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Post by OziRiS on Dec 24, 2012 1:12:59 GMT
DISCLAIMER: The Citadel is a public forum and is not affiliated with the Discovery Network or the producers of MythBusters. By posting ideas in this forum you acknowledge and agree that others including the producers of MythBusters may read and subsequently use your ideas (or may coincidentally develop their own similar ideas). So, you understand that by posting that you will not be entitled to be referenced or compensated for any ideas you post if they are used by someone else including MythBusters. Read more: citadelofmyths.freeforums.net/index.cgi?board=movie&action=display&thread=197#ixzz2Fvbk2tT1This idea came a couple of days ago when I was bored and found an old CSI PC game (CSI: Dark Motives from 2004). I installed it, started playing and when I came to this particular case, I couldn't help but wonder. It was a case where an actress, rehearsing a scene of a play on stage with another actress, apparantly got shot to death by the other actress with a gun that was supposed to shoot blanks. The gun in question was a .22 revolver and when the fatal bullet was recovered from the victim, it too was indeed a .22. At first it seems there's no other logical explanation than the .22 revolver accidentally being loaded with a real bullet, since there are no other weapons in the theater prop room that fire .22's and it seems that no one else was in the theater with the two actors. There are other weapons in the prop room though. Among them, a gun rack with .30 cal rifles (looks like M1 Garands, but they're never specifically called that in the game). One rifle is missing from the rack. Turns out that the actress was shot from somewhere else in the theater and here's the kicker: The murder weapon was actually the .30 cal rifle. How is that possible? Well, as the story goes, the .22 projectile was removed from its casing and encased in a bar of soap. The soap was then cut and shaped into a larger projectile form, loaded into a .30 cal casing and then put on ice until it was needed. When the cooled soap bullet was fired from the .30 cal rifle, the soap was hard enough that the projectile was propelled from the weapon, keeping its trajectory, but soft enough that, once it left the barrel, there was no soap left and the .22 bullet remained on its course, killing the victim when it hit her. This instantly reminded me of the ice and meat bullet myths from way back. In those myths, the aim of the shooter was to make the bullet "disappear" after it had hit. In this case, the shooter attempted to throw off police by firing a .22 cal round from a weapon that was chambered for a .30 cal round, without modifying the weapon itself. I know that conversion kits exist for many weapon types, especially handguns, where you more or less just change out the entire top slide mechanism to allow the gun to fire a different caliber bullet than it was originally made for and this might have been easier for the shooter to do. But the conversion kit leaves behind easily identifiable, hard to dispose of parts. Soap doesn't, so I get the idea of why he opted for this solution. But is it possible? Some other details that might be important: 1. The victim had already "been shot" with the blank .22 revolver by the other actress and was lying on the floor when the fatal shot was fired. She was supposed to lie still there for at least 3-5 minutes while the other actress sang a song. In other words: She was as stationary a target as a shooter could ever hope for. 2. The victim was shot in the chest at an upward 30 degree angle from a balcony that was about a 100 feet away. When standing on the stage, looking out into the room, the balcony was the closest one on the left and the victim was lying on her side, facing the room, head pointing away from said balcony. 3. The .30 cal rifle was apparantly silenced. There was talk of a home made silencer, but one was never found so that's fuzzy at best. 4. There was no trace of the soap on the bullet or anywhere in the victim's wound. |
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Post by OziRiS on Dec 24, 2012 1:28:20 GMT
BTW, I was actually thinking that this could be part of a themed show about movie and TV forensics. CSI has been used before on the show, but that's not the only source of questionable forensic methods in Hollywood. Feel free to either comment on my idea or provide your own, but remember: This is MythBusters. There's no point in posting things that you already know to be true or false. Try to come up with stuff that seems doubtful, but maybe not entirely impossible. Those are the ones that are fun to test  |
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Post by the light works on Dec 24, 2012 1:38:09 GMT
a plastic sabot would serve the purpose much better. in fact, I have a few rounds of ammunition that has subcaliber slugs saboted into .308 cartridges.
the sticking point in this is that a .22 LR cartridge is supersonic - so a .22 slug saboted into a .30 caliber cartridge will probably also be supersonic.
the other sticking point is that most .30 caliber rifles will also be supersonic, and as such they are typically not made with a fitting for securing a suppressor (silencer)
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Post by OziRiS on Dec 24, 2012 9:59:32 GMT
I think the idea actually was to make a type of sabot out of the soap. But good point. I wasn't aware that such things existed already. Can they be store bought or do you make them yourself? In regards to the myth, I'm thinking that if they can be bought, it would leave a paper trail and if you have to make it yourself, perhaps our shooter knew of the concept, but didn't know how to make one in plastic and improvised with the soap.
As for the silencer, it's implied that it's a home made, one shot disposable deal, likely made from a plastic bottle or something like that. I've heard of people sticking a large potato on the muzzle of a rifle to obtain a sound suppressing effect.
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Post by the light works on Dec 24, 2012 14:33:00 GMT
I think the idea actually was to make a type of sabot out of the soap. But good point. I wasn't aware that such things existed already. Can they be store bought or do you make them yourself? In regards to the myth, I'm thinking that if they can be bought, it would leave a paper trail and if you have to make it yourself, perhaps our shooter knew of the concept, but didn't know how to make one in plastic and improvised with the soap. As for the silencer, it's implied that it's a home made, one shot disposable deal, likely made from a plastic bottle or something like that. I've heard of people sticking a large potato on the muzzle of a rifle to obtain a sound suppressing effect. store bought. of course, it isn't the same slug as a .22 slug; so it would have to be improvised, anyway to make it look like the victim was shot with a misloaded blank firing pistol. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Jan 1, 2013 16:27:21 GMT
a plastic sabot would serve the purpose much better. in fact, I have a few rounds of ammunition that has subcaliber slugs saboted into .308 cartridges. the sticking point in this is that a .22 LR cartridge is supersonic - so a .22 slug saboted into a .30 caliber cartridge will probably also be supersonic. the other sticking point is that most .30 caliber rifles will also be supersonic, and as such they are typically not made with a fitting for securing a suppressor (silencer) The super sonic crack is not a problem. Since the killer (or whoever made the load for the killer) is already hand loading a .22 bullet with its soap Sabot, into the .30 caliber case. It can be "expected" that the powder load would be adjusted to make to make the load fire at sub sonic speed and eliminate the super sonic crack and at the same time making the weapon "easier" to suppress with improvised silencers. As a side note, .22 Long Rifle is not the only choice of .22 ammo, especially when dealing with revolvers. There is .22 Short, .22 Long and some others. The bullet type and weight used in the sabot, would have to match one capable of being fired from the pistol. |
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Post by the light works on Jan 1, 2013 16:42:22 GMT
a plastic sabot would serve the purpose much better. in fact, I have a few rounds of ammunition that has subcaliber slugs saboted into .308 cartridges. the sticking point in this is that a .22 LR cartridge is supersonic - so a .22 slug saboted into a .30 caliber cartridge will probably also be supersonic. the other sticking point is that most .30 caliber rifles will also be supersonic, and as such they are typically not made with a fitting for securing a suppressor (silencer) The super sonic crack is not a problem. Since the killer (or whoever made the load for the killer) is already hand loading a .22 bullet with its soap Sabot, into the .30 caliber case. It can be "expected" that the powder load would be adjusted to make to make the load fire at sub sonic speed and eliminate the super sonic crack and at the same time making the weapon "easier" to suppress with improvised silencers. As a side note, .22 Long Rifle is not the only choice of .22 ammo, especially when dealing with revolvers. There is .22 Short, .22 Long and some others. The bullet type and weight used in the sabot, would have to match one capable of being fired from the pistol. well, when you put it that way, you would have to allow for the fact that most stage guns used in theatres are chambered to fire crimped blanks, and the barrels are either blocked or solid to prevent accidents. you MIGHT be able to fit a bb cap into it, but you might not even be able to chamber that. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Jan 1, 2013 18:49:32 GMT
Though the OP clearly stated the gun in question was a .22 revolver that is evidentially capable of being loaded with live ammunition, by accident. Which rules out it being a "blank gun"' , chambered solely for .22 caliber blanks.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jan 1, 2013 20:16:24 GMT
So what we are really talking about here is a 'soap-sabot', which is probably a better name for it as well.
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Post by User Unavailable on Jan 1, 2013 20:56:58 GMT
So what we are really talking about here is a 'soap-sabot', which is probably a better name for it as well. Pretty much. I am not sure why (as in the OP), the soap sabot would have to be kept on ice.  If the soap is going to be tough enough to perform as desired when cooled, it should also work at "room temp". The soap does raise the question, of how does one make sure none stays on the bullet as trace evidence and how does one explain the small quantities of soap in the rifle barrel, when forensics does check out the weapon. |
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Post by rick4070 on Jan 2, 2013 17:49:33 GMT
I'd also be wondering about there being no rifling marks on the .22 bullet after it was recovered from the body.
And, I'd be wondering if soap would grip the rifling in the rifles bore enough to impart spin on the .22 bullet, after all, the shot was fired from 100 feet away.
Also, having pulled bullets from .22 rimfire cartridges in the past, it is hard to do without deforming the bullet somewhat.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 2, 2013 18:40:51 GMT
Though the OP clearly stated the gun in question was a .22 revolver that is evidentially capable of being loaded with live ammunition, by accident. Which rules out it being a "blank gun"' , chambered solely for .22 caliber blanks. Good catch Marine It's clearly stated, as the case goes on and the guy handling the props is questioned, that he makes his own blanks from live rounds, making the accidental loading of a live round into the gun a perfectly plausible scenario. About the ice: It's never made perfectly clear why the shooter felt the need for that, but if I had to make a guess, I'd say it might have something to do with the process of shaping the soap. I'm guessing there was some heating involved in getting the soap sabot to take its final form and soap that's been heated has a tendency to "melt" and lose it's shape more easily. I've seen this many times with bars of soap being left on windowsills in the summer. Whether ice makes any difference with that, I don't know. For all we know, it may just have been an unneccesary extra precaution the shooter felt he had to take for some reason. It's never directly claimed in the game that "the ice does this and that". It's just stated that the shooter had the bullet on ice until he needed it. About the missing soap residue: This may just have been a brain fart from the designers of the game. I'm pretty sure something would have been left behind. If not on the slug in the body, then certainly on the gun that fired it. There's only one way to find out  |
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Post by unavailable on Jan 2, 2013 18:41:59 GMT
I'd also be wondering about there being no rifling marks on the .22 bullet after it was recovered from the body. And, I'd be wondering if soap would grip the rifling in the rifles bore enough to impart spin on the .22 bullet, after all, the shot was fired from 100 feet away. Also, having pulled bullets from .22 rimfire cartridges in the past, it is hard to do without deforming the bullet somewhat. Rifling marks are no problem as you could use a bullet previously fired into a medium that didn't deform it such as water. The big problem is the soap sabot. Soap would be much to soft to load into the .30-'06 case used by the M1 and the twist rate of the M1 is 1-in-10, much faster than the typical 1-in-16 of a .22LR. There is no way soap would stand up to the rotational forces exerted by the barrel rifling. Accuracy would be virtually non-existent. |
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 2, 2013 18:59:56 GMT
I don't know if it makes any difference, but keep in mind that the rifle in question is never called anything but "30. caliber rifle" in the game. To me, it looks a lot like an M1, but it's never called that specifically. It's not even called a .30-'06 at any point, just a .30 caliber.
The questions that need to be answered here are:
1. Is it possible to remove a .22 cal. bullet without making tool marks on it, encase it in soap and load it into a .30 cal. rifle cartridge?
2. If so, can it be fired from a .30 cal. rifle?
3. If so, would you be able to hit a stationary target from a distance of 100 feet? (That distance is IIRC never mentioned specifically, so give or take 10-20 feet if my depth perception has been slightly off)
4. If so, would it be a lethal hit?
5. If all of the above things prove correct, is it then also correct that there are no traces of the soap to be found on the slug in the body, in the wound tract or on the weapon itself?
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Post by rick4070 on Jan 2, 2013 19:23:16 GMT
1. Yes, it would be possible, especially as how it was mentioned that a .22 bullet could be recovered from water, the rifling marks would be there.
Pulling a bullet from an unfired cartridge, because of the way that the case mouth is very firmly crimped into the heel, would be hard to do without leaving marks.
Centering the bullet in the soap might be a little difficult.
Loading it into a .30 cal. case would be fairly easy.
2. It could be fired from the .30 cal. rifle.
3. Because of the soap being so soft, the bullet would not be stabilized, and also would probably pass down the barrel at an angle, (kind of like a golf ball going through a downspout.)
I don't think it would be any kind of accurate at 25 feet, let alone 100 feet.
4. I don't think the accuracy would be there to assure a precise, lethal hit.
5. soap residue would be in the rifle bore and probably the wound track, and most likely trace elements would still be on the bullet.
For instance, bullet lube for cast bullets stays in the grease grooves, and is still there after shooting various targets including game.
Some of the bullet lubes like SPG are really soft, even softer than soap, and some are hard, like wax, and they all seem to be present on recovered bullets.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 6, 2013 0:27:55 GMT
1. Yes, it would be possible, especially as how it was mentioned that a .22 bullet could be recovered from water, the rifling marks would be there. Pulling a bullet from an unfired cartridge, because of the way that the case mouth is very firmly crimped into the heel, would be hard to do without leaving marks. Centering the bullet in the soap might be a little difficult. Loading it into a .30 cal. case would be fairly easy. I'm sure it would be easy to load it into the .30 cal casing, but I'm not certain it would be so easy to get it to stay there. I think it would be very delicate to handle without breaking off the soap projectile. 2. It could be fired from the .30 cal. rifle. Again, I think loading it into the rifle is going to be a very delicate procedure. The soap being so soft, the projectile might break off at any point. If you're lucky enough to not break it before you place it in the chamber, it might break off when you push the bolt into position. 3. Because of the soap being so soft, the bullet would not be stabilized, and also would probably pass down the barrel at an angle, (kind of like a golf ball going through a downspout.) I don't think it would be any kind of accurate at 25 feet, let alone 100 feet. 4. I don't think the accuracy would be there to assure a precise, lethal hit. I think you're spot on with these assumptions, but until someone tries it, although I have a good feeling that you're making them based on extensive knowledge of how guns work, they're still just assumptions. 5. soap residue would be in the rifle bore and probably the wound track, and most likely trace elements would still be on the bullet. For instance, bullet lube for cast bullets stays in the grease grooves, and is still there after shooting various targets including game. Some of the bullet lubes like SPG are really soft, even softer than soap, and some are hard, like wax, and they all seem to be present on recovered bullets. As I said earlier on, the claim was never made that soap residue wasn't there. There was just no option to check for it, which I thought was strange at the time. But again, it may just have been a brain fart from the writers. Something they forgot to consider. |
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Post by rick4070 on Jan 7, 2013 17:48:56 GMT
Why would it need to stick outside of the case neck?
The neck on most .30 cal. rifle cases is long enough that the nose of the soap covered bullet would be able to be flush with the end of the case neck if the bullet was pushed into the case neck.
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Post by the light works on Jan 7, 2013 17:54:31 GMT
I find myself thinking of a relatively hard soap like old school bath soap (I.E. Dial) in sewing we always used old slivers of that for marking, because it was durable, held its edge, left a clear mark, and "erased" with a steam iron. I think a sabot made of that might be more durable than the plastic sabots in my saboted ammunition.
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Post by OziRiS on Jan 7, 2013 18:33:36 GMT
Now we're getting somewhere! rick4070: Way to think outside the box! Or... Bullet casing, as it were You're completely right. Of course the soap doesn't have to stick out of the casing. That's just the way you usually see them, but no one ever said it HAD to be that way. Great catch @the light works: I know the kind you're talking about, but I actually always thought that was some kind of chalk That stuff may even be hard enough that it would retain its shape long enough to empart at least some sort of spin to the projectile. Good call |
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Post by the light works on Jan 7, 2013 18:38:20 GMT
They probably make a marking chalk that they sell, but we always used the soap.
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If the soap is going to be tough enough to perform as desired when cooled, it should also work at "room temp".