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Post by Lex Of Sydney Australia on Aug 2, 2013 17:01:27 GMT
They like the phone companies all share the same basic infrastructure, but have monitoring devices installed at each home to see how much you spend. They jointly share in the up keep of the infrastructure & work out their fees according to cost for up keep + profits they'd like to make. They're monitored by the government & independent regulators in order to avoid corruption & price fixing. The good thing about this is it actually keeps the costs lower because they're always trying to steal each others customers & offering loyalty specials if you stay with them. This year my power/gas company started giving me a 30% discount off my gas & electric bills (15% of each group) since I've been with them for 5 years. a lot of people hated when they deregulated phone service here - they broke up "ma bell" into smaller divisions, and each division had control of local service in their area; but you could buy long distance service from anyone. the end result was long distance providers pestering everybody to buy from them; and ultimately, some illegitimate "slamming" (where a provider would switch you to their service, and claim you had approved it over the phone) and the average cost of service didn't get any lower and the quality of service didn't get any higher. I don't know if our system gets any more abuse than yours. as I said, prices are very strictly regulated. They had something similar to this happen here when they deregulated services. A lot of people especially old folk got stung, so now they have a 30 day cooling off period. & the new provider MUST let the old provider know you’ve transferred & send you a letter within 2 weeks of transferring over to confirm the transfer. Most times when the transfer occurs the old provider will call you to confirm you if you did authorise the transfer & make sure its not a scam (& if you did authorise it to see if they can win you back again). |
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Post by the light works on Aug 2, 2013 17:19:35 GMT
a lot of people hated when they deregulated phone service here - they broke up "ma bell" into smaller divisions, and each division had control of local service in their area; but you could buy long distance service from anyone. the end result was long distance providers pestering everybody to buy from them; and ultimately, some illegitimate "slamming" (where a provider would switch you to their service, and claim you had approved it over the phone) and the average cost of service didn't get any lower and the quality of service didn't get any higher. I don't know if our system gets any more abuse than yours. as I said, prices are very strictly regulated. They had something similar to this happen here when they deregulated services. A lot of people especially old folk got stung, so now they have a 30 day cooling off period. & the new provider MUST let the old provider know you’ve transferred & send you a letter within 2 weeks of transferring over to confirm the transfer. Most times when the transfer occurs the old provider will call you to confirm you if you did authorise the transfer & make sure its not a scam (& if you did authorise it to see if they can win you back again). I think they have threatened to do that here, too. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 4, 2013 14:01:20 GMT
you wash your dishes in cold water? Sorry. Didn't factor in that the water heater uses electricity. Still, it's a lot less than the dishwasher uses. It would depend on how much water the respective systems are trying to heat up. The more water you are heating the more energy you need, even if the systems are listed as using different amounts of power. In the case of a dishwasher, for example, it might be heating up double the amount of water if it is using clean water for the last cycle. I'm guessing that the 'dishwasher uses less energy' argument comes from studies against old style boilers, that are heating several gallons of water at a time rather than the washers gallon or so. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 4, 2013 14:14:33 GMT
Sorry. Didn't factor in that the water heater uses electricity. Still, it's a lot less than the dishwasher uses. It would depend on how much water the respective systems are trying to heat up. The more water you are heating the more energy you need, even if the systems are listed as using different amounts of power. In the case of a dishwasher, for example, it might be heating up double the amount of water if it is using clean water for the last cycle. I'm guessing that the 'dishwasher uses less energy' argument comes from studies against old style boilers, that are heating several gallons of water at a time rather than the washers gallon or so. but if the washer only uses a gallon, then the boiler will only be heating a gallon. tank style water heaters don't purge and refill the entire tank when they begin a heat cycle. so if you are 100% electric (for simplicity) it will theoretically take exactly the same electricity to heat the water whether you are heating it at the dishwasher or at the central water heater. that returns the question to whether the dishwasher uses more or less water than the average handwashing job. (and consider that there are two different styles of handwashing - my mother taught me to fill both basins - one with soapy water and one with clear water. soak and scrub in the soapy and rinse in the clear. other people rinse under running water. the worst dishwashing habit I saw (other than my niece who holds each dish under full running water until any solids are either rinsed off or decompose before putting it in the dishwasher) was a girl who would put about a quarter teaspoon of soap into each dish and then scrub and rinse under running water.) |
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Post by OziRiS on Aug 4, 2013 14:50:20 GMT
Heating the water isn't the only part of what a dishwasher does that needs electrical power, so assuming we use the same amount of hot water, washing by hand conserves more power. Of course I don't know that I use the exact same amount of water as the dishwasher. That may very well be where the difference is.
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Post by the light works on Aug 4, 2013 15:00:14 GMT
Heating the water isn't the only part of what a dishwasher does that needs electrical power, so assuming we use the same amount of hot water, washing by hand conserves more power. Of course I don't know that I use the exact same amount of water as the dishwasher. That may very well be where the difference is. it has to use and heat enough less water to offset the electrical demands of the pump. they make "civilian" watthour meters that they could use to measure the electrical draw. I think we should stick to water and direct electrical use, though. we could go crazy and start making assumptions about washing dishes with the lights on and laundering washcloths and towels, but I think that should wait for the "you did it wrong because you didn't get the results I wanted" crowd  |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 4, 2013 15:17:18 GMT
Boiler as in a large tank of water with a heating element. With this design if you have to heat up all the water in the tank regardless of how much water you wanted.
These types of water-heater were still fairly common when domestic dishwashers first appeared, and I suspect that the energy figures of the machines were being compared to these older and less efficient boilers.
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Post by the light works on Aug 4, 2013 15:23:45 GMT
Boiler as in a large tank of water with a heating element. With this design if you have to heat up all the water in the tank regardless of how much water you wanted. These types of water-heater were still fairly common when domestic dishwashers first appeared, and I suspect that the energy figures of the machines were being compared to these older and less efficient boilers. you missed this part: " tank style water heaters don't purge and refill the entire tank when they begin a heat cycle." if you draw off 2 gallons from a 50 gallon water heater, the other 48 gallons are still hot. over here in yankland we still don't believe there is any advantage to having a separate water heater for each appliance. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 4, 2013 17:00:45 GMT
That assumes that the water is preheated and required for other things. If, however, you are heating water up purely for washing up then you are using energy to heat up far more water than you need.
As I said, I suspect that the energy consumption figures are 'doctored'. This this case I wound not be surprised to find that the tests are for such tanks being heated from cold (or cool) to provide water for washing, and then comparing them against dishwashers that are heating a far smaller amount of water.
Clearly such a comparison is going to show 'better' consumption figures for the dishwasher, even if its heating elements actually use more energy to heat up a given volume of water.
In the case of more modern boilers, which are most likely to be connected to a central heating system, they are probably taking the energy figures from what that system uses to heat up the entire house. Rather than looking at how much energy the system is really using to just heat up a small amount of water for washing.
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Post by the light works on Aug 4, 2013 21:24:29 GMT
That assumes that the water is preheated and required for other things. If, however, you are heating water up purely for washing up then you are using energy to heat up far more water than you need. As I said, I suspect that the energy consumption figures are 'doctored'. This this case I wound not be surprised to find that the tests are for such tanks being heated from cold (or cool) to provide water for washing, and then comparing them against dishwashers that are heating a far smaller amount of water. Clearly such a comparison is going to show 'better' consumption figures for the dishwasher, even if its heating elements actually use more energy to heat up a given volume of water. In the case of more modern boilers, which are most likely to be connected to a central heating system, they are probably taking the energy figures from what that system uses to heat up the entire house. Rather than looking at how much energy the system is really using to just heat up a small amount of water for washing. I don't think so. I think automatic dishwashers just use far less water than people think they do. I would guess filling the sink to wash the dishes uses well over 5 gallons of water; probably closer to 10. whereas I would guess a dishwasher uses only 2 or 3. and no, our central water heaters are almost never connected directly to the central heating - and even those that use a common heat source are partitioned. for example, a house with boiler fired hydronic heat might have a separate zone on the controller to heat the domestic water. |
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