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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Nov 30, 2012 21:35:03 GMT
This one is popular with doctors: "This will only hurt a little"
The docs usually knows that is inaccurate,...it is going to hurt more than a little. So, is that just to effect the way the patient is thinking and make them believe it hurts less than it does?
Though, when you hear that sentence, do you focus on the word 'hurt' which insinuates pain?
Does if or what the doctor says before doing something that causes pain (shots, blood draws, etc) really effect the amount of pain we feel?
Or, does it actually make us prepare for the opposite effect? -> If the doc says it will hurt a little, do we tend to prepare for the worst? -> If you were told it would hurt a lot, would you decide the doc is joking and not focus on the pain? -> What's effect is created when the doc says 'you won't feel a thing'?
In the end, is pain partially psychological?
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Post by PK on Nov 30, 2012 22:02:47 GMT
I think the statement is based (at least originally) on the idea that much of the pain is psychological: it's about the anticipation that it's going to hurt and the idea that quelling that fear will help with the pain.
Last time I had to get a filling, I noticed that the dentist tried to "hide" the needle with the anesthetic as he was bringing it up to my mouth. It wasn't dramatic; he was simply keeping his other hand in front of it. I think that's an example of the same thing: The idea is that seeing that long needle is going to make some people anxious, and that is going to make it "hurt" more. By hiding the needle, you're limiting the pain.
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Post by freegan on Dec 1, 2012 8:02:21 GMT
I have a friend that has a phobia of needles. While his rational side is accepting the necessity of the injection, his emotive side is generating anxiety and fear causing him to tense in anticipation of pain which, of course, is the result he experiences.
He reports that during his last injection he was deliberately distracted by a young woman with a large cleavage entering the room, such is the frustration that the nurses have with his phobia. He still felt pain and I expect that 'rewards' for his phobia will not diminish its presentation at the clinic.
My personal opinion is that there is a strong psychological component to these experiences and that it is established in early childhood when preventive vaccinations are prescribed.
In the days of his and my childhood, needles were used multiple times and inevitably became blunt, causing pain in the unlucky later subjects who would often see the 'stinger'. Nowadays, needles are single use and sharpness is guaranteed while the anticipation and sensation of pain is much reduced by concealing the needle and distracting the first-time injectee, especially infants.
Perhaps a study of needle-phobia can be correlated against age to test whether modern practices have reduced its incidence.
Self-injectors, such as diabetics, could separately supply anecdotal information regarding their feelings on first self-administering and correlated with age to compare with the other study.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 1, 2012 8:18:19 GMT
Freegan{- I have a friend that has a phobia of needles.
Yes, ME!
My experiences actually resemble closely that of what you wrote, unfortunately I have yet to have the Pretty Nurse one, but I live in Hope (A small town near Buxton on the A6 south of Manchester... ) (Local Joke...)
Anyway, Its not the "pain" I am feared of, its the feeling of something non-natural being poked into my skin?...
YES its a psychological thing, I know that, and have to fight it whenever I give blood, but I still HATE needles with a passion...
Wont hurt Much?... let me jab it into you then?....
I also get a regular pain killing injection series into my spine, thats a set of 20 needles or so put in under Xray so they can see they go to the right place, "Epidural" type injections....
I go a little light headed when this procedure starts, the combined worry/stress/fear is not good for me, but, its either that or I dont walk?... I get a day looking and feeling like I sat on a Porcupine, but three months of almost pain free....
My Docs (that know me) now say "Shall we just get this done then?.." and let me get comfortable than just go straight in.... I need someone to steady my arm if its a giving blood thing, as I have a natural instinct to pull away that I cannot disable, but once the needle is in, its in, and I can cope... I just can not EVER watch the needle going in.
What annoys me is those nurses who think a few encouraging words such as "Big man like you afraid of such a tiny thing?.." is going to either help or "Shame" me into NOT being wary?... Awae hame 'n' bail yer heed numpty..... Lets loose a mouse and see if yer scream shall we?... its only a Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie, what are YOU feared of?....
Apologies for breaking into 'Wegie there a bit, but the Glasgow lingo is much more colourful when expressing such emotions.
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Post by freegan on Dec 1, 2012 9:39:09 GMT
"Wee, sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie"?Really?" Firefighters in Taiwan caught a 35cm snake and put it into a cage for safe-keeping. They found a tiny mouse and threw him into the cage as food for the snake but what happened next was hard to believe. The tiny mouse became so aggressive when he saw the snake in the cage that he started to attack it, bite it and scratch it continuously. After a vicious 30 minute battle, the snake was dead and the mouse was left with hardly a scratch." Seriously, I do sympathise with your phobia, as I do my friend's. You are both, in my opinion, unfortunate victims of circumstances that imprinted you both at an early age, before the capacity for rational thought had developed in your young brains. Sadly, there is little that can be done to remove that imprinting.
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Post by the light works on Dec 1, 2012 14:45:22 GMT
I am also phobic about needles - and it is centered partly around the unnaturalness that silver mentions, and partly around the fact that my personality has a strong drive to not deliberately cause myself pain; and I know from experience that sticking things into my skin generally causes discomfort.
fortunately, in my case, it is pretty mild, and I am not yet of a degree of health which requires me to subject myself to needles on any sort of a regular basis.
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 1, 2012 18:49:04 GMT
So how would you test this? I don't think they would want to jab needles into someone....
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Post by freegan on Dec 2, 2012 2:46:38 GMT
So how would you test this? I don't think they would want to jab needles into someone.... I don't think that this would be an ethical or entertaining subject for the MythBusters to test. Only qualified medical professionals would have the skills and authority to research this, provided that it was conducted under controlled, ethically sound conditions with a clear goal of providing benefit to Science. There may already have been such research of which we are unaware, into the subject. I was treating the subject as simply a discussion in the vein of the old board's "Science Questions" rather than a myth.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Dec 2, 2012 4:24:43 GMT
There are syringes with needles that retract with a button push (for safety after injection). You could approach the subject with the syringe but retract the needle just before contact with the subject. Would this suffice as a test? Or, would this end up being more of a test in the sense of the "placebo effect"?
Then again, this would make it possible to have a blind test: only half the subjects are informed that the needle will not actually puncture their skin.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 2, 2012 8:18:24 GMT
[/size][/quote]
Nope, I am squeamish at the best of times but just do not like the "feel" of the needle going in.....
Squeamish?... here I am, full St Johns Ambulance first aid certificate, have been at the side of the road patching people up before the Paramedics and Ambulances arrive in a multiple vehicle accident, but sit me down and watch Doctors do even the mildest surgery on TV?... I curl up and cringe....
Dont get that wrong, if you get a serious injury and I am the only one around, I do what needs to be done, keep focused, and mind control my fears back into a tiny corner... But afterwards?... I may need to go for a short walk.... stiff Whisky required....
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Post by the light works on Dec 2, 2012 15:09:30 GMT
[/size][/quote] Nope, I am squeamish at the best of times but just do not like the "feel" of the needle going in..... Squeamish?... here I am, full St Johns Ambulance first aid certificate, have been at the side of the road patching people up before the Paramedics and Ambulances arrive in a multiple vehicle accident, but sit me down and watch Doctors do even the mildest surgery on TV?... I curl up and cringe.... Dont get that wrong, if you get a serious injury and I am the only one around, I do what needs to be done, keep focused, and mind control my fears back into a tiny corner... But afterwards?... I may need to go for a short walk.... stiff Whisky required.... [/quote] right, because rational people understand the purpose of skin is for poking things through.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 3, 2012 8:32:40 GMT
Is it a "Rational" thing?..... I cant answer that. How are some people more happy to allow needles than others?...
All I have is my own experience, and that is not, was not, never will be "Nice", ok, I know thats the same for everyone, its just personally it triggers the "Flee" response... Armageddon.... as in Arm-a-geddon-out-of-here....
Big Whus?... Maybe. I just ... erm... how to explain?... well I cant say DONT LIKE, because that is small beans compared to what I feel... Absolute terror?... close?... I have been in a "Head on" accident in my youth when a vehicle pulled across my path with no warning and even less space to stop in... What I get when faced with a needle is the same exact "This is going to hurt" prediction... Does that explain it?...
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Post by Lokifan on Dec 3, 2012 9:27:41 GMT
The thing most people don't understand is that a phobia is not just a fear, it's an IRRATIONAL fear. You can't reason with it; it just is. Some aren't even aware of the exact triggers for the phobia, they just deal with the results.
If it's severe enough, it can completely override any normal response, as the fight/flight/faint reaction takes over. When it gets that bad, you need help. Desensitization and relaxation training can go a long way if you're willing to work hard.
I've got a phobia of all medical situations. Just talking about it disturbs me. I've reached the point where I can do what needs doing and have a reasonable chance of remaining in control, but it's a struggle still.
What started it? I've got a few ideas--all incidents in my childhood. Knowing about them doesn't really help.
Like SD, I too can and have functioned in emergencies without a problem. I've helped out at car accidents, and with other injuries. It's non-emergency situations that really give me problems.
There is nothing more frustrating that wrestling with a genuine phobia--and no amount of abuse by the ignorant can make it go away. If it were that easy, all such sufferers would have cured themselves long ago. News flash: We KNOW it's not rational and seems ridiculous, but we CAN'T help it. Telling us to "Get over it" is not helpful at all.
Distractions can help (as the cleavage girl showed). A good healthcare professional understands this, and when you explain in no uncertain terms about your phobia, they're usually willing to work with you because a stressed out patient (or worse, a fainting or seizing patient) can ruin their whole day.
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Post by mrfatso on Dec 4, 2012 17:59:29 GMT
I am okay when injecting myself with an insulin pen, but get very nervous when the phlebotomist has to do a blood test, like last week and had to dig around a bit to find the vein.
However, is this because the pen needle is a tiny 8mm long and as fine as a hair, compared to the large gauge needle used to take blood, and the fact that I control my own injection, and unlike nurses who want to jab it in as quick as possible, slide it in gently and more slowly.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 5, 2012 8:57:08 GMT
I was given one of those "You cant see the needle" things (pens) a short while ago.... They made one up especially for me, because I am needle-phobic, to self inject myself with something non medicinal, just to see if I could handle one?.... The reason being one of my Sons had to go on a set of self-injections, and it was either me or the Kid, so they wanted to know just HOW bad I would be.... Epic Fail. You are supposed to hold the thing steady?.... My hand shook so much it looked like I was mixing a can of paint?.... Sweated more than a Boiler stoker on a steam ship........ Handle the pen?.. I had as much dexterity with that as I would have had writing this whilst wearing boxing gloves?... I never did get to press the button.... But heck, I gave it a go. At least I know my own limitations?... I am however left wondering that in an emergency situation, COULD I do it to someone else?.... I an hoping the answer will be yes, as a good friend is Diabetic........... Perhaps in that situation I wont have time to think, and will just get the job done?.... Eventually, My son, who is also slightly needle phobic (dunno where he gets that from?.... ) overcame his own fears and was able to do it himself.... May the Gods preserve us if I ever became Insulin dependant Diabetic... I wonder if they do it in Tablet form?..... ****Mini Myth Idea**** possibly not a good one?.. opinions invited please. Can someone who like me and others is MASSIVELY needle phobic react to an emergency situation?... Scenario I suggest, get one of these epi-pen things without the needle in it, so no actual injection will take place, and "stage" the need to inject someone, as in someone "Act Out" having a Diabetic seizure, and see how well someone like me would react in that situation?... No other Pre-warning, other than pre-warn people of possible need for that certain person's medical history.... Do you think this may be a bad idea?... I am suggesting this because of my own history with Needles, and I just do not know exactly how I would react, but hope I would cope.....
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Post by mrfatso on Dec 5, 2012 9:51:01 GMT
No no tablet for Insulin, the digestive system would destroy it, there are tablets like Metaformin or Sitagliptin but once you become Insulin dependant it's the needle for you, at least in this country, I know some countries have approved nasal sprays for some people, but NICE has not approved it here.
It becomes easier with time, believe me, when I started to self inject it took a long while to get up the nerve to do it each time, but after a few weeks it wasn't a problem anymore, it probably helped that it relived done other symptoms so I knew it was doing some good.
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Post by the light works on Dec 5, 2012 14:47:59 GMT
the new preferred term ins "exsanguinatrix" (the ones in my area are female more often than not)
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Post by c64 on Dec 5, 2012 17:49:55 GMT
This one is popular with doctors: "This will only hurt a little" Better than the old doctor and nurse talk: "This won't hurt us". Since it's just one individual that's hurt and not the group "us". What really gets the dentist is if you refuse the pain shot. Or advising the surgeon when he stitches up your wound. But what really makes them mad is to "do it yourself" during a blood donation because the only one who may plug you in is distracted by a medical emergency. The problem is that they are still responsible for your health even if it was you who had messed things up.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Dec 5, 2012 19:02:37 GMT
Due to my wonderful medical condition, I have to check my blood sugar via fingerstick every morning. Almost at the point that my fingertips have become numb to the needle. Also, get to have blood drawn every three months, only about a gallon or so. Perhaps it's due to overexposure that I no longer even flinch when the needle is presented to me or put into my arm (always in the same spot on the inside of my left elbow, have a permanent divot from needlesticks). Could it be that the treatment methods for those with a phobia to needles could be distraction (Loki's "Cleavage girl" ) and/or overexposure as an attempt to desensitize the subject? I think in the case of life or death, instinct takes over and rational thought processes are kicked to the curb. I believe that a needlephobic would be able to stick another with a needle if that other's life depended on it. This goes into the same category as someone, who is not EMT or FF, running into a burning building to save someone. Rational thought is screaming 'what are you thinking?' but instinct is screaming 'you need to save those people' much louder.
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Post by c64 on Dec 5, 2012 19:39:36 GMT
It depends on how you got your first shot in your life. With the doctor hitting a nerve which is very painful for a toddler or not. I happened to get lucky and I am not afraid of needles at all.
Nowadays, the doctor probes for sensitive spots on a toddlers skin to prevent that they become scared of needles. Sadly, I forgot the trick to do that but I think they probe for cold sensing spots since there are 4 kinds of sensory nerves and they are never in the same spot. Find one kind that doesn't go "ouch" and you can stick a needle in there without causing any pain.
And the length of the needle doesn't matter at all since only the top layers of the skin can feel pain. Once penetrated you won't feel the needle no matter how deep it goes.
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