|
Post by the light works on Jun 7, 2021 2:36:54 GMT
it occurred to me today to wonder if hit and miss engine control might be a more efficient way to operate an engine than with a traditional throttle. I recall, we had an engine expert who pointed out an ICE operates at its best efficiency at WOT while under sufficient load to prevent over revving. so, then, would a hit and miss engine - running with the valves open and no fuel delivered when it was above the selected engine speed and the valves operating and fuel being delivered below the selected engine speed - operate more efficiently than an engine of the same displacement and compression, but with the engine speed controlled by a throttle?
obviously, the biggest obstacle to testing is that they stopped improving hit and miss engines when they developed throttle controlled engines, but what other things would we need to consider to test such a theory?
it's okay to also digress into challenges of adapting hit and miss engines to modern driving habits.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 7, 2021 4:34:12 GMT
Seems like an engine that spends so much time not producing power can't be very efficient, but then, what do I know.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 7, 2021 5:16:02 GMT
If you were to be inclined to adapt a hit-miss to an automobile, I think the best approach would be to go with some type of electric hybrid. Flywheels are fine for storing energy, but it's a little difficult at getting that energy back on demand and at a variable rate. If you coupled the hit-miss with a generator, you could then route just the amount of power you need to the wheels and send the rest to a small battery pack to deliver peak power when needed. The hit-miss could just sit there doing it's hit miss thing at a constant RPM. Sort of what they do with diesel-electric train locomotives.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 7, 2021 6:16:00 GMT
Another thing to consider is the way the governor on a hit-miss engine keeps the engine from firing during the “miss” cycles. It does so by holding the exhaust valve open for the entire cycle. So during miss cycles, air is constantly being drawn into and then pushed out of the cylinder. It has to be terribly inefficient moving all that air to no benefit. After all, that’s exactly how a jake brake works on a semi.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 7, 2021 14:22:30 GMT
Another thing to consider is the way the governor on a hit-miss engine keeps the engine from firing during the “miss” cycles. It does so by holding the exhaust valve open for the entire cycle. So during miss cycles, air is constantly being drawn into and then pushed out of the cylinder. It has to be terribly inefficient moving all that air to no benefit. After all, that’s exactly how a jake brake works on a semi. actually, the jake brake operates by holding the exhaust valve closed until the engine hits TDC and then opening the valve to release the pressure, then closing it, again, so the cylinder is under vacuum. in comparison, the hit and miss engine never compresses or produces vacuum, unless the governor calls for a power stroke. a better comparison is how a GM V-4/6/8 operates - holding the valves open on the unused cylinders to reduce pumping losses.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 7, 2021 14:25:44 GMT
Seems like an engine that spends so much time not producing power can't be very efficient, but then, what do I know. but is it any less efficient than an engine that spends most of its time producing a fraction of the power it is designed to produce? or to make the comparison more specific, is it more inefficient for an engine to produce 20% power on every stroke, or to produce 100% power on 20% of the strokes?
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 7, 2021 14:30:02 GMT
If you were to be inclined to adapt a hit-miss to an automobile, I think the best approach would be to go with some type of electric hybrid. Flywheels are fine for storing energy, but it's a little difficult at getting that energy back on demand and at a variable rate. If you coupled the hit-miss with a generator, you could then route just the amount of power you need to the wheels and send the rest to a small battery pack to deliver peak power when needed. The hit-miss could just sit there doing it's hit miss thing at a constant RPM. Sort of what they do with diesel-electric train locomotives. the option I'd thought of was a CVT drivetrain. a heavy flywheel could give regenerative braking, but you could probably get better weight efficiency with the hybrid.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 7, 2021 15:59:45 GMT
Another thing to consider is the way the governor on a hit-miss engine keeps the engine from firing during the “miss” cycles. It does so by holding the exhaust valve open for the entire cycle. So during miss cycles, air is constantly being drawn into and then pushed out of the cylinder. It has to be terribly inefficient moving all that air to no benefit. After all, that’s exactly how a jake brake works on a semi. actually, the jake brake operates by holding the exhaust valve closed until the engine hits TDC and then opening the valve to release the pressure, then closing it, again, so the cylinder is under vacuum. in comparison, the hit and miss engine never compresses or produces vacuum, unless the governor calls for a power stroke. a better comparison is how a GM V-4/6/8 operates - holding the valves open on the unused cylinders to reduce pumping losses. I'm not that familiar with these engines so I could be wrong, but I thought that the current variable displacement engines just completely deactivated the valves, leaving them closed, to shut down the unused cylinders.
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on Jun 7, 2021 19:45:02 GMT
The problem with our friend from the old board is that while the engine may be most efficient at WOT, the whole car as a system is not. Say the engine is a WOT, but the tranie is only in 2nd out of 6 gears, obviously it isn't the most efficient setup for the system. Additionally, the faster the car goes, the more aerodynamic drag, so the more energy is needed to maintain speed.
I'm not even sure about WOT being the most efficient point for an engine. Yes you are minimizing throttle loses, But if it were the most efficient point, why is it not used commonly? There are plenty of cars that can hold the engine at a relatively stable speed and vary other factors as they drive to give the desired speed. The idea being to hold the engine at a it's most efficient point. It's common with Hybrids and high efficiency (CVT) cars. My old '14 Honda Civic with CVT would hold around 1500-1750 RPM and let the CVT vary to whatever speed I wanted.
The first problem I can see with TLW's idea is that it takes more energy to accelerate than to maintain a speed. So a Hit & Miss cycle would loose momentum as it coasts which would have to be recovered. The shorter the cycle, the less loss.
I would go with a electric hybrid design. Flywheels are best in stationary setups. They are heavy, so it would take a lot more energy to get the car moving. Flywheels don't like to be maneuvered. Such a flywheel would have a major affect on handling. The Ol' Newton's 1st Law of Motion thing.
|
|
|
Post by GTCGreg on Jun 8, 2021 3:11:55 GMT
Flywheels are best in stationary setups. They are heavy, so it would take a lot more energy to get the car moving. Flywheels don't like to be maneuvered. Such a flywheel would have a major affect on handling. The Ol' Newton's 1st Law of Motion thing. The flywheel on a hit-miss turns pretty slow, but you'd still want the axis of rotation to be vertical.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 8, 2021 3:13:23 GMT
The problem with our friend from the old board is that while the engine may be most efficient at WOT, the whole car as a system is not. Say the engine is a WOT, but the tranie is only in 2nd out of 6 gears, obviously it isn't the most efficient setup for the system. Additionally, the faster the car goes, the more aerodynamic drag, so the more energy is needed to maintain speed. I'm not even sure about WOT being the most efficient point for an engine. Yes you are minimizing throttle loses, But if it were the most efficient point, why is it not used commonly? There are plenty of cars that can hold the engine at a relatively stable speed and vary other factors as they drive to give the desired speed. The idea being to hold the engine at a it's most efficient point. It's common with Hybrids and high efficiency (CVT) cars. My old '14 Honda Civic with CVT would hold around 1500-1750 RPM and let the CVT vary to whatever speed I wanted. The first problem I can see with TLW's idea is that it takes more energy to accelerate than to maintain a speed. So a Hit & Miss cycle would loose momentum as it coasts which would have to be recovered. The shorter the cycle, the less loss. I would go with a electric hybrid design. Flywheels are best in stationary setups. They are heavy, so it would take a lot more energy to get the car moving. Flywheels don't like to be maneuvered. Such a flywheel would have a major affect on handling. The Ol' Newton's 1st Law of Motion thing. the problem with the disparity in engine efficiency is we want cars that can go faster than they should. the idea behind a lot of these new city cars, like the smart, and the Ford Transit Connect is to make a car that has a much lower top speed, so it is operating at its best engine efficiency closer to the normal cruising speed. to be clear, his statement was that the engine is at its peak efficiency it can't accelerate any more - which made no claims of whether drag was increasing the load sufficiently to reduce VEHICLE efficiency. as for the flywheels, I remember someone writing about the headaches involved with somebody's flywheel buses. whihc brings up the question of whether it would be possible to build a machine with a gyrosocopic drivetrain. I'm sure it would be terribly funky and inefficient, but could you use a gyroscope to turn a wheel instead of a merry go round.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Jun 8, 2021 3:15:15 GMT
Flywheels are best in stationary setups. They are heavy, so it would take a lot more energy to get the car moving. Flywheels don't like to be maneuvered. Such a flywheel would have a major affect on handling. The Ol' Newton's 1st Law of Motion thing. The flywheel on a hit-miss turns pretty slow, but you'd still want the axis of rotation to be vertical. there's an old youtube video of a hit and miss go cart, where he has the axis of the flywheel in line with the cart. probably more to make it easy to route the belt drive than for any safety reason.
|
|