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Post by silverdragon on Dec 9, 2012 7:16:50 GMT
Can BIG truck stop as fast as a Car.
(Or a Bus, Light Van, Tipper wagon, etc...)
I know the answer, of course, and I suspect the denizens of this board would know as well, but as "Popular Belief" amongst other drivers we all encounter says Yes it Can, is this worth the discussion as to why it may make a good show piece for the MB's to do as a sort of public education thing to dispel popular MISS-Conception that we can throw a big anchor out the back door in emergencies?....
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Post by c64 on Dec 10, 2012 17:54:25 GMT
It depends on road conditions and brake technology.
A modern truck with the latest brake technology stops faster than a classic car. Also heavy trucks can stop a lot better on soft ground by sinking in the wheels.
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Post by the light works on Dec 10, 2012 18:20:48 GMT
in optimum conditions, a fully loaded heavy hauler can stop as fast as a car in optimum conditions, but there is a LOT more strain on the hardware. also, conditions are rarely optimum.
this is not to say you can pull out in front of a truck with as little space as you pull out in front of a car - you should not be pulling out in front of the car, either.
the bottom line in this comes down to the lugnuts rule. the more lugnuts, the more damage it will do to you, and I have seen trucks with more lug nuts on ONE wheel than some cars have on all four.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 11, 2012 10:10:17 GMT
For consideration...
Loads.
I know which loads I can brake hard with, and which loads will pass through the cab as they resist Braking.....
20 ton of manufactured well-secured metal girders with good tie down points will not jump ship....
(well not if I tie it down anyway... if in doubt, throw another strap on it...)
20 tons of raw "I" beam, or steel Pipe, doesnt matter how many chains you throw over, will slide in the right conditions.....
The Bigger the Truck, the heavier the Load, the more space I give out front?...
Liquid freight....
Drive with extreme care, I HATE braking hard with Liquids, you never know what is going to happen with them.
You can make an educated guess, but there will always be the one time you are wrong?....
I say all that because it doesnt matter how fast the truck can stop if the Load is not going to stop at the same time?....
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Post by the light works on Dec 11, 2012 14:59:41 GMT
It has probably relaxed, but our carriers used to be required to have cab guards sufficient to stop whatever was going to shift - and in the case of a load like steel pipe, the pipe was to be loaded against the cab guard on the front of the trailer.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 13, 2012 10:59:40 GMT
With or Without "headboards", steel pipe, in emergency braking situations, WILL shift.....
20 ton of Pipe will effectively look at your headboard and laugh.
If the chains snap, they are fast-forwarding, whatever you try... if you armour up the headboard, it gets to a stage where the armour makes the trailer too heavy to carry the pipe?...
And just when you though nothing could go wrong......
Yesterday, the M6 in Birmingham was shut, a Tanker carrying Hydrogen Chloride had a blow-out that resulted in a trailer fire, 10 people sent to hospital with inhalation breathing issues, some of them were the Fire-fighters.....
I am sure the driver was well aware and taking the greatest of precautions, but even then, sh(-deleted) happens?...
I wish them a speedy recovery, hopefully they will all be out for Christmas?...
I do not know who the driver was at this time, but I probably know him by sight, I hope he is OK....
At this time, I am happy to report that my Dangerous Goods licence has lapsed completely, and I am not in any way tempted to renew....
I have given up sitting 10 ft away from a ticking time bomb.
I first heard this on Radio, and as they didnt give full details, I feared BLEVE.... it didnt get that bad, thankfully, but the did shut the whole section of motorway and a half-mile exclusion zone was put in place and evacuated just in case......
Reports of up to 10 mile tailbacks.
I was "local", so well out of the way.
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Post by c64 on Dec 13, 2012 12:59:35 GMT
It has probably relaxed, but our carriers used to be required to have cab guards sufficient to stop whatever was going to shift - and in the case of a load like steel pipe, the pipe was to be loaded against the cab guard on the front of the trailer. That's how it should be done. In Germany, it's illegal to drive a truck if the cargo isn't loaded tight against the cab guard, sides and rear of the trailer. Also the cab guard needs to be strong enough for the cargo. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 13, 2012 16:39:20 GMT
right. loaded tight against the cab guard. that gives it less chance to build kinetic energy.
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Post by c64 on Dec 14, 2012 13:32:25 GMT
right. loaded tight against the cab guard. that gives it less chance to build kinetic energy. That's the version of an observer inside the truck. For an observer outside the truck, the cargo has all its kinetic energy from the beginning. Then the cargo releases its kinetic energy "slowly" with the slowing truck instead of keeping all the kinetic energy and release it all in one single impact. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 14, 2012 14:41:24 GMT
isn't it the observer inside the truck who has the most vested interest?
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 22, 2012 6:25:48 GMT
(quote)In Germany, it's illegal to drive a truck if the cargo isn't loaded tight against the cab guard
Shows how much THEY know....
Ok, I do "IDW", Irregular dimension and weight, I also have a honours degree in Rope-and-sheet, the dark arts of getting a Tarp (tarpaulin) roped into place that DOESN'T flap about like some ponce's handkerchief as soon as you do more than 20 mph....
..You all seen that, the suitcase wrapped n a plastic bag on the top shelf (Roof-rack) acting as a parachute on Motorways highways free-ways and the driver wondering why he's only getting 5 to the gallon?....
Some loads you just CAN NOT slap against the headboard.
Like expensive machinery with important control systems on the outside?...
Or Vehicles even... they get chained into place, and NOT against the headboard, for no matter how hard you chain them, the bits you chain to are usually suspension bits as they are designed chunky anyway and should take the strain... and you dont mark the paintwork when you do those bits....
So vehicles will move slightly in transport, they can not be put against anything, 'cos that marks the bright-work, and customer complains....
Same with Machinery etc.
I have had standing arguments with Transport managers about Tie-Down points on things to be transported that have no such tie-down point and how the hell can I put a strap or chain over it without damaging paintwork?...
Need to talk to Customer and ask where we can tie down to..... or can we use a BETTER point that what they have made available......
Thats part of IDW.
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Post by the light works on Dec 22, 2012 7:01:40 GMT
(quote)In Germany, it's illegal to drive a truck if the cargo isn't loaded tight against the cab guard Shows how much THEY know.... Ok, I do "IDW", Irregular dimension and weight, I also have a honours degree in Rope-and-sheet, the dark arts of getting a Tarp (tarpaulin) roped into place that DOESN'T flap about like some ponce's handkerchief as soon as you do more than 20 mph.... ..You all seen that, the suitcase wrapped n a plastic bag on the top shelf (Roof-rack) acting as a parachute on Motorways highways free-ways and the driver wondering why he's only getting 5 to the gallon?.... Some loads you just CAN NOT slap against the headboard. Like expensive machinery with important control systems on the outside?... Or Vehicles even... they get chained into place, and NOT against the headboard, for no matter how hard you chain them, the bits you chain to are usually suspension bits as they are designed chunky anyway and should take the strain... and you dont mark the paintwork when you do those bits.... So vehicles will move slightly in transport, they can not be put against anything, 'cos that marks the bright-work, and customer complains.... Same with Machinery etc. I have had standing arguments with Transport managers about Tie-Down points on things to be transported that have no such tie-down point and how the hell can I put a strap or chain over it without damaging paintwork?... Need to talk to Customer and ask where we can tie down to..... or can we use a BETTER point that what they have made available...... Thats part of IDW. well, those aren't pipes, then are they? FWIW, I anchored a 20 ton fire tender in about its own length from 30 MPH, the other day. actually felt more solid braking than my work truck. |
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Post by c64 on Dec 22, 2012 18:37:07 GMT
Some loads you just CAN NOT slap against the headboard. Like expensive machinery with important control systems on the outside?... Or Vehicles even... they get chained into place, and NOT against the headboard, for no matter how hard you chain them, the bits you chain to are usually suspension bits as they are designed chunky anyway and should take the strain... and you dont mark the paintwork when you do those bits.... So vehicles will move slightly in transport, they can not be put against anything, 'cos that marks the bright-work, and customer complains.... Same with Machinery etc. I have had standing arguments with Transport managers about Tie-Down points on things to be transported that have no such tie-down point and how the hell can I put a strap or chain over it without damaging paintwork?... Need to talk to Customer and ask where we can tie down to..... or can we use a BETTER point that what they have made available...... Thats part of IDW. Lazy excuses! If you fail to properly secure your cargo, you may not drive on German roads. Especially if the cargo (e.g. machine) is fragile, then you need to put it into a proper shipping crate with proper protection. It's not the fault of other drivers you endanger with improperly secured cargo if you don't know how to do your job properly! Watch how our police checks out trucks: First comes a safety inspection of the wheels and brakes, then they look for obvious structural problems. Then they look at the cargo. The first trucks are all good. The truck at 4:20 had failed and the cargo had to be reloaded. As you can see, loading safely IS possible. At 5:30, the police officers tell the driver how many tension belts are required and where they have to be put. |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 26, 2012 9:35:05 GMT
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Post by the light works on Dec 26, 2012 16:20:27 GMT
but again, yoou are drifting away from the discussion of stuff which is to be loaded against the cab guard - which is things that have no hard points or front to secure the chain to. those things that under hard braking can slither and creep, or even break loose and slip forwards, and the cab guard stops that before it starts.
of course if you bang into something, things may bend and break, but that's always the case, ain't it?
wildest load positioning I saw going down the road was a truck that the last thing on the flatbed was a small pickup, and it was secured with the centerline of the rear axle dead center over the sharp edge of the back of the trailer. that's as in half of the back tires had nothing but air under them, and from the position of the chains it was done on purpose. not sure what the goal was, but he had more faith in tie down chains than I do.
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Post by c64 on Dec 26, 2012 18:50:48 GMT
You simply refuse to drive stuff which isn't loaded right. And if it can't be loaded right, it need to be wrapped and boxed until it can be loaded right to be transported safely.
Now Imagine telling your arguments to the relatives to someone you had killed with dropped cargo!
Only 2 months or so earlier I had been sitting in a traffic jam caused by a truck which had dropped some minor cargo - it just happened to kill a motorcycle driver so one lane was blocked by a truck, the other lane with a dead human.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 27, 2012 8:06:49 GMT
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Post by the light works on Dec 27, 2012 14:59:12 GMT
a load that has no other means to prevent it shifting forward, yes. it is mandated to load it tight against the headboard, to prevent it shifting forward. a load that does have other means to prevent it shifting forward, no. it gets secured in such a manner as to prevent it shifting.
here, if you leave cargo on the road, you are cited for an improperly secured load. their proof is that it didn't stay on board.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 28, 2012 8:19:27 GMT
TLW, how does that work if its a major road accident and there are bits of the wagon all over the road as well?.... ;D
Otherwise, if it falls of then it cant have been secured properly... kinda sensible really...
In case anyone is wondering, there are loads out there where you can not secure properly at all.
These are specialised transport issues... kinda like that lot that go move house, by actually moving the whole house?....
How would you ratchet strap down a house anyway?....
Those loads are done slowly, of course.
I often wondered exactly where would you put ratchet straps over say something like the Space Shuttle... to think Tie-Down points were a major part of its design would be ironic... built to be the fastest of anything man-made, but starts its journey as the slowest you can get away with for the first mile?....
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Post by the light works on Dec 28, 2012 14:42:35 GMT
quite obviously, if the spill is caused by the destruction of the carrier, then that is taken into consideration.
the test case here was one in which an offset head on collision resulted in breaking a boat trailer loose from the tow vehicle. due to the fact that the collision actually broke all of the components that would normally keep the trailer attached, indicated that the trailer was secured to all acceptable standards.
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