in the (open) bottom. an enameled steel disc rests in it and is clamped tight by the magnet. in use, the glass snaps over a dispenser which pushes up the disc to fill the glass from the bottom with no active participation by the server. then when the glass is lifted off the filler, the disc seals the hole. this, in proper 'murican tradition, means that the least number of the worst trained people can dispense the greatest amount of the dodgiest beer.
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Post by kharnynb on Mar 24, 2018 16:05:09 GMT
wouldn't touch any beer like that. sounds like utterly nasty, on par with "auto filler" systems.
lager should be hand pulled, have about 2-3 cm foam on top and should be topped with a spatula to prevent the foam from forming big bubbles and collapsing.
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Post by the light works on Mar 24, 2018 16:36:02 GMT
wouldn't touch any beer like that. sounds like utterly nasty, on par with "auto filler" systems. lager should be hand pulled, have about 2-3 cm foam on top and should be topped with a spatula to prevent the foam from forming big bubbles and collapsing. technically, it is a pilsner.
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Post by kharnynb on Mar 24, 2018 17:27:55 GMT
pilsner is a style of lager named after the pale lager made in pilsen first.
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Post by the light works on Mar 24, 2018 18:39:11 GMT
pilsner is a style of lager named after the pale lager made in pilsen first. I'd forgotten that detail. probably I've forgotten more than many Americans ever bothered to learn. all they know is that Budweiser is the king of beers, and Miller is the champagne of beers. I probably would have been a halfway decent craft brewer if I'd decided to go that route. got good response from the homebrewing I did. - not bad for a guy who doesn't like alcohol.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 25, 2018 10:06:35 GMT
wouldn't touch any beer like that. sounds like utterly nasty, on par with "auto filler" systems. lager should be hand pulled, have about 2-3 cm foam on top and should be topped with a spatula to prevent the foam from forming big bubbles and collapsing. The Art of the trained bar staff is to poor a beer with a head that fills the gap from the line, the "paint" mark that is the origin of Pint, up to that with liquid, and leave the space above that in the glass with a perfect head, that holds all the way down the glass as you drink it. You Dont need a spatula if you poor it right in the first place.?.. Un-Gassed beer, "Meat and two veg" on a hand pump, the first draw is energetic to form a head, the second two draws on the pump are to fill the glass with beer through that head, it should be no more than an inch of head, in fact three quarters an inch of head is about just right, and the beer should clear gradually, but the head stay, again, as you drink it to the bottom of the glass, presuming you dont spend more than 20 mins drinking one pint. Experience is what is needed, but good bar staff should get that basic experience in the first day of working, and get better the more they do. Bar staff, good bar staff, is 90% customer relations, and the rest is knowing where everything is, supplying the perfect product that pours right and getting the pumps "tuned" and clean to dispense a perfect pint is 100% of what a good landlord or bar manager should be doing. The other 100% of his job is balancing the books. Yeah, you read that right, 200%, never yet met a good landlord that doesnt put in 18hr days and do twice the amount of work he gets paid for to keep the place running right?. Its a job you do as a lifestyle choice, its all done for the love of the job, not the money. Although the money is nice... buys you some toys that does... like a bench saw, and a reach and twist chop saw that has a 3 axis cutting ability. And the occasional chain saw, and car, and keeps the family in what they need as well.
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Post by the light works on Mar 25, 2018 10:34:43 GMT
wouldn't touch any beer like that. sounds like utterly nasty, on par with "auto filler" systems. lager should be hand pulled, have about 2-3 cm foam on top and should be topped with a spatula to prevent the foam from forming big bubbles and collapsing. The Art of the trained bar staff is to poor a beer with a head that fills the gap from the line, the "paint" mark that is the origin of Pint, up to that with liquid, and leave the space above that in the glass with a perfect head, that holds all the way down the glass as you drink it. You Dont need a spatula if you poor it right in the first place.?.. Un-Gassed beer, "Meat and two veg" on a hand pump, the first draw is energetic to form a head, the second two draws on the pump are to fill the glass with beer through that head, it should be no more than an inch of head, in fact three quarters an inch of head is about just right, and the beer should clear gradually, but the head stay, again, as you drink it to the bottom of the glass, presuming you dont spend more than 20 mins drinking one pint. Experience is what is needed, but good bar staff should get that basic experience in the first day of working, and get better the more they do. Bar staff, good bar staff, is 90% customer relations, and the rest is knowing where everything is, supplying the perfect product that pours right and getting the pumps "tuned" and clean to dispense a perfect pint is 100% of what a good landlord or bar manager should be doing. The other 100% of his job is balancing the books. Yeah, you read that right, 200%, never yet met a good landlord that doesnt put in 18hr days and do twice the amount of work he gets paid for to keep the place running right?. Its a job you do as a lifestyle choice, its all done for the love of the job, not the money. Although the money is nice... buys you some toys that does... like a bench saw, and a reach and twist chop saw that has a 3 axis cutting ability. And the occasional chain saw, and car, and keeps the family in what they need as well. It's the variety of the thing that makes brewing interesting to me. it's another branch of cooking. thing is, I like the experimenting and not so much the production. for example, we know bout "nitro taps" over here - force gassing a beer with nitrogen instead of CO2. makes a finer grained fizz and a slightly different bite. so what of a He tap? how would that change the character of the beer? or what malts and hops would one use to make a true "champagne of beers"?
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 25, 2018 10:38:18 GMT
Lager its self is "just" a form of beer, it comes from the Germanic world "lagerbier" of storing and brewing at cold temperature, where the yeast is active at the bottom of the beer and not the top, but basically its the same method as other beers minus heat?. Its the same ingredients, basic ingredients, as other forms of "bitter" and other beers, but the yeast used allows maturation at a low temp, and therefore brewing without heating and storage is easier.
The Cold Brew yeast, the person that invented it, or discovered it rather, translated it into many different languages, all BUT Germanic, legend has it his Wife ran off with a German Milkman, but as he wasnt married at the time, there must have been some reason?. But that strand of yeast "originally" came from a mould that grows on Gourds. From South America, or Africa, cant remember which there, but its also proof that there was a lot of worldwide trade at the time, more than we expected?.
Pilsner, the difference is mainly the heavy use of Hops in a pale-er lagerbier, again just a small variation in basic ingredients, originally from a distinct area, but now just the name for a certain way of brewing, much like Champagne is a Fizzy Wine, but being its from the champagne valley in France, the name is used to donate a wine made "that way" that was made famous by that area. Fizzy wine was nothing new at the time, its just that that area made an awful LOT of it and made it "posh"....
In UK, you hear "Bitter" and "Mild" as donations of different beers, Bitters and hops are the main parts that make it distinct, where Bitters are a Type of hops blended with certain other plant material, burdock root, dandelion, marigold, horehound, where Horehand is a name for a plant that is originally known as Mountain Hops in Germanic, Berghopfen, and they do throw in the occasional heather, and often a lot of other plants that grow locally that are known to be digestible.
Hops are known to be Anti-Bacterial, originally not used in beers, but then they discovered that the addition of Hops allowed the beer to keep for longer without spoiling, and the extra taste became desirable as well.
Me and Homebrew... The term "Session" ale is not just slang for a week beer that you can drink lots of so is good for a long session, but is a term used to denote an easy form of beer that was better than drinking water at the time, and therefore was better for drinking in larger quantities, because a workforce works better when not half-cut.
I made a few...
But then went on to making special brews of exotic recipes I had found that were "Of historical importance". Erm.. Yeah. Some of them were rather nice. I had a plan to start my own Micro brewery in the pub, but found getting a licence to brew commercially was rather "Difficult" at that time. Mainly because I was in a "clean air" area and they believed the fumes from brewing may pollute the area?.
All I wanted was the ability to do maybe a Polypin, Nine gallons, max, per week, as a "thing" on historical beers as educational, no more than maybe a homebrew, but, brewing on licensed premises is a lot more tricky than you would believe. Especially if it were to be "for sale"... taxation issues dontcha know?.. And also Especially for me, as this was my first time being the actual licence-holder Landlord. I was sort of "On probation" because even though experienced, I was kinda new to the job of actual landlord licensee... If I had have been there for a few years, maybe they would have been easier on me?. Maybe if I had been married to my wife at that time who already held a certificate for food production licence type thing, that would have helped as well, but as we didnt get married for a few years, being we only JUST met at that time, yeah, hindsight is perfect 20/20 isnt it?.
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Post by the light works on Mar 25, 2018 11:05:15 GMT
there is also "small beer" which was done in medieval time - after they brewed the main batch, they would cycle the malted grains through a second batch, and use that as a hydration beverage. it would keep better than the water at the time, partly because of being cooked and partly because of the small amount of alcohol in it. but it lead to our looking funny at the amount of beer it is reported people drank. - for example, as I recall of the bylaws of the knights Hospitaler, "a knight shall drink no more than two gallons of beer a day, lest the excess lead to inebriation." one of our local contributions to beer was "steam beer" which was the first in the area to be served from a sealed delivery system - which meant it was pressure delivered by the natural carbonation, and apparently the design of the tap meant there would be a shot of "steam" before the beer was delivered. - or perhaps it was bottled such that it pressurized the bottle. history is not quite clear on that - but that comes from San Francisco. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_beer
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 25, 2018 11:06:24 GMT
It's the variety of the thing that makes brewing interesting to me. it's another branch of cooking. thing is, I like the experimenting and not so much the production. for example, we know bout "nitro taps" over here - force gassing a beer with nitrogen instead of CO2. makes a finer grained fizz and a slightly different bite. so what of a He tap? how would that change the character of the beer? or what malts and hops would one use to make a true "champagne of beers"? Lets deal with this one bit at a time. Gas mixtures in Beer, we have a variety, 60/40 and 70/30 being the usual mix of N to Co 2, where you are serving Guiness, that needs that fine grain head, smaller bubbles. If you start putting 70/30 into say a Lager beer, after a few days, the lager will start to poor flat, taste flat, and go flat quicker. The particles in Guniness that is a clouds beer can hold a finer gas, the particles in a clear lager beer can not, so you get excessive off-gassing as its pored, and it goes flatter quicker. You mention He... No. That would be dangerous to Humans to consume, not just the squeaky voice thing, but it does get absorbed by the blood and replaces O2, which can be dangerous, and may give the drinker a mild "Bends" reaction?.. The mixes of gas that have been produced and used in the industry have been carefully researched to fit the product that you are making and do as little damage to either the product or the consumer as possible. For any gas you want to use, check out warnings on human consumption, and what it may do to blood chemistry, before you gas a beer with it?. And yes it is that simple. If that gas is dangerous to breath in quantities, its not that good to drink it suspended in liquid either. Nitrogen and Co 2 are common gasses in our atmosphere that are either waste gas we produce ourselves anyway or non reactive to the human condition. To change the character of your beers, as you may see by the post I just posted above, try changing the mix of what you put in. Caramel. That is a high sugar content thing that aids Yeast fermentation...Its also an after-fermentation additive that "Calms down" an over-bitter brew. And a final suggestion, I have a friend who swears by throwing in a good handful of Raisins in his mash. I think its more to do with the fruit sugars and what effect they have on the fermentation of the yeast, but, it does have some effect on the taste, for me, rather sweet after taste, but he loves it?. So play about with local edible flora, and try an addition of fruit, I have tasted a distinct "Orange" flavoured brew he nicknamed Marmalade, from one local micro-brewery, the taste was definitely distinct and original, the Jury is still "out" on if I liked it or not, but as it was far from undrinkable but rather interesting and maybe I would get to like it, I dunno yet?. But for Gas, unless you are doing a clouds heavy Porter type beer, keep the Nitrogen to a minimum in the mix, stick to Co 2 as you main gas, play instead with ingredients, try different grain mixes, and, dont forget, Rice is a grain, and Rice Beer is something that they drink in the far east, but hasnt yet made it popular over here. The initial mash is all important, get that right, you are onto a winner. You make the mash turn into Wort, that the yeast feeds on, and that is what gives you the initial flavours, so start with initials, get base flavours, make wort, add hops, clarify that, add the extra notes at any stage, play about with what stage you add certain ingredients, pre- or post fermentation, check maturation, and how you do that, is maturing on an old sherry barrel better than just plastic, then final clarification, filtered or not, there are plenty of variables to play with in how you produce, if I tried to mention them all, I would break the server with a post so long its unreadable?. But the gas is just there to form a head. Some people like a head, others not. Personally?. I much prefer a Non-gassed beer through a Fine Sparkler head on a tap with a hand pump to create the firm head when pulling the pint that clings to the side of the glass all the way down and lasts at least 20 mins. That and a good beer, priceless perfection. That with a good bitter hop brew, aids digestion dont ya know?.. VERY good for you. Hops are very good for the digestion, check Wikapedia and the likes for more on that.
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 25, 2018 11:12:42 GMT
there is also "small beer" which was done in medieval time - after they brewed the main batch, they would cycle the malted grains through a second batch, and use that as a hydration beverage. it would keep better than the water at the time, partly because of being cooked and partly because of the small amount of alcohol in it. but it lead to our looking funny at the amount of beer it is reported people drank. - for example, as I recall of the bylaws of the knights Hospitaler, "a knight shall drink no more than two gallons of beer a day, lest the excess lead to inebriation." one of our local contributions to beer was "steam beer" which was the first in the area to be served from a sealed delivery system - which meant it was pressure delivered by the natural carbonation, and apparently the design of the tap meant there would be a shot of "steam" before the beer was delivered. - or perhaps it was bottled such that it pressurized the bottle. history is not quite clear on that - but that comes from San Francisco. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_beer"Small beer", and the language of Scots who ask for a "wee pint of the heavy", the light alternative being the small beer, is a brew that was "Only just alcoholic", and basically a boiled water to remove parasites type of water "tea" with added herbs that was allowed to ferment lightly to aid storage, that as you say was the drink of the day because water from other supplies was often polluted and dangerous to drink. Often public houses brewed just enough each day to last a day and were less than a week between initial mash and sold. The art of the hospitable landlord was to predict how much he needed to brew.... Small beer was clean enough to be healthy, and low alcohol enough to allow you to remain sober-ish as long as you only consumed the "usual" required amount of liquid the body needs per day. they say 8 litres for an active person, doing manual labour type stuff, and sweating a lot, or about two gallons. The "Heavy" was the beer made heavy on the ABV that was made to make you drunk.
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Post by the light works on Mar 25, 2018 11:23:25 GMT
when I was reading the menu in the local chain pub. (I think I've posted them before, they buy up old properties and make destination pubs. each pub develops its own recipes and then they cross-ship them. their beer list is a multiple page pamphlet for those who like to read. - they had a raspberry beer on tap at the time. but it also gives you the idea - they have some beers that have three or four malts in the initial mash, and three or four varieties of hops added at specific times. then another local introduction - some pubs here have taken to filtering the finished beer through a filter body loaded with hops for a final shot of flavor. in specific IPAs, of course. www.mcmenamins.com/it also bears mentioning that hops are a shirttail cousin to cannabis, and allegedly have some of the same mellowing properties, though not in such concentration as to be smokable to get high. - but there is the claim that people drunk on beer are more convivial than those drunk on other things, because of the hops.
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Post by kharnynb on Mar 25, 2018 11:56:24 GMT
steam beer is also noted as a beer brewed with lager yeast, but at ale temperatures, resulting in a more pungent beer, especially in cali, where back then refrigeration was not as common.
Lagers are originally noted for their clearness, compared to old-style ales, as they were stored(lagered) at low temperatures for months, causing more proteins and hop/yeast detritus to drop out of the beer.
different beers use differently kilned malts, lager malts being more pale and requiring longer boiling times to remove dms(causing "vegetable" flavor). with hops, it all depends on what you want, when etc. US style hops tend to be very popular nowadays, especially the "c" hops that are very citrussy, UK traditional hops tend to be mostly used for porters and (fuggles etc). for lagers, the traditional saaz hops from czech or hallertau from germany are mostly used.
There's tons of different yeasts, each adding their own flavours, depending on how warm it is brewed as well.
(I'm a home brewer with several competition wins on my name, including 2 beers that have been commercially brewed as a "reward" for winning)
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