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Post by User Unavailable on Mar 6, 2013 3:26:35 GMT
FormerMarine0341 said "though not sure what there is to test, as we have written history and photographic evidence that proves that this part is no "myth"." I would respectfully point out that the op is about New Guinea not Guadalcanal. Well, as far as the use of LVTs as bridge supports, the land mass makes no matter, it would work just as well on New Guinea as it would on Guadalcanal. LVTs were used in both campaigns for amphibious landings. Of course, you also have to specify "when and where" on New Guinea was the OP supposed to have taken place as just saying "New Guinea during WWII" covers from January 1942 when the Japanese invaded New Guinea until all the way to a decisive victory by the Allies in 1945. It was long campaign with several major battles and sub campaigns. |
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 6, 2013 4:33:56 GMT
The original post "Story goes ;D during World War II if the US forces needed a bridge in a hurry they would just keep pushing vehicles into a ravine till they had one. The blokes who told me this were a bunch of larrikins (all vets of the campaign) who didn't mind telling a yarn.  Read more: citadelofmyths.freeforums.net/index.cgi?board=military&action=display&thread=466&page=1#ixzz2MjEii1EJ" It is not possible to ask these gentleman for more detail as they have all passed away. My impression at that time (30 years ago) was a mountainous area and New Guinea which led me, recently to the US 32nd Infantry division because there is a distinct possibility they crossed paths. It is possible they were referring to New Britain or Bougainville but this was not my impression at the time. It was not possible for them to have been at Guadalcanal, the only Australians there were the officers and crew of the ill fated HMAS Canberra. It is and has always been possible that it was a story passed along the bush telegraph exaggerated at each retelling. Or a bit of a yarn to wind up the "young fella". I've pretty well shared all my research in this thread around the op and the fascinating story of the LVT-1. |
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Post by silverdragon on Mar 6, 2013 7:19:08 GMT
I was suspecting Recovery crew... its not easy to tow a tank?....
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 6, 2013 7:47:10 GMT
.jpg) 32D Division engineers work to extricate their wrecker from a mud hole on a “road” near Saidor, New Guinea, ca. January 1944. www.32nd-division.org/history/ww2/32ww2-6.html#SaidorShows some of the conditions faced in New Guinea as far as roads were concerned. As far as Tank repair it is possible they were repaired where they were by crews and support staff driving specialist trucks fitted out for the purpose. |
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Post by mrfatso on Mar 6, 2013 9:20:07 GMT
Weren`t there Armoured Recovery Vehicles made based on the Hulls of various Medium and heavy tanks, the British had Churchill based ones I know, the Americans ones based on the M3 Grant and the M4 Sherman. I know these were used in Europe, where any in the Pacific theatre?
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 6, 2013 9:40:08 GMT
Weren`t there Armoured Recovery Vehicles made based on the Hulls of various Medium and heavy tanks, the British had Churchill based ones I know, the Americans ones based on the M3 Grant and the M4 Sherman. I know these were used in Europe, where any in the Pacific theatre? I am not sure, I am not an expert in this area so it is indeed possible. In reading the information about the 32nd it can be seen that transporting the 105 mm artillery and the ammunition was nearly impossible in New Guinea due to the terrain and lack of roads. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 6, 2013 16:10:03 GMT
FormerMarine0341 said "though not sure what there is to test, as we have written history and photographic evidence that proves that this part is no "myth"." I would respectfully point out that the op is about New Guinea not Guadalcanal. I *think* Formers point was that using vehicles as the pylons of an emergency bridge is documented, that that part is not a 'myth' - although to be totally fair I seriously doubt that many people would be aware of this. The OP however was about 'pushing vehicles' into a feature to create a bridge, rather than carefully placing vehicles into position. I have to question as to if this would or could be considered a viable 'design' on any level. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Mar 6, 2013 17:23:37 GMT
FormerMarine0341 said "though not sure what there is to test, as we have written history and photographic evidence that proves that this part is no "myth"." I would respectfully point out that the op is about New Guinea not Guadalcanal. I *think* Formers point was that using vehicles as the pylons of an emergency bridge is documented, that that part is not a 'myth' - although to be totally fair I seriously doubt that many people would be aware of this. The OP however was about 'pushing vehicles' into a feature to create a bridge, rather than carefully placing vehicles into position. I have to question as to if this would or could be considered a viable 'design' on any level. Exactly. Also, as I said, it would have worked equally well on New Guinea as it did at Guadalcanal. Was it used on NG? Don't know. Could have been. As I said on page 1, simply rolling vehicles into a ravine does not a bridge make. It is going to require some thought out placement and most likely the use of logs and dirt. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Mar 6, 2013 18:13:52 GMT
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 7, 2013 5:50:19 GMT
FormerMarine0341 said "though not sure what there is to test, as we have written history and photographic evidence that proves that this part is no "myth"." I would respectfully point out that the op is about New Guinea not Guadalcanal. I *think* Formers point was that using vehicles as the pylons of an emergency bridge is documented, that that part is not a 'myth' - although to be totally fair I seriously doubt that many people would be aware of this. The OP however was about 'pushing vehicles' into a feature to create a bridge, rather than carefully placing vehicles into position. I have to question as to if this would or could be considered a viable 'design' on any level. Maybe in retrospect I should have put a smiley face in with the "due respect bit". Perhaps if you take a look at 'Junk Yard Wars" you will see all kinds of rubbish piled above head high which does include vehicles. Since FM may read this also I appreciate his efforts and now know a lot more about the "alligator" than I did. I agree that the photographs prove that its' versatility included temporary pylon supports for improvised bridges. I also agree that this means that they cannot be therefore a "myth". I also admit and have done so often that I cannot find one shed of evidence to support the OP. This is what makes it a "Myth" plausible or not, testable or not. On a personal level I know now more about the US 32nd and 41st Infantry Divisions, the US Marine Corps The Australian 6th, 7th and 9th divisions and their operations in theatre so all in all not a bad outcome. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Mar 7, 2013 15:38:35 GMT
No worries, I took no offense and hope I have not offended you.  I have thoroughly enjoyed this topic as it has allowed me to both use and to brush up on my knowledge of the Marine Corps and the Pacific campaigns. I have learned a lot simply by digging for obscure terms such as "improvised bridges in the pacific" and so on. I learned a lot about the Aussies part in the Pacific, that I didn't know before. I appreciate you posting this, Private Paddy, it has been one of the more interesting topics I have participated in. |
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 7, 2013 15:46:40 GMT
No worries, I took no offense and hope I have not offended you. I have thoroughly enjoyed this topic as it has allowed me to both use and to brush up on my knowledge of the Marine Corps and the Pacific campaigns. I have learned a lot simply by digging for obscure terms such as "improvised bridges in the pacific" and so on. I appreciate you posting this, Private Paddy, it has been one of the more interesting topics I have participated in. edit n I was a bit worried for a while that I had caused some sort of offence so your post clears that up, thanks. no offence taken by the way I like to converse with people who are knowledgeable about the subject matter at hand and I don't in the slightest mind being proved wrong. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Mar 8, 2013 4:00:51 GMT
As near as I've been able to determine so far. There were no roads that crossed the mountains of NG, back in the day. Roads could only go inland "so far", then to cross the mountains, required foot travel and bearers to move supplies, then supplies could be airlifted after units of the 32nd Division (128th Regt) secured suitable landing sites across the mountains. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapa_Kapa_Trail#32nd_Infantry_Division_march |
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 8, 2013 13:24:21 GMT
As near as I've been able to determine so far. There were no roads that crossed the mountains of NG, back in the day. Roads could only go inland "so far", then to cross the mountains, required foot travel and bearers to move supplies, then supplies could be airlifted after units of the 32nd Division (128th Regt) secured suitable landing sites across the mountains. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapa_Kapa_Trail#32nd_Infantry_Division_marchI would concur what they wouldn't have done for a squadron of Iroquois/hueys, even so what they did was with fixed wing aircraft was remarkable. What the 128th did should have earned each of them a citation for meritorious service, I don't believe there are many today that could repeat that march. Without insulting a famous General and national hero I wonder how long it takes a peace time commander to become a war time leader. Some of the judgement and decisions made were made on "not much" and no idea of the terrain/conditions. Boots on the ground made up for it. For those that don't know the Aussie 6th 7th and 9th divisions were part of the North African campaign. Which included the 6th was sent from Nth Africa to the ill-fated Greece/Crete campaigns the "silent" 7th Tobruk the 9th,"Rats of Tobruk" 1st and 2nd Battles of El Alamien. |
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 8, 2013 14:21:34 GMT
By the way I did not know that the 1st Marines had adopted "Waltzing Matilda" ;D they do know its about absconding with a sheep for supper |
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Post by mrfatso on Mar 8, 2013 17:32:13 GMT
That`s not what I heard he was planning for the sheep!! Had a it of Welshman in him that Swagman. (sorry Cybermortis).
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Post by User Unavailable on Mar 9, 2013 17:42:21 GMT
By the way I did not know that the 1st Marines had adopted "Waltzing Matilda" ;D they do know its about absconding with a sheep for supper I didn't know that either, I was never a part of the 1st Mar Div, I was in 2nd Mar Div primarily. Deployed as part of 3rd Mar Div, twice and was in 4th Mar Div for a bit. Edit: I was briefly attached to 1st Mar Div as part of a training cycle, but that's as close to being in 1st Mar Div as I got. I "almost" served in all 4 divisions.  Meh, stealing sheep to eat is no big deal to a bunch of field Marines. |
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 10, 2013 12:28:14 GMT
That`s not what I heard he was planning for the sheep!! Had a it of Welshman in him that Swagman. (sorry Cybermortis). Now I am not coming within the proverbial barge pole of that one  . I do have a Kiwi son-in-law whose ears prick up when someone makes the sound of a sheep ;D |
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Post by privatepaddy on Mar 10, 2013 12:35:50 GMT
By the way I did not know that the 1st Marines had adopted "Waltzing Matilda" ;D they do know its about absconding with a sheep for supper I didn't know that either, I was never a part of the 1st Mar Div, I was in 2nd Mar Div primarily. Deployed as part of 3rd Mar Div, twice and was in 4th Mar Div for a bit. Edit: I was briefly attached to 1st Mar Div as part of a training cycle, but that's as close to being in 1st Mar Div as I got. I "almost" served in all 4 divisions. Meh, stealing sheep to eat is no big deal to a bunch of field Marines. Better than ration packs  my son-in-law ( the South Australian) brought me some to try. Yep lamb would be manner from heaven ;D |
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Post by Cybermortis on Mar 10, 2013 15:25:14 GMT
MRE's are designed on the principle that if you force troops to eat them, they will be happy to run into heavy machine gun fire to avoid having to go though the experience again.
Its the same logic as to why the Scots regiments are not given alcohol before a battle. You just need to tell them that the enemy stole the whisky the night before. Then sit back and watch them crush anything and anyone between the starting point and the enemies supply dumps.
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. I do have a Kiwi son-in-law whose ears prick up when someone makes the sound of a sheep ;D 
my son-in-law ( the South Australian) brought me some to try. Yep lamb would be manner from heaven ;D