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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 2, 2013 16:15:45 GMT
It might be worth getting the electrics checked out now anyway, just to make sure there are no serious problems*. In fact this could be worth it in terms of adding an extension to the house, as you might be able to lay the groundwork for that should you need to have any work done. Getting the main system sorted out now, and if they know you intend to put in an extension, would/should at the very least save quite a bit of time and hassle once/if you have the extension built. (*I'm not an electrician, but what everyone has been saying about your electrics worries me no end. Just because it has worked fine for 30 odd years doesn't mean it isn't dangerous or isn't a potential fire hazard.) I'm a firm believer of "Hope for the best, prepare for the worst."
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 16:24:52 GMT
I know that this isn't the reply you were hoping for, asking if you can upgrade one panel and ending up being strongly advised to get your entire house checked and possibly re-wired was not what you were expecting to say the least. Then again, this advice could well save your house if not your life. Actually, these are the types of answers I was looking for. To be able to hear from experts & others who have been through the process is enlightening. At the end of the day, it probably would be best to have an expert at least involved in preliminary stages of the project. So, at this point, I might put this on the back burner as we're considering a large addition to the house that will require upgrading the electrical (adding an entire second floor living area) in the next 3-5 years. I've survived running extension cords from the garage to the shed up to this point, I could definitely last a few more years. As Cyber said, this might be a good time to do a complete upgrade in preparation for that - if it fits in your budget.
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 16:31:06 GMT
Actually, these are the types of answers I was looking for. To be able to hear from experts & others who have been through the process is enlightening. At the end of the day, it probably would be best to have an expert at least involved in preliminary stages of the project. So, at this point, I might put this on the back burner as we're considering a large addition to the house that will require upgrading the electrical (adding an entire second floor living area) in the next 3-5 years. I've survived running extension cords from the garage to the shed up to this point, I could definitely last a few more years. As Cyber said, this might be a good time to do a complete upgrade in preparation for that - if it fits in your budget. to clarify: a complete service upgrade now; and then an interior wiring upgrade when you do the expansion. what I would be inclined to recommend on a situation like that is to trace back the old wiring in any area worked on to a natural junction point, as I previously said - include any wiring old enough not to have a ground conductor, then install new wiring from those points, on.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 2, 2013 17:44:33 GMT
As Cyber said, this might be a good time to do a complete upgrade in preparation for that - if it fits in your budget. to clarify: a complete service upgrade now; and then an interior wiring upgrade when you do the expansion. what I would be inclined to recommend on a situation like that is to trace back the old wiring in any area worked on to a natural junction point, as I previously said - include any wiring old enough not to have a ground conductor, then install new wiring from those points, on. Upgrading the wires would be a good idea. The house has a lot of BX (Armored Cable) and some Cloth Mesh (Vinyl?) "Insulated" cable.
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 18:02:58 GMT
to clarify: a complete service upgrade now; and then an interior wiring upgrade when you do the expansion. what I would be inclined to recommend on a situation like that is to trace back the old wiring in any area worked on to a natural junction point, as I previously said - include any wiring old enough not to have a ground conductor, then install new wiring from those points, on. Upgrading the wires would be a good idea. The house has a lot of BX (Armored Cable) and some Cloth Mesh (Vinyl?) "Insulated" cable. the cloth wrapped cable is the original version of modern NM (romex) you actually can find some that has a ground wire, but it is pretty rare. BX, properly terminated, used the armor as a grounded conductor, which is marginally effective. commonly, though, the insulation on both is stiff, and the copper has become work hardened through age. the little bitty device boxes and the short leads are more a pin in the neck than a hazard.
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 18:08:12 GMT
If you really want to go modern, you will also redo the wiring method from the 50s "hub and drop" architecture (circuit goes to light fixture and plugs drop from there) to the more modern circuit goes from device to device architecture - and if you want to go all out, you will do like I do and run circuits that just do lights and circuits that just do plugs. (that way you can do 15 amp circuits for the lights and have the wire easy to work with, and 20 amp circuits for the plugs and have plenty of power for the vacuum.)
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 2, 2013 18:21:47 GMT
I'm guessing that the hub and drop architecture comes from the very early part of the 20th century. If I'm remembering correctly, electricity was originally only used for lighting, and when electric devices started to appear for the home you had to plug them into the light socket. It was probably a lot easier at this point to carry the wiring from the lights to plug sockets when they appeared.
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 18:43:06 GMT
I'm guessing that the hub and drop architecture comes from the very early part of the 20th century. If I'm remembering correctly, electricity was originally only used for lighting, and when electric devices started to appear for the home you had to plug them into the light socket. It was probably a lot easier at this point to carry the wiring from the lights to plug sockets when they appeared. precisely. the days of "nobody has anything to plug into this, but we'll put in a couple receptacles in case they come up with something later"
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 2, 2013 18:45:01 GMT
If you really want to go modern, you will also redo the wiring method from the 50s "hub and drop" architecture (circuit goes to light fixture and plugs drop from there) to the more modern circuit goes from device to device architecture - I have two outlets that require a light switch to be turned on if you want them to work. Not sure if this is do to "hub & drop" or the elcetrician just didn't realize that outlet was being placed after the swtich in the circuit. Ideally, I would love to have an organized main box in which one breaker = one room (or two adjoining rooms), would 20A Tandem be useful to allow lights & outlets to be separated while only using one slot in the box? The main box is currently an unmarked mess! I have been trying to map the breakers as I've had to do repairs around the house (new lights, outlets, etc) and have found some interesting combinations, such as a bathroom with the light and two outlets on one breaker while the third outlet runs off a breaker that controls the lights in the basement...
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 19:03:22 GMT
If you really want to go modern, you will also redo the wiring method from the 50s "hub and drop" architecture (circuit goes to light fixture and plugs drop from there) to the more modern circuit goes from device to device architecture - I have two outlets that require a light switch to be turned on if you want them to work. Not sure if this is do to "hub & drop" or the elcetrician just didn't realize that outlet was being placed after the swtich in the circuit. Ideally, I would love to have an organized main box in which one breaker = one room (or two adjoining rooms), would 20A Tandem be useful to allow lights & outlets to be separated while only using one slot in the box? The main box is currently an unmarked mess! I have been trying to map the breakers as I've had to do repairs around the house (new lights, outlets, etc) and have found some interesting combinations, such as a bathroom with the light and two outlets on one breaker while the third outlet runs off a breaker that controls the lights in the basement... switched plugs: this is most commonly done in lieu of a permanently mounted light. better electricians only switch HALF the plug, though. it could also be a misconnected wire in the light, if there is a ceiling light. I personally feel tandem (twin) breakers are a sign of poor planning. they mean you didn't install a big enough breaker panel. this is my basic rule: a 15 amp lighting circuit carries 10 light fixtures. fixtures that are expected to have extra load (I.E. heatlights or monster chandeliers) count as 2. a 20 amp receptacle circuit carries approximately 10 receptacles. current code requires: a bathroom plug circuit may ONLY supply bathroom plugs. a laundry circuit may ONLY supply plugs in the laundry room. there must be a minimum of two kitchen plug circuits that ONLY supply plugs in the kitchen and dining room. these circuits MUST be 20 amp circuits. the rest of the house must be provided by enough circuits to supply an average load of 3 watts per square foot. depending on whether your local jurisdiction has adopted it or not, there is a chance that (a) all 120V circuits must be protected by arc fault protection on all new work or (b) all 120V circuits that do things inside bedrooms must be protected by arc fault protection on all new or remodel work. there are also basic rules of thumb on receptacle spacing on all new or remodel work: basically, nothing on a kitchen counter may be more than 2 feet from a receptacle, noting in any other living space can be more than 6 feet from a receptacle, (assuming the item is against a wall) every hall and stairway must have a receptacle to plug the vacuum into. every living space or hall or stairway must be set up so you can hit a switch and turn on a light.
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 19:09:21 GMT
I'm not so devoted to the one breaker = one room model. It makes sense for motels, but frequently, it is handy to have both sides of a wall share a circuit - if the load mapping works. I have come to the conclusion that arc fault requirements are doing more harm than good. I've had a lot of nuisance calls because the electrician has stretched the bedroom circuits as far as he could get away with - as in 600 square feet of bedroom on one 15A breaker. and now, with them requiring them everywhere, we'll have electricians wiring the mandatory kitchen/bathroom/laundry circuits, and putting the rest of a 1200 square foot house on just two circuits. (to compare, my 1200 square foot house has 10 general purpose circuits.)
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 2, 2013 19:09:33 GMT
After reading that, I definitely think I'll do a whole house rewire when we have the addition put on. A whole house rewire would cost around $10,000 or so depending on # of rooms & size of house? Being a hands-on homeowner, would an electrician allow me to aid in running (non-electrified) wire around the house to cut the cost a little bit?
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 19:15:07 GMT
After reading that, I definitely think I'll do a whole house rewire when we have the addition put on. A whole house rewire would cost around $10,000 or so depending on # of rooms & size of house? Being a hands-on homeowner, would an electrician allow me to aid in running (non-electrified) wire around the house to cut the cost a little bit? cost depends on a lot of factors, but assuming a modest dwelling, that sounds like a good estimate. the houses I do tend to run a little higher than that (sometimes a lot higher than that - I did one that cost ME $10,000 in parts) I have done projects where I allowed the homeowner to act as my helper, and that depends a lot on your local rules, as well. this is not a modest dwelling:
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 19:19:28 GMT
inside:
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 2, 2013 19:36:07 GMT
That house is about as modest as Madonna...I think confused would be a good term for that house: the outside looks industrial, the inside is trying to look rustic with exposed beams while the decor seems "modern". I'll stick with my much more modest ranch-style house.
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 19:41:47 GMT
That house is about as modest as Madonna...I think confused would be a good term for that house: the outside looks industrial, the inside is trying to look rustic with exposed beams while the decor seems "modern". I'll stick with my much more modest ranch-style house. it was designed by an architect, so that is to be expected.
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Aug 2, 2013 19:57:32 GMT
Architects: The reason for the phrases "You want that where??" & "You do know that that is not actually possible in real life, right??"
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Post by wvengineer on Oct 11, 2013 11:50:34 GMT
So how did this go?
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Post by The Urban Mythbuster on Oct 22, 2013 19:03:15 GMT
Decided to hold off for a couple years until we decide to go through with the remodel. I'll have all the electrical upgraded then.
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Post by the light works on Oct 22, 2013 19:42:13 GMT
Decided to hold off for a couple years until we decide to go through with the remodel. I'll have all the electrical upgraded then. start saving your nickels...
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