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Post by ironhold on Apr 12, 2018 1:22:54 GMT
I'm watching infamous 80s camp film "No Holds Barred" for the first time in 20 years, so...
1. In the film "No Holds Barred", Rip (Hulk Hogan) realizes that the limo driver is trying to kidnap him and so tries to escape. As part of it, Rip repeatedly kicks at the interior of the vehicle. He kicks the door several times, denting it but not fully kicking it out. He then tries to kick through the interior to the front section, but can't get through the metal security partition. Despite this, his movements and kicks are violent enough that the driver begins to swerve and smashes into a few things on the way to his destination.
So - how much force would it take to kick open a locked door on a regular limo? And could the force of these blows affect control of the vehicle?
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Post by ironhold on Apr 12, 2018 1:36:13 GMT
More limo abuse.
2. When the limo stops, Rip breaks free by bursting through the top. It doesn't appear to tear like a softtop would, but instead bursts open as if he finally punched through some sort of soft metal.
3. The limo stopped because it was going to a site where Rip was to be jumped by some thugs. Because he punched through the top he got the drop on them. In the ensuing melee, he through one thug through the front windshield and another through one of the side windshields.
4. To get at the driver, he tore off the door.
Again, using human strength, is this possible?
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Post by the light works on Apr 12, 2018 2:50:15 GMT
More limo abuse. 2. When the limo stops, Rip breaks free by bursting through the top. It doesn't appear to tear like a softtop would, but instead bursts open as if he finally punched through some sort of soft metal. 3. The limo stopped because it was going to a site where Rip was to be jumped by some thugs. Because he punched through the top he got the drop on them. In the ensuing melee, he through one thug through the front windshield and another through one of the side windshields. 4. To get at the driver, he tore off the door. Again, using human strength, is this possible? you can pop an 80s door with the average combi tool. that equates to about ten tons of force. or to go with official numbers: the Nader pin (the key component of a door latch) must withstand a minimum of 2500 pounds of force without breaking. the windshield will stop someone going at least 30 MPH. a side window is kind of a wild card. being tempered glass, it is the point load that is more likely to determine the breaking point, and if it gets the right point load, on it, it presents virtually no resistance to throwing something through it. as for punching through the top, I've driven a piercing nozzle through 80s sheet metal. and I've cut it with various hand and power tools. I'm going to go with probably not plausible, but I could be wrong. as for affecting control of the vehicle - plausible, not just from the physics of it, but from the psychological effect on the driver.
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 12, 2018 6:33:56 GMT
.."Old" limo against modern stuff. Old limo, the door locks were in the beginnings of Central Locking, modern ones automatically lock like black cab doors as soon as the vehicle starts to move, its a safety thing, you wont get though that lock easily?. Primarily to prevent drunken guests getting out before the vehicle has come to a full stop?. Glass, yeah, as TLW says, tempered glass, although, I know these days they have started to play with plastic, Acrylic glass, they type they use a lot now in fish tanks, is a hell of a lot lighter than glass, and less liable to break, again, drunken party goers. The emergency exit thing is down to the door automatically unlocking when it fully stops, the doors are now designed to be easily opened, trade off of extra weight of armoured door frames is less weight in the glass, and sun hatch windows in the roof. The window between Driver and passenger compartment should now all be Acrylic, and them things are almost bullet proof, on a show "Cop car Workshop" being aired on UK TeeVee at the moment, they took an old retired riot van and put it through paces, "hefty" rugby player shaped cops with Baseball bats stood outside getting the best swing they could, against plastic windshield and side windows, not one broke, and the claim that this is now better than glass with the slide down barriers, because it will give protection a LOT longer than conventional safety glass, and not cover those inside with shards of glass when it breaks, if it breaks. Better visibility as well, and easier to change out, and again a lot lighter than glass and conventional slide down shield. Heck they even took a pick-axe to it, and it withstood several good blows?. As for the ability to unsettle the driver by throwing your weight around in the back?. Ex Bus driver and owner of Kids experience says a passenger in movement is quite plausible that it can alter handling of a vehicle, although, not as much the heavier the vehicle, and why my Kids were restrained into car seats when they were young. Distraction?. A Good limo driver is trained to ignore all but important distractions, should automatically slow down, so should be able to carry on driving, as long as the "load" is contained?. Tear a door of from outside by human strength alone... The doors are designed to withstand the forces of a sizeable crash, and the loads imparted by such, so if a concrete and metal post at 70mph+ cant tear a door open, can any human?. Not really plausible. However, as it was said by some old Greek philosopher, {Archimedes?} give me a crowbar long enough I will move the world?. The old trope of a "superhuman" grabbing a door by the handle and ripping it off, waiving it about by the same handle, and throwing it to one side?. Personal experience again, but breaking into a car with the keys locked inside, I can tell you, them door handles aint that strong, and are designed to break off before you break into a car.. its a security thing again?. The door locks and hinges are about the strongest thing on a car door, as all the forces are designed to congregate at those points, which is why the emergency services now all carry "Jaws of life" to free trapped passengers. Punching through the top?. just additional to TLW's post, dependant on design of vehicle, if its modern Monocock "frame-less" body, the roof is part of the strengthening of the vehicle body, and load bearing, which is why a lot of modern rag-top convertibles are a lot heavier than the usual sedans, because they have to beef up the bodywork when they cut off the roof, so the tin on top of the roof is quite rigid, not just one piece 18 gauge, and dependant where you punch through the headliner, you may just hit a strengthening band. Especially over door posts. Hulk Hogan may be all that and a bag of chips, but he aint no Chuck Norris, who can open a door even if its locked just by asking it to open....
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Post by the light works on Apr 12, 2018 14:04:41 GMT
keep in mind this is 80s era hardware. everything bigger than a breadbox was body on frame construction in the US.
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 13, 2018 8:41:08 GMT
I am mindful of "old" limo's, which is why I was drawing attention to the difference, if you go try doing that on modern stuff, things is going to be a lot difference. Also consider "The beast" as the POTUS limo is known, to say the thing is Bulletproof is an understatement, I believe it would withstand a blast from a tactical nuclear penguin, "Make it bomb proof" was the brief when they built the thing, it can take a small IED and still drive like a dump truck?.
Many Limo's now are built quite sturdy... they have to be?.
But what is stronger, frame and bolt on parts or modern monocock?. ...edit, "Monocoque", its spelt that way, my spellchuckler didnt know, I had to add it in?
I am goina guess from what I have learnt over the years, structural rigidity of the frame resists bending a lot more after light impact, but monocoque will be stronger as long as it hasnt been damaged, and weight for weight, you get better rigidity from Monocoque than frame, but, it damages easier, and then, its lighter for equal initial rigidity, so there is the trade off, mono- is lighter but doesnt withstand the knocks.
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Post by the light works on Apr 13, 2018 13:58:34 GMT
I am mindful of "old" limo's, which is why I was drawing attention to the difference, if you go try doing that on modern stuff, things is going to be a lot difference. Also consider "The beast" as the POTUS limo is known, to say the thing is Bulletproof is an understatement, I believe it would withstand a blast from a tactical nuclear penguin, "Make it bomb proof" was the brief when they built the thing, it can take a small IED and still drive like a dump truck?. Many Limo's now are built quite sturdy... they have to be?. But what is stronger, frame and bolt on parts or modern monocock?. ...edit, "Monocoque", its spelt that way, my spellchuckler didnt know, I had to add it in? I am goina guess from what I have learnt over the years, structural rigidity of the frame resists bending a lot more after light impact, but monocoque will be stronger as long as it hasnt been damaged, and weight for weight, you get better rigidity from Monocoque than frame, but, it damages easier, and then, its lighter for equal initial rigidity, so there is the trade off, mono- is lighter but doesnt withstand the knocks. to draw from the fire service, the traditional body on frame gets its strength from mass, and the monocoque gets its strength from maths. an intact monocoque system will be more rigid than a body on frame, but the individual struts can be damaged more easily, and once it starts bending, it will become progressively weaker as it bends. - the other side to this, from a car perspective, is that modern cars are made from higher tech metal than older cars, and a lot of it is stronger, pound for pound, or mil for mil than old car steel.
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 15, 2018 9:48:08 GMT
I like that saying....
But with the monocoque, I watched a teacher, intently, do a vacuum test on a coke can [other brands of fizzy drink work just as well] he drew a partial vacuum on a can with a brick or half a dozen on top to show how strong the can was, then "Poked it with a stick" at arms length, at which point it crumpled. Yes he had done it several times before in practise to find out what the best pressure of partial vacuum would be to show this.
Conclusion, Monocoque structures are all very good and strong but when they crumple, all that strength just disappears?.
This I remember from my school days, proof that on occasion, trigonometry how the greeks invaded the world and all the rest of what I have never ever needed to use since, did give way, just occasionally, for something Usefull
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Post by the light works on Apr 15, 2018 10:26:35 GMT
I like that saying.... But with the monocoque, I watched a teacher, intently, do a vacuum test on a coke can [other brands of fizzy drink work just as well] he drew a partial vacuum on a can with a brick or half a dozen on top to show how strong the can was, then "Poked it with a stick" at arms length, at which point it crumpled. Yes he had done it several times before in practise to find out what the best pressure of partial vacuum would be to show this. Conclusion, Monocoque structures are all very good and strong but when they crumple, all that strength just disappears?. This I remember from my school days, proof that on occasion, trigonometry how the greeks invaded the world and all the rest of what I have never ever needed to use since, did give way, just occasionally, for something UsefullIt applies to us when we are discussing legacy construction vs modern lightweight construction. - and we used to do the soda can demo by standing on the thing - it would hold us just fine until someone poked it, and then it would pancake. but yeah, you get a legacy constructed building, and you can burn half the structural strength away, and it will still support itself. a modern lightweight truss, you burn it the same amount of time, and if it is still there at all, it will just be a heap of sticks on the ground. - the manufacturers put our trusses together with what they call a "gang nail" and it only penetrates about 3/8 of an inch - which equates to about 10 minutes of burn time before it falls out of the wood
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Post by silverdragon on Apr 15, 2018 10:38:59 GMT
Looking at the picture above, how's that put in place, is it just a one-piece nail folded out of the cut parts in the plate that you just hammer on the plate and it sticks to the wood, or is it a case of you hammer nails through the plate?.
It dont look safe enough to me, I hope I never have to live under that.
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Post by the light works on Apr 15, 2018 10:56:26 GMT
Looking at the picture above, how's that put in place, is it just a one-piece nail folded out of the cut parts in the plate that you just hammer on the plate and it sticks to the wood, or is it a case of you hammer nails through the plate?. It dont look safe enough to me, I hope I never have to live under that. it is formed, so each hole has a corresponding barb. they install them with a high pressure press. with properly installed plates, you can break the wood before the plate fails - until it catches fire, of course. there are also reinforcing straps and plates for joints and corners that are a perforated plate you drive nails through - and they even make a model of nail gun that accurately puts the nails in the holes. if I have a large area where I need to protect wiring from nails, I use the wide one for a nailplate, instead of our standard 3 inch long ones.
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Post by ironhold on Apr 23, 2018 21:34:48 GMT
Got back to watching it again.
Near the end, Zeus tries to kill Rip by impaling him with one of the turnbuckles, the metal posts that form the outer supports for the ring and the ropes.
What Zeus does is he unhooks the ropes that are connected to that turnbuckle and pulls upwards, until finally the post cracks in half around the bolt that's attaching it to the ring platform.
How much force load are we looking at?
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Post by the light works on Apr 23, 2018 23:06:11 GMT
Got back to watching it again. Near the end, Zeus tries to kill Rip by impaling him with one of the turnbuckles, the metal posts that form the outer supports for the ring and the ropes. What Zeus does is he unhooks the ropes that are connected to that turnbuckle and pulls upwards, until finally the post cracks in half around the bolt that's attaching it to the ring platform. How much force load are we looking at? not sure how the posts are anchored against lift, but with vector loading, if a wrestler climbs onto the ropes, in the middle, he is putting multiples of his body weight of tension on the ropes. - and I believe the rings are made to be rigid without having to drive any anchors into the floor.
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