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Post by ironhold on Oct 24, 2017 23:40:43 GMT
For a fiction series I'm looking at, I was toying with the idea of introducing a chain store named "Tinned Liquors" as a parody of a regional chain of liquor stores.
This has me wondering.
It's common for beer to be vended in aluminum cans.
But how would beer take in "tin" cans (which are largely steel)?
Or how would other alcoholic beverages handle being stored in metal containers as opposed to wood, glass, or whatever?
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Post by GTCGreg on Oct 25, 2017 1:53:06 GMT
Most cans used for beer are made of aluminum that is coated inside. I see no reason they couldn't also coat the inside of tin cans.
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Post by the light works on Oct 25, 2017 2:20:34 GMT
original beer cans WERE tin. back before pull tabs.
and yes, all food cans are now lined.
the only catch I see is that cans are usually not intended to be resealed, so you'd have to develop that for larger containers.
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Post by wvengineer on Oct 25, 2017 14:44:01 GMT
You run into some interesting engineering economics issues with cans.
1. Soda and most beer usually has some carbonation to it. So the can is under pressure. That pressure is factored into the can design and adds strength.
2. You make the can as cheap as you can but still meet your design spec. That's business. When you are bottling on a large scale, a small cost savings on the individual unit can have a big savings overall.
3. Because of the above, when you design a steel can the steel you end up with to hold the beverage is so thin that it works on it's own, but if you put the amount of weight on top of the can that you normally see in stores or warehouses, the cans collapse. Aluminum isn't as strong, so you have to make it thicker to maintain the pressure inside. Because it is ticker the walls are stronger and are able to support wight on it better.
It does seem counter intuitive, but using more expensive aluminum is actually cheaper than using cheaper steel.
Something else to consider is that while tin was one of the first sheet metals, historically, because tin was so ubiquitous for a grey colored sheet metal, may people refer to tin when it really is sheet steel. For a lot of the late 1700's though the 1800s, your "tin" shop would work with both tin and steel sheets, but everyone just called it tin.
Even today, "tin" cans are mostly steel.
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Post by the light works on Oct 25, 2017 14:52:34 GMT
You run into some interesting engineering economics issues with cans. 1. Soda and most beer usually has some carbonation to it. So the can is under pressure. That pressure is factored into the can design and adds strength. 2. You make the can as cheap as you can but still meet your design spec. That's business. When you are bottling on a large scale, a small cost savings on the individual unit can have a big savings overall. 3. Because of the above, when you design a steel can the steel you end up with to hold the beverage is so thin that it works on it's own, but if you put the amount of weight on top of the can that you normally see in stores or warehouses, the cans collapse. Aluminum isn't as strong, so you have to make it thicker to maintain the pressure inside. Because it is ticker the walls are stronger and are able to support wight on it better. It does seem counter intuitive, but using more expensive aluminum is actually cheaper than using cheaper steel. Something else to consider is that while tin was one of the first sheet metals, historically, because tin was so ubiquitous for a grey colored sheet metal, may people refer to tin when it really is sheet steel. For a lot of the late 1700's though the 1800s, your "tin" shop would work with both tin and steel sheets, but everyone just called it tin. Even today, "tin" cans are mostly steel. they do have non carbonated beverages in aluminum cans, just under less pressure. |
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Post by mrfatso on Oct 26, 2017 6:52:15 GMT
For a fiction series I'm looking at, I was toying with the idea of introducing a chain store named "Tinned Liquors" as a parody of a regional chain of liquor stores. This has me wondering. It's common for beer to be vended in aluminum cans. But how would beer take in "tin" cans (which are largely steel)? Or how would other alcoholic beverages handle being stored in metal containers as opposed to wood, glass, or whatever? Here in the UK Cider (if it's not fermented it's just apple juice), Perry are commonly sold in cans. You can also get spirits and a mixer such as Gin and Tonic or Jack Daniels and Coke in and as well. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 26, 2017 7:43:55 GMT
"Traditionally", there may be a reason why many beers are sold in Glass.
It was product control, you could see the beer was clear not cloudy.
Its only now that we sort of trust the producers and brewers that we allow it to be sold in tin cans.
"Highly pressured" beers can only be sold in glass, because aluminium "flexes", think Chapaign style sparkling wine in a can?..
High alcohol products that have the ability to strip paint, and that is why some are given the nick of "Paint-stripper", may attack the linings of a can.
Glass is "traditional", and many products, you expect in glass.
Think of how many people see Wine in a Box.
Its the same product, yet, some people believe its inferior because its been in a box.
I got news for them.
You got a bottle of sarf-afriiican Pinot?.. you think they bottle it in heavy glass before they transport it all over the world?.
Mostly, its packaged in lighter crates of the ton weight size, and shipped that way, to a local bottling plant near point of sale, because its cheaper to transport in mass that way.
And yeah, I have had a couple of those crates on the back of my wagon at some point.
Although, in some cases, the tanker that docks is pumped into tankers.
I see no reason if a tin is prepared right why an alcoholic product may not benefit from being in tin rather than heavy glass.
I just would expect some reserve of judgement from many that expect glass?.
But in a story line in a fiction, if the story is wrote that way, and wrote well, I dont think many would object.
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 26, 2017 7:49:48 GMT
By the way, in the above post, I have not made space for "Cloudy" beers.
It is accepted that many micro-breweries now sell a cloudy ale.
It is NOT acceptable by this author to sell those products or consume them.
Cyder is different.. so is perry.
What makes them cloudy?.
Is it because you didnt filter enough particulate from the beer?.
Are those particulates part of the medium you started with, or part of the yeast that is still alive, or dead, and is it safe for them to be in there?.
Also, I hear, there are some breweries that introduce cloudy because "Its a craft beer isnt it"...
There is traditional cyder that is cloudy because you dont need to filer it, well, not that much, just remove the bits that would make you choke, and there is beer, that needs filtering, because that way you clear out all the yeast.
They use different strains of yeast.
In cyder, its natural yeast, and safe.
In some beers, its not.
End of epistle, this isnt a rant, its just me stating known facts.
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Post by the light works on Oct 26, 2017 13:49:00 GMT
"Traditionally", there may be a reason why many beers are sold in Glass. It was product control, you could see the beer was clear not cloudy. Its only now that we sort of trust the producers and brewers that we allow it to be sold in tin cans. "Highly pressured" beers can only be sold in glass, because aluminium "flexes", think Chapaign style sparkling wine in a can?.. High alcohol products that have the ability to strip paint, and that is why some are given the nick of "Paint-stripper", may attack the linings of a can. Glass is "traditional", and many products, you expect in glass. Think of how many people see Wine in a Box. Its the same product, yet, some people believe its inferior because its been in a box. I got news for them. You got a bottle of sarf-afriiican Pinot?.. you think they bottle it in heavy glass before they transport it all over the world?. Mostly, its packaged in lighter crates of the ton weight size, and shipped that way, to a local bottling plant near point of sale, because its cheaper to transport in mass that way. And yeah, I have had a couple of those crates on the back of my wagon at some point. Although, in some cases, the tanker that docks is pumped into tankers. I see no reason if a tin is prepared right why an alcoholic product may not benefit from being in tin rather than heavy glass. I just would expect some reserve of judgement from many that expect glass?. But in a story line in a fiction, if the story is wrote that way, and wrote well, I dont think many would object. here, it is not that the box makes it bad, but that the box is evidence that it is not as "fine" as wines that are individually bottled. there was a similar prejudice about wines with screw caps. now if you co to stores in the US, you see wines in cans, wine in "juice boxes" and wines in individually sealed plastic cups. It is most likely a sign that traditionalist "wine snobs" are dying off, and people are being more innovative in packaging, though there is still a perception that "heritage" wines will be traditionally bottled. so it is more of people deciding that wine doesn't have to be stuffy to be drinkable. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 27, 2017 7:36:11 GMT
Think of how many people see Wine in a Box. Its the same product, yet, some people believe its inferior because its been in a box. I got news for them. You got a bottle of sarf-afriiican Pinot?.. you think they bottle it in heavy glass before they transport it all over the world?. Mostly, its packaged in lighter crates of the ton weight size, and shipped that way, to a local bottling plant near point of sale, because its cheaper to transport in mass that way. And yeah, I have had a couple of those crates on the back of my wagon at some point. Although, in some cases, the tanker that docks is pumped into tankers. here, it is not that the box makes it bad, but that the box is evidence that it is not as "fine" as wines that are individually bottled. there was a similar prejudice about wines with screw caps. now if you co to stores in the US, you see wines in cans, wine in "juice boxes" and wines in individually sealed plastic cups. It is most likely a sign that traditionalist "wine snobs" are dying off, and people are being more innovative in packaging, though there is still a perception that "heritage" wines will be traditionally bottled. so it is more of people deciding that wine doesn't have to be stuffy to be drinkable. Well good for that. Wine "Snobs", I have had my fill of them.... Blind testing, I have had a "snob" who is supposed to know, go all gooey over a nice sparkling champaign style wine, same grape same method as that real champers, and them swear its a quality wine from the proper area. I pull up the bottle, still half full, and just walk away quietly leaving them to their awe. It was a British wine. Myself?. I can drink the stuff, it gives me the hangover from hell, and then, it aint all that anyway, I prefer the non sparking variety from other places. That and I go extra mile to go for NON phrench wine because my palate prefers other sources anyway. |
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Post by mrfatso on Oct 27, 2017 13:42:20 GMT
Wine in a Plastic glass one of the great failures of the BBC show Dragons Den, the inventor went on the show asking for investment in his product and was rejected all round, however a major British Retailer Marks and Spencer saw the potential, and the product flew off the shelves from there. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1286346/Wine-glass-Entrepreneur-ridiculed-Dragons-Den-toasts-M-S-success.htmlBritish sparkling wine, well that's hardly surprising it on the same chalky soils ( from the same geological strata) as Champange, the same climate. It's been winning a lot of awards at international wine shows for its quality and is well know now for being on a par with Champers. Now there's a Canadian Ice Cuvée that I really like.... |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 28, 2017 9:39:33 GMT
Wine in a Plastic glass one of the great failures of the BBC show Dragons Den, the inventor went on the show asking for investment in his product and was rejected all round, however a major British Retailer Marks and Spencer saw the potential, and the product flew off the shelves from there. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1286346/Wine-glass-Entrepreneur-ridiculed-Dragons-Den-toasts-M-S-success.htmlBritish sparkling wine, well that's hardly surprising it on the same chalky soils ( from the same geological strata) as Champange, the same climate. It's been winning a lot of awards at international wine shows for its quality and is well know now for being on a par with Champers. Now there's a Canadian Ice Cuvée that I really like.... Wine in plastic is now a required procedure in many city centres that allow drinks outside the building. Pre-cupped wine is good for those who shop in M&S with Walmart budget. Everyone likes to believe they are above what other people see as their social class, and if its sold in M&S it "Must be posh" is a good reason why those who cant afford a whole bottle will buy just one glass at a time. Its a sort of fashion statement in Manchester to be "seen" with an M&S bag... as it is in many cities, M&S is that step between Walmart and Fortnum and Masons.[1] Its a sort of badge of honour to have a bag that says "I have the budget to shop there"... Me and Mrs Dragon?.. we do shop there now and again for the kind of stuff you cant get elsewhere, but we take our own bag-for-life, we dont need to be seen, we already know who we are. But buying a cup of wine?. No not me. If I like it that much, I will buy the bottle. And being I have been in the trade, I already know what I like. Do we need to think we is posh?. Wind yer neck in a moment... no we bloody well dont. We dont care what "class" we are, wer are who we are, because we dont know how to be anyone else?. Like it or loathe it, we just are. Unfortunately, there are many people who like to try and "advance" their social standings. These people are fools if they dont go prepared... Because those who see people trying to put on airs and graces who dont get it "just right" are laughing at them?. To be honest, we started where we are, we have made many good friends here, and we know what we are doing. To have to go up a "notch" to mix with the petty borguouis, the "Plastic debt set" as my Dad used to call them, the Credit Card rich, those all trying to make themself posh by wasting as much money as they can, the pretend rich?.. that would be so laughable, but its just not for us?. So the type of people that go buy a plastic cup of wine... Either they are expanding their knowledge of wine by tasting a few different ones, or what are they up to?. Is a romantic meal made better by a sealed plastic cup of wine?. There is a time and a place for plastic cups. [1] Who is Fortnum and Masons?. There is Harrods, the "place to be seen" if you want to be seen as super rich. There is a few shopping streets that are the place to be if you are of that mindset, the ones with Harrods on. Fortnum and Masons is the place where those who dont need to be seen but want REAL quality go. Its the place where someone is a tired shooting jacket and jeans who drives a Landrover TD90 but is heir to a zillion quid fortune can go without anyone looking down their nose at him and talk to real decent shop assistants who dont care who you are as long as you are here. And most importantly, they will recognise you if you are a repeat customer. No presumptions. And REAL quality. People who sell to F&M send their "seconds" to Harrods?.. Also, F&M sell "Basics", not cheepo stuff, but affordable quality, in that is its sold in their store, you just know its going to be worth it, because their quality control is second to none. Well, except the royal household maybe?. But then Fortnum was part of the royal household before he was a grocer, and its that attention to detail that made him famous. They dont care what name is on the item as long as it lasts as long as its supposed to do?. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 28, 2017 11:14:57 GMT
Wine in a Plastic glass one of the great failures of the BBC show Dragons Den, the inventor went on the show asking for investment in his product and was rejected all round, however a major British Retailer Marks and Spencer saw the potential, and the product flew off the shelves from there. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1286346/Wine-glass-Entrepreneur-ridiculed-Dragons-Den-toasts-M-S-success.htmlBritish sparkling wine, well that's hardly surprising it on the same chalky soils ( from the same geological strata) as Champange, the same climate. It's been winning a lot of awards at international wine shows for its quality and is well know now for being on a par with Champers. Now there's a Canadian Ice Cuvée that I really like.... Wine in plastic is now a required procedure in many city centres that allow drinks outside the building. Pre-cupped wine is good for those who shop in M&S with Walmart budget. Everyone likes to believe they are above what other people see as their social class, and if its sold in M&S it "Must be posh" is a good reason why those who cant afford a whole bottle will buy just one glass at a time. Its a sort of fashion statement in Manchester to be "seen" with an M&S bag... as it is in many cities, M&S is that step between Walmart and Fortnum and Masons.[1] Its a sort of badge of honour to have a bag that says "I have the budget to shop there"... Me and Mrs Dragon?.. we do shop there now and again for the kind of stuff you cant get elsewhere, but we take our own bag-for-life, we dont need to be seen, we already know who we are. But buying a cup of wine?. No not me. If I like it that much, I will buy the bottle. And being I have been in the trade, I already know what I like. Do we need to think we is posh?. Wind yer neck in a moment... no we bloody well dont. We dont care what "class" we are, wer are who we are, because we dont know how to be anyone else?. Like it or loathe it, we just are. Unfortunately, there are many people who like to try and "advance" their social standings. These people are fools if they dont go prepared... Because those who see people trying to put on airs and graces who dont get it "just right" are laughing at them?. To be honest, we started where we are, we have made many good friends here, and we know what we are doing. To have to go up a "notch" to mix with the petty borguouis, the "Plastic debt set" as my Dad used to call them, the Credit Card rich, those all trying to make themself posh by wasting as much money as they can, the pretend rich?.. that would be so laughable, but its just not for us?. So the type of people that go buy a plastic cup of wine... Either they are expanding their knowledge of wine by tasting a few different ones, or what are they up to?. Is a romantic meal made better by a sealed plastic cup of wine?. There is a time and a place for plastic cups. [1] Who is Fortnum and Masons?. There is Harrods, the "place to be seen" if you want to be seen as super rich. There is a few shopping streets that are the place to be if you are of that mindset, the ones with Harrods on. Fortnum and Masons is the place where those who dont need to be seen but want REAL quality go. Its the place where someone is a tired shooting jacket and jeans who drives a Landrover TD90 but is heir to a zillion quid fortune can go without anyone looking down their nose at him and talk to real decent shop assistants who dont care who you are as long as you are here. And most importantly, they will recognise you if you are a repeat customer. No presumptions. And REAL quality. People who sell to F&M send their "seconds" to Harrods?.. Also, F&M sell "Basics", not cheepo stuff, but affordable quality, in that is its sold in their store, you just know its going to be worth it, because their quality control is second to none. Well, except the royal household maybe?. But then Fortnum was part of the royal household before he was a grocer, and its that attention to detail that made him famous. They dont care what name is on the item as long as it lasts as long as its supposed to do?. this may not translate to your side of the ocean, but here, the impression of those buying wine by the box is similar to the impression of those buying their beer in 40 ounce bottles. since it may not translate, that impression is that of a person who wants the most drunk for their buck.  |
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Post by mrfatso on Oct 28, 2017 20:58:58 GMT
The best places for wine in a plastic glass is on a picnic, saves a lot of bother carrying a bottle or separate glasses.
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Post by the light works on Oct 28, 2017 23:43:36 GMT
The best places for wine in a plastic glass is on a picnic, saves a lot of bother carrying a bottle or separate glasses. same would apply to an airliner. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 29, 2017 10:54:46 GMT
The best place for glass is on a picnic when at least the rangers can be sure your going to take your expensive glassware back home with you.
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Post by mrfatso on Oct 29, 2017 13:39:13 GMT
The best place for glass is on a picnic when at least the rangers can be sure your going to take your expensive glassware back home with you. Unless it breaks and leaves glass shards that are not picked up at the time and injure either other visitors or wildlife.......shatterproof plastic glasses won't do that. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 30, 2017 7:28:52 GMT
The best place for glass is on a picnic when at least the rangers can be sure your going to take your expensive glassware back home with you. Unless it breaks and leaves glass shards that are not picked up at the time and injure either other visitors or wildlife.......shatterproof plastic glasses won't do that. But disposable glasses are left behind in greater numbers that real glassware. Part of the problem "I saw coming" was the advent of the disposable barbecue. At that time, we were lucky, most of the ones we found had been put out. Now?. I have seen people just up and walk away from one on a beach. That is slightly better than them that just bury it under sand... you dont put it out by just throwing sand on it, they dont think that through, and what you get is a super-heated "Hot foot" patch of sand?. Thats of it doesnt catch on the suspended dried biological matter in the sand in the dune grasses and set fires in the sand dunes that is. I believe TLW had "One of them" recently that he posted about?. The number of wild camping picnics we came across was growing daily, people just dont think they need to take their waste home. This is why wild camping is illegal in England, because people just abandon their trash. Just take a look at any average festival site they day after the event ends, count the number of abandoned tents. Some even fully furnished with sleeping bags and things, and muddy clothes. Cost of ticket, over £100, cost of camping equipment, less than £50, and they will need new for next year anyway, so why take it home?. Yeah, people are that selfish. And plastic glass lets through more light than glass. So setting a fire by lens action?.. just as liable if not more so with plastic than glass. |
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Post by the light works on Oct 30, 2017 13:50:31 GMT
Unless it breaks and leaves glass shards that are not picked up at the time and injure either other visitors or wildlife.......shatterproof plastic glasses won't do that. But disposable glasses are left behind in greater numbers that real glassware. Part of the problem "I saw coming" was the advent of the disposable barbecue. At that time, we were lucky, most of the ones we found had been put out. Now?. I have seen people just up and walk away from one on a beach. That is slightly better than them that just bury it under sand... you dont put it out by just throwing sand on it, they dont think that through, and what you get is a super-heated "Hot foot" patch of sand?. Thats of it doesnt catch on the suspended dried biological matter in the sand in the dune grasses and set fires in the sand dunes that is. I believe TLW had "One of them" recently that he posted about?. The number of wild camping picnics we came across was growing daily, people just dont think they need to take their waste home. This is why wild camping is illegal in England, because people just abandon their trash. Just take a look at any average festival site they day after the event ends, count the number of abandoned tents. Some even fully furnished with sleeping bags and things, and muddy clothes. Cost of ticket, over £100, cost of camping equipment, less than £50, and they will need new for next year anyway, so why take it home?. Yeah, people are that selfish. And plastic glass lets through more light than glass. So setting a fire by lens action?.. just as liable if not more so with plastic than glass. if they won't take a tent home, why would they take what will undoubtedly be cheap glass home? it's not like they are going to take the good crystal to the picnic. and they will probably throw the bottle at a rock and break it just to hear the noise. |
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 31, 2017 7:18:39 GMT
But disposable glasses are left behind in greater numbers that real glassware. Part of the problem "I saw coming" was the advent of the disposable barbecue. At that time, we were lucky, most of the ones we found had been put out. if they won't take a tent home, why would they take what will undoubtedly be cheap glass home? it's not like they are going to take the good crystal to the picnic. and they will probably throw the bottle at a rock and break it just to hear the noise. Taking a whole camp or just a few pieces of a picnic are two differing problems. They may take the glass, because that is easier to carry. |
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