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Post by rmc on Nov 26, 2020 18:10:03 GMT
Cannot explain how or why this ribbon is here. Unless after the war, in cooperation with Airforce ROTC an award was given for participants of Honor Guard in some ceremony. It looks to be an Airforce ROTC Color/Honor Guard Membership Ribbon seen on the second row from the bottom on the right in this image of ROTC ribbons (U.S. Airforce) ... and I stress "looks". I cannot get a good look at either the one you have, or the one for ROTC. If the ribbon were awarded war time, maybe the Southeastern Training Center used that ribbon before the existence of the Airforce, maybe??? Since the Army Air Corps Southeastern Training Center was kind of/sort of Airforce... ish... maybe. it could have just randomly fallen into the accumulation from a totally separate source. I'm not sure if any branches ever duplicated color patterns. (by which I mean I'm not sufficiently curious to research it) Well, with regard to duplication across services in the U.S. there are the ribbons that represent medals, like the Medal of Honor ribbon. Those look the same in all U.S. services. And, besides Army Air Corps stuff winding up in later Airforce stuff probably isn't really considered going across services... is it? I wonder. And, great job Cyber!! How'd you find that beast!? Was the one I thought a knock off, truly a knock off then? |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 26, 2020 19:17:41 GMT
From what I can tell the one on the left is a Luftwaffe cap badge, I'm guessing from later in the war. This actually seems to fit with the badge on the right, as I've seen that listed as a Luftwaffe cap badge as well; Most likely because it doesn't seem as if that badge was specific to any one service. bid.tennants.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/catalog/198/lot/443287?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F198%3Fcat%3D542%26view%3Dgrid (Its the one in the middle) Educated guess would be that these were picked up from an airman in the Luftwaffe. By 1945 there were more Luftwaffe personal serving in ground units than at airbases, so it may have been a 'battlefield acquisition'. The Luftwaffe connection might be something to keep in mind for the other badges and medals. As to how? I figured the one on the right might have been Kriegsmarine and started looking there. Noticing it was similar to the cap badges I narrowed the field down and just looked through WW2 German cap badges. Knowing the one on the right was a cap badge, well I just looked through pictures of Luftwaffe cap badges. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 26, 2020 20:14:45 GMT
it could have just randomly fallen into the accumulation from a totally separate source. I'm not sure if any branches ever duplicated color patterns. (by which I mean I'm not sufficiently curious to research it) Well, with regard to duplication across services in the U.S. there are the ribbons that represent medals, like the Medal of Honor ribbon. Those look the same in all U.S. services. And, besides Army Air Corps stuff winding up in later Airforce stuff probably isn't really considered going across services... is it? I wonder. And, great job Cyber!! How'd you find that beast!? Was the one I thought a knock off, truly a knock off then? I was referring more to the question of whether the same color pattern might have been used by the US army for one thing, by air ROTC for a different thing, and by the elbonian submariners for something else entirely. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 26, 2020 21:37:42 GMT
The colors and specific widths of such colors for U.S. decorations are controlled such that crossover between services doesn't happen. This includes Civil Air Patrol. ROTC, JROTC, etc.
Meaning xyz color pattern for a ribbon specific to the Marines isn't also used as a specifically Air Force ribbon too, or for any ribbon intended for another purpose than what the xyz color pattern was originally for.
It is also understood how such patterns are used over time: World war one ribbons vs. Iraqi Surge ribbons, all researched and understood, if any new pattern is thought to be needed that is.
Army Air Corp and Air Force are somewhat related, however the Airforce ROTC is actually pretty different from Air Force (ribbon wise) So there's that.
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Post by the light works on Nov 26, 2020 22:52:31 GMT
The colors and specific widths of such colors for U.S. decorations are controlled such that crossover between services doesn't happen. This includes Civil Air Patrol. ROTC, JROTC, etc. Meaning xyz color pattern for a ribbon specific to the Marines isn't also used as a specifically Airforce ribbon too, or for any ribbon intended for another purpose than what the xyz color pattern was originally for. It is also understood how such patterns are used over time: World war one ribbons vs. Iraqi Surge ribbons, all researched and understood, if any new pattern is thought to be needed that is. Army Air Corp and Airforce are somewhat related, however the Airforce ROTC is actually pretty different from Airforce. So there's that. I've known for quite some time that my mother's father was in the philippines during WWII. asked this year & found out my dad's uncle was in the army air corps in europe, and his father was deemed a critical industry, and spent the war delivering lumber to California seaports. about a 1000 mile round trip in a 1940s log truck. |
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Post by ironhold on Nov 27, 2020 16:50:47 GMT
I showed the Pinterest image to my family, and they agree that the ribbon is most likely the Air Force ROTC award in question.
...Which raises the other question of whether or not the award goes back to Army Air Corps days, or if it's something he picked up at a later date.
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Post by the light works on Nov 27, 2020 18:25:20 GMT
I showed the Pinterest image to my family, and they agree that the ribbon is most likely the Air Force ROTC award in question. ...Which raises the other question of whether or not the award goes back to Army Air Corps days, or if it's something he picked up at a later date. considering a lot of those pins were pretty obviously not insignia issued to him, there's a good chance it's just something he picked up. |
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Post by ironhold on Nov 27, 2020 18:49:28 GMT
I showed the Pinterest image to my family, and they agree that the ribbon is most likely the Air Force ROTC award in question. ...Which raises the other question of whether or not the award goes back to Army Air Corps days, or if it's something he picked up at a later date. considering a lot of those pins were pretty obviously not insignia issued to him, there's a good chance it's just something he picked up. Thanks again. These things are about all we have of him. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 27, 2020 20:40:52 GMT
considering a lot of those pins were pretty obviously not insignia issued to him, there's a good chance it's just something he picked up. Thanks again. These things are about all we have of him. kinda looks like he had a habit of trading for pins from people he crossed paths with. I'd guess that wasn't uncommon at the time. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 28, 2020 1:29:39 GMT
I showed the Pinterest image to my family, and they agree that the ribbon is most likely the Air Force ROTC award in question. ...Which raises the other question of whether or not the award goes back to Army Air Corps days, or if it's something he picked up at a later date. National Archives is a good source if you haven't tried it already: www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-recordsA relative of the veteran is allowed to request the deceased soldier's military history. You'll need an appropriate amount of identifying information, of course. [Researchers should be back once Covid-19 is over] It has been assumed that there are just too many unit insignia for them all to be his, and that he must have swapped to obtain some of them. I'll offer this: the southeastern training center was part of the Army Air Corps. The Cavalry insignia shows service with more than one cavalry unit. Cavalry today has both an armored and an air mission. Such that a person coming out of training at the southeastern center could possibly have joined an early air unit under some sort of Air Cavalry. (I'd need to research the units specifically to see if they had some sort of early air cavalry mission in world war 2. I've always understood air Cavalry was via helicopters - so, not something one thinks of for world war 2, since... no combat helicopter units.) And, I know that my LRS unit went from 167th to the 134th. So, even though his transition would need to happen over just months or a couple of years, it's not impossible for him to have moved from one unit to another. So, try him under "Army Air Corps" when the archives are back at it. Or, maybe call them then and ask which would be better to search, Army Cavalry, or Air Corps. 11th Armored Cavalry is naturally armored. 14th Cavalry during ww2 was a tank outfit, apparently. So another armored unit. 13th Infantry was infantry and not Cavalry. It certainly makes sense that these are other people's insignia. Air Corps training center then doing duty with armor doesn't really work too well. Nor would Air Corps end up in infantry, I'd guess? Although I did here a story once where airmen were assigned into infantry positions, but that was an odd situation So, yeah, these insignia seem unrelated to one another if there is no way "air cavalry" and Army Air Corps were a thing then AND since these are "armored" cavalry insignia anyway. Strange bunch of pieces. I don't get a feeling of who he was with: Air Corps, Infantry, or Armored. Could be difficult filling out the request form without locking that down better. Unless calling the archives helps in that regard? Sorry I wasn't much help in that regard. (I suspect the Air Corps insignia could have been his branch since it looks like after 1947 he somehow got an Air Force ribbon... although that would apparently require being in the ROTC? College after the war perhaps??) I'm confused. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 28, 2020 4:52:19 GMT
I showed the Pinterest image to my family, and they agree that the ribbon is most likely the Air Force ROTC award in question. ...Which raises the other question of whether or not the award goes back to Army Air Corps days, or if it's something he picked up at a later date. National Archives is a good source if you haven't tried it already: www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-recordsA relative of the veteran is allowed to request the deceased soldier's military history. You'll need an appropriate amount of identifying information, of course. [Researchers should be back once Covid-19 is over] It has been assumed that there are just too many unit insignia for them all to be his, and that he must have swapped to obtain some of them. I'll offer this: the southeastern training center was part of the Army Air Corps. The Cavalry insignia shows service with more than one cavalry unit. Cavalry today has both an armored and an air mission. Such that a person coming out of training at the southeastern center could possibly have joined an early air unit under some sort of Air Cavalry. (I'd need to research the units specifically to see if they had some sort of early air cavalry mission in world war 2. I've always understood air Cavalry was via helicopters - so, not something one thinks of for world war 2, since... no combat helicopter units.) And, I know that my LRS unit went from 167th to the 134th. So, even though his transition would need to happen over just months or a couple of years, it's not impossible for him to have moved from one unit to another. So, try him under "Army Air Corps" when the archives are back at it. Or, maybe call them then and ask which would be better to search, Army Cavalry, or Air Corps. 11th Armored Cavalry is naturally armored. 14th Cavalry during ww2 was a tank outfit, apparently. So another armored unit. 13th Infantry was infantry and not Cavalry. It certainly makes sense that these are other people's insignia. Air Corps training center then doing duty with armor doesn't really work too well. Nor would Air Corps end up in infantry, I'd guess? Although I did here a story once where airmen were assigned into infantry positions, but that was an odd situation So, yeah, these insignia seem unrelated to one another if there is no way "air cavalry" and Army Air Corps were a thing then AND since these are "armored" cavalry insignia anyway. Strange bunch of pieces. I don't get a feeling of who he was with: Air Corps, Infantry, or Armored. Could be difficult filling out the request form without locking that down better. Unless calling the archives helps in that regard? Sorry I wasn't much help in that regard. (I suspect the Air Corps insignia could have been his branch since it looks like after 1947 he somehow got an Air Force ribbon... although that would apparently require being in the ROTC? College after the war perhaps??) I'm confused. I was going more on the fact there were US, French, and German insignia in the collection. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 28, 2020 13:21:17 GMT
French?
I didn't see that. "Allons" is French, that's true. But, it's a motto chosen for an American Army unit.
Allons : Let's GO!
You know... it's from that 11th Cavalry unit that you found.
Is that the French you are talking about?
Besides, nothing I said above was directed at you originally. I mean, I am now since you mentioned a French unit. But before when I said "it has been assumed..." that wasn't specifically directed toward you. So, I don't see the need for you to explain what you specifically meant, since so many of us likely felt something similar, you know? In other words, don't get defense or take anything above personally. Okay? Unless you want to take it "personally" that I've now asked about the "French unit". But, don't take that personally either. I just don't see a French unit where apparently you do...
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Post by the light works on Nov 28, 2020 14:53:05 GMT
French? I didn't see that. "Allons" is French, that's true. But, it's a motto chosen for an American Army unit. Allons : Let's GO! You know... it's from that 11th Cavalry unit that you found. Is that the French you are talking about? Besides, nothing I said above was directed at you originally. I mean, I am now since you mentioned a French unit. But before when I said "it has been assumed..." that wasn't specifically directed toward you. So, I don't see the need for you to explain what you specifically meant, since so many of us likely felt something similar, you know? In other words, don't get defense or take anything above personally. Okay? Unless you want to take it "personally" that I've now asked about the "French unit". But, don't take that personally either. I just don't see a French unit where apparently you do... ah, yes. was still waking up, doing online research on unit pins, and dealing with car wash worries all while trying to get my brain online to try to get back to work after an illness with quarantine. since my search string was "french unit pins" I assumed the result was a french unit without actually checking the provenance of the unit it linked to. that still leaves US and German insignia, and I could be wrong, but I think they kind of frowned on people working for both companies at the same time. |
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Post by rmc on Nov 28, 2020 15:30:40 GMT
French? I didn't see that. "Allons" is French, that's true. But, it's a motto chosen for an American Army unit. Allons : Let's GO! You know... it's from that 11th Cavalry unit that you found. Is that the French you are talking about? Besides, nothing I said above was directed at you originally. I mean, I am now since you mentioned a French unit. But before when I said "it has been assumed..." that wasn't specifically directed toward you. So, I don't see the need for you to explain what you specifically meant, since so many of us likely felt something similar, you know? In other words, don't get defense or take anything above personally. Okay? Unless you want to take it "personally" that I've now asked about the "French unit". But, don't take that personally either. I just don't see a French unit where apparently you do... ah, yes. was still waking up, doing online research on unit pins, and dealing with car wash worries all while trying to get my brain online to try to get back to work after an illness with quarantine. since my search string was "french unit pins" I assumed the result was a french unit without actually checking the provenance of the unit it linked to. that still leaves US and German insignia, and I could be wrong, but I think they kind of frowned on people working for both companies at the same time. By 1940 and beyond, right... (But, you know... it kind of looks like America and others sort of bet on the Fascist "horse", basically backing them to proxy-fight the Commie horse... we kinda bet on the wrong horse, 1930s) And it wasn't just us either. Anything to be against Russia, I suppose... even if that means inflating Hitler and his henchmen. Yikes! I wonder if someone could have joined their Army?? Seems there were some German-Americans who infact did just that. But, that's not what you meant. I got the joke. |
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Post by ironhold on Nov 28, 2020 18:53:37 GMT
I showed the Pinterest image to my family, and they agree that the ribbon is most likely the Air Force ROTC award in question. ...Which raises the other question of whether or not the award goes back to Army Air Corps days, or if it's something he picked up at a later date. National Archives is a good source if you haven't tried it already: www.archives.gov/veterans/military-service-recordsThe National Archives suffered a fire at one point that destroyed a large chunk of records, and we have confirmation from them that his records were among those affected. All we were able to get from them was a set of medical records, which fortunately mentioned (for reasons we don't know) some of his decorations. |
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Post by the light works on Nov 28, 2020 20:00:47 GMT
ah, yes. was still waking up, doing online research on unit pins, and dealing with car wash worries all while trying to get my brain online to try to get back to work after an illness with quarantine. since my search string was "french unit pins" I assumed the result was a french unit without actually checking the provenance of the unit it linked to. that still leaves US and German insignia, and I could be wrong, but I think they kind of frowned on people working for both companies at the same time. By 1940 and beyond, right... (But, you know... it kind of looks like America and others sort of bet on the Fascist "horse", basically backing them to proxy-fight the Commie horse... we kinda bet on the wrong horse, 1930s) And it wasn't just us either. Anything to be against Russia, I suppose... even if that means inflating Hitler and his henchmen. Yikes! I wonder if someone could have joined their Army?? Seems there were some German-Americans who infact did just that. But, that's not what you meant. I got the joke. yeah, I'm pretty sure there were people who moved to Germany to support Hitler. of course there were also people who fled germany to avoid joining the army. and yeah, commienism was bad until they figured out fascism was worse; and then as soon as fascism was squashed, commienism became bad again. for being the land of the free and the home of the brave we sure have a lot of boogiemen. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Nov 28, 2020 21:13:32 GMT
Could your grandfather have been in the 17th Airborne Division?
I ask because from what little research I can find it appears as if some of their units were officially listed as 'infantry' rather than airborne troops for, reasons.
The Division took part in Operation Varsity in 1945, and did have some armor attached to and part of it at that date. Plus the date would fit with the two cap badges; the 'cruder' Luftwaffe badge and the Memorial badge which might well have come from a veteran pushed into a second line or home defense unit.
It might be worth looking into it, to see if he appears on the divisional records that have survived.
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Post by rmc on Nov 28, 2020 22:43:52 GMT
The National Archives suffered a fire at one point that destroyed a large chunk of records, and we have confirmation from them that his records were among those affected. All we were able to get from them was a set of medical records, which fortunately mentioned (for reasons we don't know) some of his decorations. Without his unit understood, how did you complete the request form for them to respond with "his was in a fire"? The online form I looked at requires his name, date of birth, branch and unit, stuff like that. I mean, I believe you because I have never looked up another veteran or even myself for that matter so I don't know all the particulars to be certain, but having the branch and unit at least LOOKED required from what I saw, you know? The search process must have some sort of wiggle room for when you don't actually have the unit or what-have-you. Is that right? |
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Post by rmc on Nov 29, 2020 14:30:46 GMT
Could your grandfather have been in the 17th Airborne Division? I ask because from what little research I can find it appears as if some of their units were officially listed as 'infantry' rather than airborne troops for, reasons. The Division took part in Operation Varsity in 1945, and did have some armor attached to and part of it at that date. Plus the date would fit with the two cap badges; the 'cruder' Luftwaffe badge and the Memorial badge which might well have come from a veteran pushed into a second line or home defense unit. It might be worth looking into it, to see if he appears on the divisional records that have survived. Apparently, according to Ironhold, medical records were obtained. AR 40-100 (1943) did require screening for airborne status. Such that the flight surgeon should show a basic medical exam clearing "jump status" in these available medical records. Bone structure and blood pressure would be part of such medical exam, apparently. See paragraph #9 in the military medical history information linked below history.amedd.army.mil/booksdocs/wwii/PrsnlHlthMsrs/chapter1.htmAlso.. It would seem to me that Distinctive Unit Insignia (DUI) for 17th Airborne should be in the collection having the golden eagle talon. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/17th_Airborne_Division_(United_States)But, maybe you (Cyber) have figured out how the usual insignia assigned were not issued. Or lost perhaps? Could the soldier in question have been assigned to 17th airborne without being screened for jump status (med records) and further been assigned to 17th airborne, having been given the proper insignia, but said insignia has merely been lost? Or some other way that proper unit insignia is not found in this collection? |
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Post by ironhold on Nov 29, 2020 21:14:23 GMT
The National Archives suffered a fire at one point that destroyed a large chunk of records, and we have confirmation from them that his records were among those affected. All we were able to get from them was a set of medical records, which fortunately mentioned (for reasons we don't know) some of his decorations. Without his unit understood, how did you complete the request form for them to respond with "his was in a fire"? The online form I looked at requires his name, date of birth, branch and unit, stuff like that. I mean, I believe you because I have never looked up another veteran or even myself for that matter so I don't know all the particulars to be certain, but having the branch and unit at least LOOKED required from what I saw, you know? The search process must have some sort of wiggle room for when you don't actually have the unit or what-have-you. Is that right? My mom had just enough to file the request in the first place courtesy of a smattering of military records she found cleaning her mother's house out after her mother was placed in a nursing home (grandma had Alzheimer's and so could no longer take care of herself). That's when the National Archives got back to her with the explanation that his records were among those lost and that what we were getting was what little they could find as his files were among the ones affected. But yeah - about the fire: www.archives.gov/personnel-records-center/fire-1973In 1973, a fire ripped through an archives facility in St. Louis, Missouri. It took local firefighters two days to put it out, during which at least one pumper truck broke down after 40 hours of continuous use. It's estimated that well over 75% of the documents kept in the building were lost during this, either consumed in the fire or destroyed during the containment effort. The National Archives confirmed that his records were among the ones that had been stored at the facility during the fire, and what we got was all that they were able to salvage. |
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