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Post by privatepaddy on Feb 4, 2013 8:52:25 GMT
Story goes ;D during World War II if the US forces needed a bridge in a hurry they would just keep pushing vehicles into a ravine till they had one. The blokes who told me this were a bunch of larrikins (all vets of the campaign) who didn't mind telling a yarn.
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Post by the light works on Feb 4, 2013 15:55:33 GMT
sounds fishy to me. a pile of vehicles does not make a very good bridge. although military doctrine does tend towards "do what you have to do to get the job done, because your life may depend on it"
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Post by privatepaddy on Feb 6, 2013 2:13:35 GMT
Historically it should be recorded somewhere, and is able to be tested using techniques used at the time. But yeah at the ime I thought there was a bit of leg pulling going on
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 7, 2013 10:29:56 GMT
What vehicles?.... "The ones you are driving"?.... Fine, so why are you driving it?... I will presume its needed.....
Broken vehicles?... yes, that makes sense, but I was also under the impression that scrap vehicles stayed where they were?.....
I can see how maybe a trailer bed would make a good "bridge" over say a narrow ravine...... But again, just how many trailers do you cart around "just in case"?...
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Post by privatepaddy on Feb 7, 2013 14:05:44 GMT
What vehicles?.... "The ones you are driving"?.... Fine, so why are you driving it?... I will presume its needed..... Broken vehicles?... yes, that makes sense, but I was also under the impression that scrap vehicles stayed where they were?..... I can see how maybe a trailer bed would make a good "bridge" over say a narrow ravine...... But again, just how many trailers do you cart around "just in case"?... Firstly we are talking testable myths, this perhaps is one. the Gentlemen in question told me that US forces if they needed to get across a ravine/obstacle would just drive/push vehicles into such obstacle. These vehicles would be standard US vehicles of the period. These were men from Kokoda Milne bay and later with their US allies Buna-Gona where the casualty rates were higher than at Guadalcanal. Just as I imagine you would not debate a story of a Parra from Arnhem, I did not debate these men even though I sorta thought they may be pulling my leg.
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Post by the light works on Feb 7, 2013 14:51:17 GMT
the catch-22 is, if you cannot get across the ravine, you have no use for the vehicles, either.
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Post by privatepaddy on Feb 7, 2013 15:17:12 GMT
the catch-22 is, if you cannot get across the ravine, you have no use for the vehicles, either. I can only imagine there was some advantage to be gained by such an action. I've looked several times for references. I am not entirely sure that this was not dealt with back on the old boards, there were some members back there that were really excellent with their knowledge of military history.
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Post by User Unavailable on Feb 7, 2013 17:54:34 GMT
Could vehicles be rolled into a ravine to make a crossing in an impromptu and hurried fashion? Yes, providing the ravine is not to large and the vehicle is placed correctly and the structure of the vehicle is strong enough to allow other vehicles to pass over it and is likely to require more prep than simply "rolling the vehicle" into the ravine. (dirt and logs are probably also going to be required) However, vehicles, when you have them are a precious item and it is highly unlikely for a useable vehicle to be thrown into a ravine (or multiple vehicles), simply because you're in a hurry. The link below has a lot of photos from the Pacific and shows that US and ANZAC troops were quit good at making use of trees/logs and other materials to bridge ravines, rivers and marshy areas. www.allworldwars.com/The-War-Against-Japan-Pictorial-Record.htmlNow, in support of this "myth", it is possible that temporary bridges were constructed that incorporated the use of vehicles, ie. temporary pontoon bridges across shallow streams to speed up the crossing process of both men and equipment, or the more likely use of a few vehicles to help support a temporary bridge, constructed specifically to speed things along. Such as this example from the USMC on Guadalcanal. www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-C-Guadalcanal.htmlPhoto courtesy of Col James A. Donovan, Jr. --------------------------- When the 5th Marines entered the jungle from the beachhead, and had to cross the steep banks of the Ilu River, 1st Marine Division engineers hastily constructed a bridge supported by amphibian tractors. Though heavily used, the bridge held up. "At 0641 on 7 August, Turner signalled his ships to "land the landing force." Just 28 minutes before, the heavy cruiser Quincy (CA-39) had begun shelling the landing beaches at Guadalcanal. The sun came up that fateful Friday at 0650, and the first landing craft carrying assault troops of the 5th Marines touched down at 0909 on Red Beach. To the men's surprise (and relief), no Japanese appeared to resist the landing. Hunt immediately moved his assault troops off the beach and into the surrounding jungle, waded the steep-banked Ilu River, and headed for the enemy airfield. The following 1st Marines were able to cross the Ilu on a bridge the engineers had hastily thrown up with an amphibian tractor bracing its middle. The silence was eerie and the absence of opposition was worrisome to me riflemen. The Japanese troops, most of whom were Korean laborers, had fled to the west, spooked by a week's B-17 bombardment, the pre-assault naval gunfire, and the sight of the ships offshore. The situation was not the same across Sealark. The Marines on Guadalcanal could hear faint rumbles of a firefight across the waters."
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Post by the light works on Feb 7, 2013 18:07:50 GMT
When I was a kid, the fire department brush rig was a military surplus dodge pickup, carrying two portable pumps. the standing order was if they needed water, and had to get the pumps to a remote creek to get it, to drive the pickup into the creek and worry about getting it out, later.
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Post by privatepaddy on Feb 10, 2013 13:47:51 GMT
Thanks for the links and information once again FM.
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Post by User Unavailable on Feb 11, 2013 3:07:53 GMT
Thanks for the links and information once again FM. You're welcome. My googlefu was good and I remembered the "Amtrac" bridge from Marine Corps history and managed to find a pic of it.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 11, 2013 19:20:56 GMT
. Broken vehicles?... yes, that makes sense, but I was also under the impression that scrap vehicles stayed where they were?..... Depends on how badly damaged the vehicle is. If there is reason to think that it can be repaired - or possibly even be taken apart for spare parts - then it will get moved. Even if the vehicle is a write off, chances are that you could still move it. In this case is it also possible that the vehicles being moved were captured enemy vehicles. Having taken a look at what would have been available, it seems that the some of the tracked landing vehicles in use by the USA in WW2 may have been suitable as the base for an infantry bridge. These had flat tops, over which you could probably place boards to create a bridge for infantry, possibly jeeps and maybe tanks (The Sherman only weighed 35 tons, and would have been narrow enough to navigate over such a bridge. The TLV were just over 3 metres wide, the Sherman just over two and a half metres wide.) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Vehicle_Tracked
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Post by the light works on Feb 11, 2013 19:31:07 GMT
. Broken vehicles?... yes, that makes sense, but I was also under the impression that scrap vehicles stayed where they were?..... Depends on how badly damaged the vehicle is. If there is reason to think that it can be repaired - or possibly even be taken apart for spare parts - then it will get moved. Even if the vehicle is a write off, chances are that you could still move it. In this case is it also possible that the vehicles being moved were captured enemy vehicles. Having taken a look at what would have been available, it seems that the some of the tracked landing vehicles in use by the USA in WW2 may have been suitable as the base for an infantry bridge. These had flat tops, over which you could probably place boards to create a bridge for infantry, possibly jeeps and maybe tanks (The Sherman only weighed 35 tons, and would have been narrow enough to navigate over such a bridge. The TLV were just over 3 metres wide, the Sherman just over two and a half metres wide.) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landing_Vehicle_Trackedthe term "field expedient" comes to mind. if you are moving fast, and a vehicle breaks down, it gets pushed out of the way and left where it sits. if you have the leisure, you send a crew to recover it later; but you don't sacrifice the mission for the equipment. in the Bin Ladin assault a stealth blackhawk got left where it landed - in tiny pieces to prevent reconstruction of the technology.
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Post by User Unavailable on Feb 11, 2013 21:46:23 GMT
Yep, a piece of equipment that breaks down is typically shoved off to the side, out of the way and any sensitive materials either removed or destroyed (if need be) and the mission continues.
Naturally not all situations call for destruction and the vehicles crew may simply be left with the vehicle to await recovery. Possibly with extra security, if needed or possible to spare the troops for security.
The amount of breakdowns or vehicles damaged by other means (enemy fire, IED, accident, etc.), may also result in the mission being scrubbed/aborted. (such as Operation Eagle Claw being aborted at Desert One)
Note: the decision to abort Operation Eagle Claw, at Desert One was made BEFORE the collision between the helo and the C-130. The abort was authorized due to 2 of the 8 helos not reaching Desert One, 1 of the 6 that did make it, had a hydraulic failure and the spare parts were on one of the choppers that didn't make it. 6 helos were deemed the minimum required for mission success, prior to the mission, though it "could" be done with 4 if there were no more failures. The MH-53 helos were known for problems with cold starts, and since the 5 useable helos would be grounded and hidden at the Desert Two location for nearly 24 hours, it was deemed by commanders on the ground to be too risky to continue and they asked the President for permission to abort, which was granted. The collision and fire occurred after the abort and while preparing to refuel aircraft to fly out of Iran.
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Post by privatepaddy on Feb 12, 2013 4:41:32 GMT
While the M4 Sherman tank was used extensively in the South Pacific, I am not sure it was used in the New Guinea campaign. The M3 Stuart was used to finally overcome the Japanese defences at Buna - Gona 17th November 1942 - 22nd January 1943. The US 32nd Infantry Division trained for operations in Europe ended up in Australia where they trained to defend Australia from an impending invasion. They ended up in the jungle fighting a force well trained in jungle warfare. The 32nd division "left" its artillery support in Australia as it was deemed it was not necessary for jungle warfare. The same authority also recommended that tanks were not suitable for jungle warfare.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 12, 2013 16:24:59 GMT
The M3 was the same width as the M4, so if the latter could physically fit on top of a TLV so could the former - in fact it would probably be more practical as the M3 was around half the weight as the Sherman.
The real advantage would not automatically be allowing tanks to pass, rather it would allow troops and supplies to be moved forward and casualties removed to the rear much more quickly and in greater numbers than you could manage with TLV's alone. In this case if you could use TLV's to create a bridge that was wide and strong enough for a Sherman, you'd have no problems moving trucks or Jeeps over it*.
(*From what I can tell all WW2 US military vehicles were about two and a half meters wide. As I noted the TLV's were some three meters wide, so while it might require careful driving there is no reason you couldn't use TLV's as the base of a bridge to allow other vehicles to pass over an obstacle.)
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Post by User Unavailable on Feb 12, 2013 17:08:41 GMT
Note that the "Amtrac" I posted the pic of earlier is an LVT. Here is a link to other pics of LVT's in use, at least one pic of which is again as bridge supports, with a truck on the bridge. www.oocities.org/amgrunt/WWII.htmlIn case the link doesn't open the part of the page with the pic, I'll post the pic below. Note that in the earlier pic and the pic in this post, the LVTs are placed into position "sideways", obviously to provide the widest and most stable base for support.
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Post by Cybermortis on Feb 12, 2013 17:54:03 GMT
Former, you are a star - couldn't find any images or information about TLV's being used in this way.
*Edit*
Given that no one who has a TLV is going to let MB drive anything over it, what could MB use as a substitute? Any ideas?
Did the US Military use anything similar enough to the old TLV's that they might have mothballed and be willing to let MB use?
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Post by privatepaddy on Feb 14, 2013 10:52:55 GMT
Note that the "Amtrac" I posted the pic of earlier is an LVT. Here is a link to other pics of LVT's in use, at least one pic of which is again as bridge supports, with a truck on the bridge. www.oocities.org/amgrunt/WWII.htmlIn case the link doesn't open the part of the page with the pic, I'll post the pic below. Note that in the earlier pic and the pic in this post, the LVTs are placed into position "sideways", obviously to provide the widest and most stable base for support. It is a very interesting photo but I am not sure it shows a bridge at least not a complete bridge.
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Post by silverdragon on Feb 25, 2013 9:06:39 GMT
In the photo above, I dont see signs of "Scrap" vehicles being used... I do see signs of vehicles that can "Bug out" at a moments notice... therefore, much MORE useful, as it shows a bridge that can be self-dismantled and used elsewhere when needed?... I actually like that as an idea.
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