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Post by silverdragon on Dec 3, 2012 6:58:59 GMT
{The following posts were moved to their own thread from here, as they were getting off topic; citadelofmyths.freeforums.net/index.cgi?board=historical&action=display&thread=258&page=1 - CM}
{Edit:- CM, Yes, I suppose it has got to a separate Myth and deserves its own thread... apologies for creating Topic Drift, but heck, if we all stayed on topic in every thread interesting things like this would get lost? thanks for separating it then, I suppose its probably a good idea to do so with all cases of Topic Drift....SD1}Think Gasket, and Piston ring, and you have wadding....... The wadding did indeed seal the powder in and stop it rolling about, but the big heavy cannon balls cold never fit completely right or air-tight into the barrel... Brass Monkey weather, the barrels of Bronze and Brass would shrink, the Iron balls not as much, which is where the phrase cold enough to freeze the (cannon) balls off a brass monkey comes from, as the rack that holds the balls in place was Brass....and called a Monkey.... but in warm weather, there could be quite a gap between ball and cannon wall. Back to the wadding?... It helped keep the ball air-tight as it left the barrel. What was it?... Old rope, sails, whatever, treated in the way that it was shredded up to make a rough cotton wool type substance then mashed into a pad of "about right" for each shot. As the ship progressed, old rope being replaced would be recycled, along with old sails, but, as stated, you needed to be match fit from day one of leaving port, so there was always a certain amount you had to carry anyway. Going back into port, anything left would be used for the last few days to "Spit shine" the boat, the wadding could be used quite effectively as a scrubbing pad as well. This is all suggested by "Live" archaeology, people taking the actual tall ships out of port and sailing them as only they can, no support, just what they have to hand. Amazing what you discover that way... the necessary is the mother of invention?...
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Post by memeengine on Dec 3, 2012 7:35:24 GMT
...which is where the phrase cold enough to freeze the (cannon) balls off a brass monkey comes from, as the rack that holds the balls in place was Brass....and called a Monkey.... That's a myth. The shot racks on-board ship were simply carved wood, in some cases these were just indentations in existing timbers. Brass racks would just have been unnecessary extra weight. Likewise. on shore, there's no evidence that brass shot racks were widely used (if at all) and nothing to prove (if they did exist) that they were called a "monkey". |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 3, 2012 7:53:38 GMT
Brass racks were carried by the "Flagships".
If you think "Executive trim car", you get what was going on... the "Posh" ships that the King or Admiral would travel on had a LOT of brass trimmings?....
Brass Monkey is an old word or phrase that has been in use since that time, and is generally accepted to be a storage rack.
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 3, 2012 9:05:29 GMT
Brass racks were carried by the "Flagships". If you think "Executive trim car", you get what was going on... the "Posh" ships that the King or Admiral would travel on had a LOT of brass trimmings?.... Brass Monkey is an old word or phrase that has been in use since that time, and is generally accepted to be a storage rack. There are zero references to a 'brass monkey' in any nautical books or dictionaries from any period. In fact the term 'brass money/monkeys' didn't even appear until around 1880 - which is long after smoothbore cannon stopped being used in ships - and originally was 'cold enough to freeze the tail off a brass monkey'. As noted, the shot racks on ships were indentations carved into beams next to the guns, even on the largest and most expensive vessels. The shot racks on HMS Victory are of this type, and this was a ship that was always intended (and used) as a flag-ship. |
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Post by freegan on Dec 3, 2012 9:35:37 GMT
In fact the term 'brass money/monkeys' didn't even appear until around 1880 - disagrees and has an earlier referenceThe term, though, does indeed refer to the far-eastern souvenirs of three wise monkeys, so it would seem that the naval reference is quite fanciful. From Wikipedia |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 4, 2012 9:24:00 GMT
So, it looks like we have a real life Myth in the discussion here alongside the original myth in the thread?...
BTW, as Wikapedia is a source made entirely from various authors contribution, it has been suggested many times that Wikapedia may not always be entirely correct....
I live with the attitude its an EXCELLENT reference source, and a bloody good place to start, but not "The last word" on anything......
I can only relate what I have been "Told", or found out, and obviously things get twisted with time...
So what WAS a brass monkey then?...
Some Digging I have done.
I enter these as discussion points, not as "I MUST be right" points as ever, 'cos I acknowledge my own right to be wrong, I am after all only Human?....
Powder Monkey:
Known military term.... perhaps the use of Monkey in this may be the origin of the term, but its used for the younger boys on the crew who's job it was in times of battle to run to and from the magazine to the guns with munitions....
Magazine being the "room" or Locker , often non ferrous metal lined, where they kept the powder.
.... Non ferrous to keep down on stray sparks....
I also believe that this brass lined room was copied from the LAND based fortresses at the time, not all ships had brass or Copper lined rooms as that would be too heavy, but the larger ships of the line would have kept the powder in Brass lockers inside the magazine?...
I enter that we must consider land based fortresses perhaps first not as an alternative, because it seems that all ship based gun decks were copying the exact technology used on dry land and making allowances fr ships moving around a lot.
The Powder monkeys wouldnt be doing one shot at a time, as the Guns could quite possibly fire at a faster rate than those lads could run?...
So, it has been suggested that there was a smaller storage area close to the guns that would be filled by the runners.
Made of Brass, or brass lined, because brass does not create sparks?...
I am doubting this particular one myself, as I have not actually seen one of these brass lined lockers?.... but then again, brass being valuable, perhaps it has been robbed out over time.
But as it has been suggested, I thought it apt to mention, just in case someone else has....
Along with that, it has also been suggested that the containers the Lads used to carry powder from that magazine to the guns were also made of Brass, again with the sparks thing, more or less a flask....
To prevent the powder spilling, the cannon ball was carried on top of the flask....?... perhaps with wadding to seal the flask under the ball?... again, I am not absolutely sure on this, but was that flask called a Monkey in reference to it belonging to the powder monkey?...
The actual truth behind the rumours/adaptations of the language may be lost in time.
The Statuettes of the three wise monkeys with one holding his genitalia, yes, they DID exist, what came first, those statues or the saying, and if in actual fact the statues were done that way to reflect the humour of the saying?... also lost with time?....
I must also state not all of my reference is available on the web, as some articles are from Library books Pre-Internet, this rumour and saying has been in discussion for decades.
It is well accepted that the storage racks INSIDE the magazine, the brass lined room, could often also be made of Brass.
At no point did I suggest a storage rack on the deck of the ship?.....
As far as I can find out, the "Monkey" was a term used, perhaps not world wide, for a storage rack.
As WELL as the term for the kid who did the running....
What we these days would call a Go-for, or Gopher, dependant on pronunciation.
It has been disputed..... of course....
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 4, 2012 11:25:37 GMT
Magazines were not lined with brass, but with tin - which was also used to line any rooms where dry goods were meant to be stored. The entrance consisted of a double pair of leather 'doors' that were soaked with water while preparing for battle. (These were known as 'fearnought screens'). Light was provided by a lamp in a small room (or rooms) to either side of the magazine shining through very thick glass windows.
'Powder Monkey' was not a universal term, as powder-boy seems to have been used more often. Both are misleading as while the younger boys on a ship did carry shot and powder to the guns they were assisted by other crewmen who were not part of a guncrew - and who could be a lot older.
It also became something of a tradition for passengers (at least the male ones) to help with this task on smaller ships, and in a couple of recorded cases female passengers carried powder and shot - and in one case measured and loaded the powder.
It appears that the powder 'boys' were assigned several guns, and brought up enough powder to fire each gun once or maybe twice. Powder wasn't usually stored on the gundeck, especially not in battle, due to the risk of an explosion. Shot was likewise brought up in bulk, but in larger amounts and less often.
Guns were usually kept loaded with one full charge, with pre-loaded cartridges stored in the powder room. During battles the gunner and his mates were usually kept busy below decks measuring and loading fresh cartridges for the guns. I've not heard of many cases where the guns were silent due to lack of shot or powder, so clearly this system was more than good enough (at least on men of war) to keep up with demand.
Typically shot racks seem to have held 10 round-shot, plus one in the gun. Since the maximum rate of fire for a good crew was some 3 rounds in five minutes - a rate of fire no crew could sustain for any great length of time - there was a good 15 minutes or so of shot at hand. It also seems that members of the guncrews would or could run off to get extra shot from the shot lockers (which were not near the magazine) if they ran low. Guncrews included a boarder, trimmer* and fireman who's duties could require them to leave their gun at any time. So having a man or two 'run off' to find shot was not critical.
(*The trimmer worked the ships sails as needed during battle)
Powder charges were not stored in metal containers until around 1820. Copper containers were used from around this date to store the ready (pre-loaded) charges in the magazine so they would not spoil or be eaten by rats. But the charges were carried to the guns in their leather of fabric bags not in the metal cases.
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Post by freegan on Dec 4, 2012 14:24:39 GMT
Perhaps this site holds the clue to a naval origin of the original phrase "cold enough to freeze the tail off a brass monkey". This site implies the probable usage of "brass monkey" to refer to a brass (or bronze) cannon. |
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Post by memeengine on Dec 4, 2012 19:19:47 GMT
I've a few problems with that as an origin for the phrase. Firstly, the carronade was only invented in the 1770s and so is in the wrong time period to be the "monkey" of the 1650's.
Secondly, the tiller ("tail") only appeared on the earliest versions of the carronade, it was quickly replaced by a broad curved handle (during the late 1780's) and in the final stage of evolution, the handle was removed completely (by the start of the French Revolutionary War.) It seems doubtful that the phrase would have had time to become common currency in the brief lifespan of these early examples.
Finally, these early "tailed" carronades were produced by the Carron Iron Company, which, as their name suggests, made their guns from iron and not brass.
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 4, 2012 19:56:34 GMT
The carronade entered use in 1779, and was originally designed as a small, lightweight but large calibre gun that could be worked by a handful of men* in the merchant service.
Naturally it took the Royal Navy about five seconds to see the potential of the weapon. While Brigs and Sloops were and had been limited to 4 or 6 pound cannon, they could now carry 12 pound carronades. Like all new weapons there were several ideas as to how they were best deployed, and at one point there was serious consideration about arming line ships entirely with them. But eventually they settled down into the secondary weapons for frigates and above, and the primary weapons for anything smaller**
The reason for carronades becoming secondary weapons was short range, a habit of tipping over when fired and worst of all the need to site them very carefully to avoid accidentally setting fire to your own.
The carronade design was only possible due to improvements in iron working and casting techniques made over the preceding century or so. Better and stronger iron allowed the construction of thinner barrels, which lowered the weight significantly.
Traditionally the best guns had been made of brass/bronze for the reasons given in an earlier post. However by the mid 1700's iron working had closed the quality gap between bronze and iron cannon - and the latter had significant advantages if the guns were fired for any length of time. By the late 1700's iron guns were just as, if not more, reliable than bronze guns while being considerably cheaper***
(*A six pound cannon needed at least four men to work effectively. A 12 pound carronade could be worked by two men in a pinch.)
(**There were exceptions. HMS Speedy (1801) was a Brig armed with 4 pound cannon. HMS Surprise (1798) was a frigate armed with 24 pound carronades - although the Surprise was a small frigate, and not that much larger than the USS Wasp sloop circa 1812)
(***Cost was a major consideration. The average frigate of 1793 carried 36 18 pound cannon - not including chase guns or those guns on the weather deck. This was more and heavier guns than most armies lugged around with them and the Royal Navy had almost 200 ships of this type in service at this date....)
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Post by freegan on Dec 5, 2012 11:44:36 GMT
I've a few problems with that as an origin for the phrase. Firstly, the carronade was only invented in the 1770s and so is in the wrong time period to be the "monkey" of the 1650's. |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 6, 2012 9:27:17 GMT
So Monkeys Tail?.... Yes that makes sense if it looks like some form of Tail. I am investigating other early uses of "Monkey" as a description in English Language at this time to see if any of it is relevant.... So far, amongst many others.... Monkey is Cockney Rhyming Slang is £500. Monkey Wrench... an adjustable spanner ..... This looks interesting.... If the spanner is for adjusting Monkeys, then if you freeze the nuts off..........   I also find that the word Monkey has been around almost since the invention of the actual word its self as something that is multi-dexterous?... can be used for more than one task.... I am wondering.... I must investigate more, was a Brass Monkey possibly a brass wrench used on board ships... hence freeze the nuts on a brass monkey may be ice that stops the wrench being adjustable?.... Why Brass?... inert, doesnt Rust, I know they used brass tools on ships.... Has the phrase been altered over time?... Obviously like everything else, plausible to confirmed. Heck, we STILL dont know what Stone Henge was ACTUALLY built for.... (DONT topic drift that one please.... lets stay with Brass Monkeys here?... |
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Post by rikkochet on Dec 12, 2012 17:09:14 GMT
If I remember correctly a brass rod a foot long will expand to 12.012" if its temperature is raised 100 degrees F. Iron expands rougly half as much as brass with the same temperature increase.
Little likelihood of anyone surviving on a ship if the temperature increased enough to cause the shot to roll off the racks.
When I went on board HMS Victory I had the fortune to be with an American Navy Commander, and we got to see parts of the ship that were closed to the general public - a sort of "You Colonials never had anything like this" tour.
The magazine was being used as a junk store at the time, but the remains of the copper sheathing which had lined the magazine were clearly visible. Remains, because apparently much of it had been 'acquired' and turned into ornaments after the ship was finally laid up.
Silver, the Henge is actually where the Egyptians dumped the surplus blocks after they built the pyramids - there used to be a 'No fly tipping' notice there, but as usual it was put up too late.
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