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Post by the light works on Aug 14, 2013 16:06:24 GMT
the whole key to this is that comparing the standard starfleet ships to warships is very much like comparing HMS Bounty to HMS Victory.
it's the difference between a ship that can go to war, and a ship that can't do anything else.
it also needs to be considered that deployment in Starfleet is measured in years, and is more comparable to posting to a major military base than to deployment to a field position.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 14, 2013 16:22:20 GMT
I'd say more like comparing a ship from the East India Company with a ship from the Royal Navy. East India ships were mainly merchant vessels, but they were armed almost as well as a man of war and in the Indian Ocean were frequently taking on many of the roles than elsewhere would be filled by the Navy - they even ended up fighting full on fleet actions. Both on their own and in company with Warships.
In the Indian Ocean their ships were powerful enough to deal with anything native to those waters, which they either badly outclassed or were on a level footing with (the French and Dutch equivalents were using similar ships). The second they ran into a dedicated Warship however they were in serious trouble.
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 14, 2013 18:26:17 GMT
Sorry, but cannon supports that the ships were warships with a science and exploration role. Despite what Roddenberry said, if his intention was to depict Star Fleet as a non military organization, then he failed miserably. Very, very miserably. As on screen, which IS cannon, Star Fleet personnel and ships engaged in many wars and war like activities on nearly a every show basis. Star Fleet participated in everything from covert special operations to full out war. Memory Alpha makes it pretty clear that StarFleet and the Federation had their military roles AND their science, exploration roles. Edit: it is even made clear, on screen and thus canon, that military and command training are of the highest priority at the Academy. and how many archaeological missions were you deployed on while you were in the marines? How many dignitaries were you assigned to chauffeur from one country to another? How many scientists did you transport to laboratories? Archaeological missions, none. Humanitarian/relief missions, several. Which are still done today. Transported, protected and "entertained", by way of Dog and Pony Shows*, dignitaries from several countries. Which still occurs today. The last ship borne deployment I was on, we had a team of civilian scientists living aboard our LST and doing classified experiments in their "lab", which was a heavily modified CONEX, strapped to the rear of the helo pad and fantail. There is a long history of naval ships transporting scientists and carrying out scientific research. Also, the us military has been resupplying the research station at the South Pole since the military built the first station in 1956. The Navy handled resupplying for years, though now the USAF has taken over the mission of resupplying to the station. Don't forget that the USCG, carries out search and rescue missions, like those we've seen the various ships on various ST series do. All branches of the US military take part in one form or another in all manner of disaster relief, SAR and humanitarian aid, not strictly limited to military function. * Dog and Pony Shows, we put those on ALL THE TIME, for visiting dignitaries and politicians. We hated those for most part. (Just as they did on various ST shows) |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 14, 2013 18:52:03 GMT
Sorry, but cannon supports that the ships were warships with a science and exploration role. Despite what Roddenberry said, if his intention was to depict Star Fleet as a non military organization, then he failed miserably. Very, very miserably. As on screen, which IS cannon, Star Fleet personnel and ships engaged in many wars and war like activities on nearly a every show basis. Star Fleet participated in everything from covert special operations to full out war. Memory Alpha makes it pretty clear that StarFleet and the Federation had their military roles AND their science, exploration roles. I agree that trying to claim that Starfleet isn't a military organisation doesn't make sense in terms of what we see. From its structure, ranks and the missions the Enterprises ended up performing over the years it is hard to view it as anything else. Then again we only pick up the voyages of the ships when they are doing something 'interesting', and tended not to be shown the times they spent weeks mapping star systems. We can (obviously) make a strong argument that the ships (with notable exceptions such as the Grissom class) were warships of a sort, and even the official guides note that one of the primary roles of Starfleet is to defend the Federation. However it may be that Starfleet simply fell into this role rather than being specifically created to perform it. This would in fact jibe with what we see in Star Trek; Enterprise. When originally launched the NX Enterprise was effectively unarmed, and while its weapons increased in number and power over the course of the show. This increase was a result of being attacked frequently rather than specifically because they were tasked with defending Earth - and even when they did end up having to defend Earth it seems this was because they were the only ones in a position to do so. ST Enterprise also introduced us to the MACO's, who were very clearly identified as being Earth's military force and implied to be much smaller and lacking warships of their own. The MACO's used army ranks (such as Major), rather than Starfleets naval ranks. As we hear the (none Starfleet) rank of Colonel being used in STVI the implication is that MACO's - and hence the 'military' - still existed in Kirks time as a different organisation. Starfleet may not see itself as being military, but clearly understood that it was going to have to defend itself and the Federation. The Federation (and before that Earth) would have quickly discovered that military or not Starfleet was quite capable of protecting it, and creating a second fleet of 'pure' warships would probably strain resources to duplicate what Starfleet was already doing. Politically the Federation was meant to be a peaceful power, who expanded though none-violent means and who was quite willing to leave other powers alone. Kind of hard to convince newly encountered species of that when your opening line is 'This is the warship Enterprise...'. Starship sounds far less aggressive, as does 'cruiser', which is probably why such terms were used for ships that others might consider Battleships. The make up of the crews also seems to support the idea that the fleet didn't view itself as being military. Even on Kirks Enterprise there were quite a lot of departments and positions that had nothing to do with combat - from historians to pure scientists. Picard's Enterprise was even worse in this regard, as according to several sources circa Encounter at Far point (including the novel) almost 2/3rds of the crew wasn't needed to fight the ship at its full potential*. This figure included the barber and the entire staff in Ten Forward - who were all civilians - and members of some of the science departments. Keiko O'Brien was a Botanist on the Enterprise D, but not in Starfleet. (*The crew complement of the Enterprise D, and the Galaxy class in general, was given several times as 1012. The novel of Encounter at Far Point notes that the ship only really needed a crew the size of Kirks Enterprise to run her effectively. Which would put the minimum required crew of the first season Enterprise D at some 400-450 personal, which in turn was twice the number of personal Kirks Enterprise had when Captain Pike was in command. So clearly most of the crews of Starfleet ships were not involved or needed to keep the ships in fighting condition.) My best guess (or argument) boils down to the whole 'humans are enlightened' and 'Have got rid of war and conflict' angle and background Trek is meant to have*. In this regards they probably didn't want to see themselves as being 'military' - especially if they had the biggest fleet around. They might have also found it difficult to get enough recruits or support for maintaining a large fleet if they were viewed as a military force, or designing and building ships that you couldn't really pass off as being armed purely for defence and exploration. This would make sense in a culture where the vast majority of the population would never have had to really face the possibility of being attacked by an outside force. Remember that until the Breen entered the Dominion War it had been some 200 years - during the Romulan war - since Earth had been attacked**. (*Which ignores that the Federation had wars or conflicts with the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians, Gorn, and Tholians in the one hundred years or so between TOS and TNG.) (**Ignoring V'Ger and the Whale Probe from TOS films - neither of which actually did any damage) I can agree with much of that assessment. :)g |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 14, 2013 20:11:02 GMT
There is, but most of the ships that conducted that research (and certainly exploration) were not warships. HMS Endeavour was originally a Collier, while the Trinidad (Ferdinand Magellan's flagship) was a Carrick (a type of ship used mainly for trading rather than warfare.) Others, such as HMS Beagle, were 'universal' types - meaning that the only difference between the 'military' and 'civilian' versions were the number of crew and guns carried.
The main prerequisite for exploration missions was endurance, which for a sailing ship was mainly dictated by the amount of stores that could be carried. Merchant ships were usually capable of carrying car more stores than their Military counterparts, so they seem to have been used for this duty more often.
This is interesting in a Trek context, because Starfleet ships seem to be considerably larger than comparable ships from other powers - with one or two exceptions. The only ship type Starfleet has which seems to compare directly in terms of size to its counterparts is...the Defiant, which is roughly the same size as a Klingon Bird of Prey.
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 14, 2013 23:11:53 GMT
There is, but most of the ships that conducted that research (and certainly exploration) were not warships. HMS Endeavour was originally a Collier, while the Trinidad (Ferdinand Magellan's flagship) was a Carrick (a type of ship used mainly for trading rather than warfare.) Others, such as HMS Beagle, were 'universal' types - meaning that the only difference between the 'military' and 'civilian' versions were the number of crew and guns carried. The main prerequisite for exploration missions was endurance, which for a sailing ship was mainly dictated by the amount of stores that could be carried. Merchant ships were usually capable of carrying car more stores than their Military counterparts, so they seem to have been used for this duty more often. This is interesting in a Trek context, because Starfleet ships seem to be considerably larger than comparable ships from other powers - with one or two exceptions. The only ship type Starfleet has which seems to compare directly in terms of size to its counterparts is...the Defiant, which is roughly the same size as a Klingon Bird of Prey. Though scientific research didnt suddenly end with the demise of sailing vessels and warships became more able to stay at sea for extended periods. One of the LSTs I.sailed on, had previously been part of extended research in North Atlantic/Arctic Ocean in the mid 70s, after Vietnam, when the LSTs were less busy in the post war time. (Then she got really busy rotating Marines to and from Beirut, the invasion of Grenada and other deployments) Here is some scientific research that could only be done with use of a "warship". Sure, its a nuclear submarine, under the ice cap, but...still goes toward my point. On another note, the Submarine is a ship type never mentioned in the ST universe, for the obvious reason that ST is space based, but ships and races with cloaking technology, could be seen as the "submarines" of the ST world. 1. Not everyone has the technology and it is a closely held and protected secret, just as today's super stealthy nuclear submarines and their technology are as we're their predecessors in the pre nuclear age. 2. Just as subs give away their position when firing torpedoes and must take evasive action to again disappear, cloaked ships must decloak to fire their weapons and maneuver while recloaking to again disappear and subs and cloaked ships can be damaged by firing "spreads" along likely egress routes from their last known position. 3. Subs and cloaked ships can be tracked once you know what to look for. 4. Subs and cloaked ships can malfunction or be sabotaged or leak something or otherwise leave a unintended trail for an aggressor to follow. 5. Both subs and cloaked ships can covertly take on or egress personnel while submerged/cloaked. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 15, 2013 0:12:57 GMT
'Extended' is relative. The effective endurance of ships fell with the introduction of internally powered engines, as they needed to stop off to refuel.
Where as in 1820 a ship of the line would be quite capable of sailing from England to India without stopping* - a trip that could take up to six months. By 1920 a battleship would have to stop and refuel at least twice. In fact the reason Britain maintained so many overseas bases was because they needed strategic locations where their ships could refuel.
It wasn't until the advent of nuclear powered ships that range became a question of the amount of stores rather than fuel that could be carried.
(*Not that they usually tried to do this.)
In Trek it is unclear as to how often ships needed to refuel. Hydrogen doesn't seem to have been a problem*, as all Starfleet ships were fitted with Bussard collectors. Antimatter however was a different matter, and clearly was the limiting factor in regards the range of ships as it was needed to power the warp core and hence the warp drive**
The amount of antimatter carried was only stated for Voyager - three years worth during the first season, which since the ship had left DS9 could be assumed to be near a full supply.
If we further assume that the amount of fuel carried is related to the size of the ship. Then we can make some assumptions on the amount of fuel carried. Ball-Parking the figures and respective sizes, I would estimate that the Galaxy Class carried enough fuel for roughly 12 years, the Excelsior class around 5 years and the Bird of Prey and Defiant classes a year to a year and a half's worth of fuel.
So this implies that the Defiant would not have had the range to be considered an 'explorer' ship - even compared to the Intrepid Class ships.
(*Even if an episode of ST Ent and one from TNG decided to treat hydrogen as something rare....)
(**At least for Federation and Klingon ships - other power sources were mentioned as being used by other races.)
Well, not really. It seems that most races in the ST universe have cloaking technology, but they just don't use it. In the case of the Federation this was stated to be because they A; were not about 'sneaking around' and B; because they had a treaty with the Romulans not to use such technology. In the case of the Cardassians it is probable that their technology wasn't capable of creating cloaking systems that could fool the more advanced Starfleet sensors. So they simply never bothered to fit cloaking devices to their ships, instead devoting the space to other systems.
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Post by the light works on Aug 15, 2013 0:30:48 GMT
I'd say more like comparing a ship from the East India Company with a ship from the Royal Navy. East India ships were mainly merchant vessels, but they were armed almost as well as a man of war and in the Indian Ocean were frequently taking on many of the roles than elsewhere would be filled by the Navy - they even ended up fighting full on fleet actions. Both on their own and in company with Warships. In the Indian Ocean their ships were powerful enough to deal with anything native to those waters, which they either badly outclassed or were on a level footing with (the French and Dutch equivalents were using similar ships). The second they ran into a dedicated Warship however they were in serious trouble. I got tired of fishing around to try to get a name of an East India company ship. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 15, 2013 0:31:18 GMT
and how many archaeological missions were you deployed on while you were in the marines? How many dignitaries were you assigned to chauffeur from one country to another? How many scientists did you transport to laboratories? Archaeological missions, none. Humanitarian/relief missions, several. Which are still done today. Transported, protected and "entertained", by way of Dog and Pony Shows*, dignitaries from several countries. Which still occurs today. The last ship borne deployment I was on, we had a team of civilian scientists living aboard our LST and doing classified experiments in their "lab", which was a heavily modified CONEX, strapped to the rear of the helo pad and fantail. There is a long history of naval ships transporting scientists and carrying out scientific research. Also, the us military has been resupplying the research station at the South Pole since the military built the first station in 1956. The Navy handled resupplying for years, though now the USAF has taken over the mission of resupplying to the station. Don't forget that the USCG, carries out search and rescue missions, like those we've seen the various ships on various ST series do. All branches of the US military take part in one form or another in all manner of disaster relief, SAR and humanitarian aid, not strictly limited to military function. * Dog and Pony Shows, we put those on ALL THE TIME, for visiting dignitaries and politicians. We hated those for most part. (Just as they did on various ST shows) so, by your definition, the coast guard boats at my local station are purpose built warships? |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 15, 2013 3:49:00 GMT
'Extended' is relative. The effective endurance of ships fell with the introduction of internally powered engines, as they needed to stop off to refuel. Where as in 1820 a ship of the line would be quite capable of sailing from England to India without stopping* - a trip that could take up to six months. By 1920 a battleship would have to stop and refuel at least twice. In fact the reason Britain maintained so many overseas bases was because they needed strategic locations where their ships could refuel. It wasn't until the advent of nuclear powered ships that range became a question of the amount of stores rather than fuel that could be carried. (*Not that they usually tried to do this.) In Trek it is unclear as to how often ships needed to refuel. Hydrogen doesn't seem to have been a problem*, as all Starfleet ships were fitted with Bussard collectors. Antimatter however was a different matter, and clearly was the limiting factor in regards the range of ships as it was needed to power the warp core and hence the warp drive** The amount of antimatter carried was only stated for Voyager - three years worth during the first season, which since the ship had left DS9 could be assumed to be near a full supply. If we further assume that the amount of fuel carried is related to the size of the ship. Then we can make some assumptions on the amount of fuel carried. Ball-Parking the figures and respective sizes, I would estimate that the Galaxy Class carried enough fuel for roughly 12 years, the Excelsior class around 5 years and the Bird of Prey and Defiant classes a year to a year and a half's worth of fuel. So this implies that the Defiant would not have had the range to be considered an 'explorer' ship - even compared to the Intrepid Class ships. is the answer to extending the range of ships with both fuel and supplies, without need of pulling into port regularly. (And you may be surprised at just how long it has been around and in use) Even the Defiant did some exploring/recon missions, particularly in the Gamma Quadrant. Even a small, warp capable ship can cover a lot of territory in a short amount of time. Here is one example of the Defiant on a week long mission. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 15, 2013 3:52:36 GMT
Archaeological missions, none. Humanitarian/relief missions, several. Which are still done today. Transported, protected and "entertained", by way of Dog and Pony Shows*, dignitaries from several countries. Which still occurs today. The last ship borne deployment I was on, we had a team of civilian scientists living aboard our LST and doing classified experiments in their "lab", which was a heavily modified CONEX, strapped to the rear of the helo pad and fantail. There is a long history of naval ships transporting scientists and carrying out scientific research. Also, the us military has been resupplying the research station at the South Pole since the military built the first station in 1956. The Navy handled resupplying for years, though now the USAF has taken over the mission of resupplying to the station. Don't forget that the USCG, carries out search and rescue missions, like those we've seen the various ships on various ST series do. All branches of the US military take part in one form or another in all manner of disaster relief, SAR and humanitarian aid, not strictly limited to military function. * Dog and Pony Shows, we put those on ALL THE TIME, for visiting dignitaries and politicians. We hated those for most part. (Just as they did on various ST shows) so, by your definition, the coast guard boats at my local station are purpose built warships? Can you point to any comment I've made that states every ship/boat in the Navy or CG or every ship/class of ship in Star Fleet are purpose built warships? I don't believe you can. Nor can you point out any comment that implies such. If you'll go back and read what I typed(which is a lot to ask apparently) you'll note I was referring to frigates, cruisers and destroyers and such as being warships in StarFleet, despite being multi role vessels. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 15, 2013 4:27:31 GMT
so, by your definition, the coast guard boats at my local station are purpose built warships? Can you point to any comment I've made that states every ship/boat in the Navy or CG or every ship/class of ship in Star Fleet are purpose built warships? I don't believe you can. Nor can you point out any comment that implies such. If you'll go back and read what I typed(which is a lot to ask apparently) you'll note I was referring to frigates, cruisers and destroyers and such as being warships in StarFleet, despite being multi role vessels. and if you will read back, you will see the statement you are denying is that Defiant was Starfleet's first PURPOSE BUILT WARSHIP. fact of the matter is, nobody''s denying that the various shows had a lot of incidents of people shooting at each other. nobody's denying that Starfleet is pretty darned good at the shooting. what we are pointing out is that the Enterprise is NOT the deep space version of the USS Missouri. The crew can't just pop home on a weekend pass to see the wife and kids. the ship is going to be home, and it is going to be home for years at a time. that gives you the option of having a crew that ends up single, whether they started out single or not; or allowing them to bring the family along. when you add the rather large civilian crew complement that gets even more significant. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 15, 2013 4:42:17 GMT
Can you point to any comment I've made that states every ship/boat in the Navy or CG or every ship/class of ship in Star Fleet are purpose built warships? I don't believe you can. Nor can you point out any comment that implies such. If you'll go back and read what I typed(which is a lot to ask apparently) you'll note I was referring to frigates, cruisers and destroyers and such as being warships in StarFleet, despite being multi role vessels. and if you will read back, you will see the statement you are denying is that Defiant was Starfleet's first PURPOSE BUILT WARSHIP. fact of the matter is, nobody''s denying that the various shows had a lot of incidents of people shooting at each other. nobody's denying that Starfleet is pretty darned good at the shooting. what we are pointing out is that the Enterprise is NOT the deep space version of the USS Missouri. The crew can't just pop home on a weekend pass to see the wife and kids. the ship is going to be home, and it is going to be home for years at a time. that gives you the option of having a crew that ends up single, whether they started out single or not; or allowing them to bring the family along. when you add the rather large civilian crew complement that gets even more significant. I've never denied the Defiant was a purpose built warship. I agreed she was. My argument is that simply because a Cruiser, for example, also has capabilities for science/exploration, etc, makes it no less a Warship. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 15, 2013 6:45:21 GMT
The Akira Class was a pure warship that began construction and entered service well before the Defiant. Akira class ships even fought the Borg in the Battle of Sector 001. Which is what they too were designed for. They entered service in 2368. They have many canon (on screen) appearances as indicated in the Memory Alpha* link. However, the fullest information about the Akira Class, comes from the Memory Beta Site.*Memory Alpha = Canon Reference, while Memory Beta = Officially Licensed Product Reference (books, RPGS and video games). So make of that what you will. Though it can't be denied the Akira class was in full production and active service , long before Defiant class ships were, as canon proves that. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 15, 2013 12:21:02 GMT
The Second Defiant* was a prototype that began construction two years before the Akira Class entered service, and which was launched four years later. On her test runs the Defiant nearly tore herself apart as she was badly overpowered for her size**, so the ship was mothballed and didn't enter production.
Work done on the ship after she was brought out of storage and stationed at DS9 showed that the design was practical, and by the time of the Dominion War the class had entered production - Hardly surprising considering that they were small, very powerful and required a very small crew by Starfleet standards.
(*The first USS Defiant appeared in TOS, and later (or earlier depending on your point of view) appeared on one of the last episodes of ST Enterprise.)
(**As the Defiant's top speed was significantly lower than every other starship class seen during TNG era one has to ask exactly what all this power was being used for. The logical answer would be weapons and shields.)
There is no specific claim or evidence that the Akira class was built or designed as a warship. It may have been refitted to act in that role by the start of the Dominion war, but then they were also using Galaxy, Miranda and Excelsior class ships in 'pure' military roles and we know that the Excelsior class was being upgraded to be a more capable combat craft just prior to the start of the war.
That in fact gives us a second option when it comes to the question of how 'military' starfleet designs were. From various sources it is implied if not said that Starfleet ships were designed with a lot of 'spare' space, and with systems (such as the bridge) being designed so they could be removed and replaced quickly.
The logical assumption here would be that Starfleet fitted specific ships with different systems depending on what they felt was needed at the time*. And that during times of war would refit many ships with stronger tactical systems. That would make the 'military' classifications an indication as to what the tactical version's fleet role would be and its relative strength.
(*This would be in keeping with at least two ship classes having 'pods' that contained equipment specific to certain roles, and which could be swapped out. We see this with both the old Miranda class and the much newer Nebula class. DS9's Danube class runabouts were also designed this way, although they were not starships.)
To me this makes sense on a lot of levels. It would give the Federation the ability to field a lot of combat oriented ships without having to increase ship production, allow them to honestly say they were not building warships - as that was not what most of the ships would be fitted as. And it probably helped keep older classes in service for longer, since if they became unsuitable for one role you could refit them for something else fairly easily.
I left out refuelling/resupplying at sea (or in Trek in space) because a ship that is exploring the great unknown doesn't have this option. A prerequisite for this is the ability to protect the supply ship, which is something you can't guarantee off your own patrol routes or during wartime when you are facing an enemy that can track these ships down.
Incidentally, resupplying at sea goes back a lot longer than the link you provided says. The Royal Navy was doing this in the 1700's, and it was in fact the reason they were able to blockade the French ports so well. Of course the supplies in question didn't include fuel, but did include food, water and space parts.
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Post by the light works on Aug 15, 2013 13:45:30 GMT
It would be more logical to assume the extra power in the DS9 Defiant was used for acceleration. That would be consistent with the ship's mission profile. you don't have to outrun the enemy ship - just outsprint them. they could also have used it for better maneuvering capabilities; which would also stress the structural integrity.
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 15, 2013 16:12:01 GMT
The Second Defiant* was a prototype that began construction two years before the Akira Class entered service, and which was launched four years later. On her test runs the Defiant nearly tore herself apart as she was badly overpowered for her size**, so the ship was mothballed and didn't enter production. Work done on the ship after she was brought out of storage and stationed at DS9 showed that the design was practical, and by the time of the Dominion War the class had entered production - Hardly surprising considering that they were small, very powerful and required a very small crew by Starfleet standards. (*The first USS Defiant appeared in TOS, and later (or earlier depending on your point of view) appeared on one of the last episodes of ST Enterprise.) (**As the Defiant's top speed was significantly lower than every other starship class seen during TNG era one has to ask exactly what all this power was being used for. The logical answer would be weapons and shields.) There is no specific claim or evidence that the Akira class was built or designed as a warship. It may have been refitted to act in that role by the start of the Dominion war, but then they were also using Galaxy, Miranda and Excelsior class ships in 'pure' military roles and we know that the Excelsior class was being upgraded to be a more capable combat craft just prior to the start of the war. That in fact gives us a second option when it comes to the question of how 'military' starfleet designs were. From various sources it is implied if not said that Starfleet ships were designed with a lot of 'spare' space, and with systems (such as the bridge) being designed so they could be removed and replaced quickly. The logical assumption here would be that Starfleet fitted specific ships with different systems depending on what they felt was needed at the time*. And that during times of war would refit many ships with stronger tactical systems. That would make the 'military' classifications an indication as to what the tactical version's fleet role would be and its relative strength. (*This would be in keeping with at least two ship classes having 'pods' that contained equipment specific to certain roles, and which could be swapped out. We see this with both the old Miranda class and the much newer Nebula class. DS9's Danube class runabouts were also designed this way, although they were not starships.) To me this makes sense on a lot of levels. It would give the Federation the ability to field a lot of combat oriented ships without having to increase ship production, allow them to honestly say they were not building warships - as that was not what most of the ships would be fitted as. And it probably helped keep older classes in service for longer, since if they became unsuitable for one role you could refit them for something else fairly easily. I left out refuelling/resupplying at sea (or in Trek in space) because a ship that is exploring the great unknown doesn't have this option. A prerequisite for this is the ability to protect the supply ship, which is something you can't guarantee off your own patrol routes or during wartime when you are facing an enemy that can track these ships down. Incidentally, resupplying at sea goes back a lot longer than the link you provided says. The Royal Navy was doing this in the 1700's, and it was in fact the reason they were able to blockade the French ports so well. Of course the supplies in question didn't include fuel, but did include food, water and space parts. The earlier USS Defiant was a Constitution class ship. While the later USS Defiant was a Defiant class ship, as was the 3rd USS Defiant, which been previously named the USS São Paulo, but was renamed Defiant after the previous ship was destroyed and DS9 had another Defiant Class ship assigned as a replacement. While the prototype of the Defiant class "may" have been built before a prototype Akira class, the Akira was clearly in production and service, while the Defiant prototype was still mothballed. Like I said, you have to go away from canon and into officially licensed to find out much about the Akira specifications, -------- UNREP can be handled in different ways, one is for a single exploratory vessel to meet up with a supply vessel (either capable of defending itself or protected by a fleet) or have a fleet of ships carrying their resupplying ships with them. I can't point to a particular episode of TNG, but I seem to recall the Enterprise going way out to the "middle of nowhere", to resupplying at least one exploration/research vessel, at least once, but I'm thinking it happened more than once. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 15, 2013 19:01:08 GMT
They never resupplied ships, although they did provide assistance for ships that were damaged or otherwise in trouble by providing space parts. But it seems that such aid was with the intention of allowing those ships to return to a base under their own power for full repairs.
They did however resupply several science stations and groups - as in fact did Kirks Enterprise.
Care has to be taken when using 'official' but none-cannon sources for Trek, as these can be over ruled in episodes - even when the source in question was something like TNG's technical manual which was used as part of that shows 'bible'.
Some of the material can be used as a rough guide - such as the principles on which Starfleet designed its ships and built them.
In the case of the Akira class, it seems logical to assume that the design was around prior to the battle of Wolf 359. This is because of the time it took to design and build ships - the Galaxy class took something like 20 years, the Defiant four - and the Defiant was a 'rushed' design.
It is likely that the Akira was originally designed along the same lines as most Starfleet ships were - a multirole explorer that could be refitted for more specialised roles as needed. If, however, the ship entered service post-Wolf 359 then Starfleet would most likely have realised that it needed more combat oriented ships in service and quickly, before someone decided to try and take advantage of the weakened fleet.
If the Akira class was just entering production at this time, it would make sense to outfit such ships for the combat role rather than pulling other ships from their existing duties for refitting.
The idea that the Akira class was intended as a 'pure' warship comes from its inclusion in Star Trek Online, where is is classified as a heavy escort.
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 15, 2013 20:07:20 GMT
They never resupplied ships, although they did provide assistance for ships that were damaged or otherwise in trouble by providing space parts. But it seems that such aid was with the intention of allowing those ships to return to a base under their own power for full repairs. They did however resupply several science stations and groups - as in fact did Kirks Enterprise. Care has to be taken when using 'official' but none-cannon sources for Trek, as these can be over ruled in episodes - even when the source in question was something like TNG's technical manual which was used as part of that shows 'bible'. Some of the material can be used as a rough guide - such as the principles on which Starfleet designed its ships and built them. In the case of the Akira class, it seems logical to assume that the design was around prior to the battle of Wolf 359. This is because of the time it took to design and build ships - the Galaxy class took something like 20 years, the Defiant four - and the Defiant was a 'rushed' design. It is likely that the Akira was originally designed along the same lines as most Starfleet ships were - a multirole explorer that could be refitted for more specialised roles as needed. If, however, the ship entered service post-Wolf 359 then Starfleet would most likely have realised that it needed more combat oriented ships in service and quickly, before someone decided to try and take advantage of the weakened fleet. If the Akira class was just entering production at this time, it would make sense to outfit such ships for the combat role rather than pulling other ships from their existing duties for refitting. The idea that the Akira class was intended as a 'pure' warship comes from its inclusion in Star Trek Online, where is is classified as a heavy escort. Actually, the Akira, per the canon references (Memory Alpha) and the official licensed reference (Memory Beta)was a Heavy Cruiser. I agree, you have to be careful comparing non canon to canon, but the two often support one another. For example, the officially licensed info about her weapons/armor, support the devastation the Akira classes were able to deal out and the amount of damage they could take, on screen. Also, the officially licensed info about the Akira flight deck/shuttle bay taking up 1/3 of the saucer section and being able to launch craft out the front while receiving craft from the rear and having a complement of 40 attack fighters, is supported by the "8 waves of fighters" sent against the Cardassian fleet during Operation Return in DS9 episode Sacrifice of Angels. Fighter link (canon reference)The Akira canon reference crewing of 500officers and 1500 crew, would be consistent, of a warship of that size, with the number and amount of weapons systems and fighter carrying/servicing facilities and damage control needs. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 15, 2013 20:34:24 GMT
The problem is that the Akira class ships we see were in service in the middle of two major wars - the second of which the Federation had several years to plan for.
Meaning that Starfleet would have a good reason to modify designs to be 'purer' warships. The Akira would be a good choice for this, the ship would be large enough to be really effective while not so large as to take forever to construct.
Incidentally the Akira was not the only class of ship to have its main shuttle bay located at the front of the primary hull. The Sabre class also had its shuttle bay located there.
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