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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 15, 2013 21:01:16 GMT
The problem is that the Akira class ships we see were in service in the middle of two major wars - the second of which the Federation had several years to plan for. Meaning that Starfleet would have a good reason to modify designs to be 'purer' warships. The Akira would be a good choice for this, the ship would be large enough to be really effective while not so large as to take forever to construct. Incidentally the Akira was not the only class of ship to have its main shuttle bay located at the front of the primary hull. The Sabre class also had its shuttle bay located there. I guess I wasn't clear enough. The Akira, according to licensed reference, shuttle bay/flight deck, ran the full length of the saucer section and thus operated much as a aircraft carrier does today. Launching from the front and recovering from the rear. The shuttle bay takes up about 1/3 of the saucer section. That's a BIG shuttle bay and has to be to accommodate 40 fighters, any other shuttles, flight operations, maintainance, rearming and so on. (Another reference I have on my other computer, lists the shuttle bay/flight deck and part of the service and storage bays as encompassing 3full decks. Akira class Memory Beta |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 15, 2013 21:23:44 GMT
The problem is that the Akira class ships we see were in service in the middle of two major wars - the second of which the Federation had several years to plan for. Meaning that Starfleet would have a good reason to modify designs to be 'purer' warships. The Akira would be a good choice for this, the ship would be large enough to be really effective while not so large as to take forever to construct. Incidentally the Akira was not the only class of ship to have its main shuttle bay located at the front of the primary hull. The Sabre class also had its shuttle bay located there. I guess I wasn't clear enough. The Akira, according to licensed reference, shuttle bay/flight deck, ran the full length of the saucer section and thus operated much as a aircraft carrier does today. Launching from the front and recovering from the rear. The shuttle bay takes up about 1/3 of the saucer section. That's a BIG shuttle bay and has to be to accommodate 40 fighters, any other shuttles, flight operations, maintainance, re-arming and so on. (Another reference I have on my other computer, lists the shuttle bay/flight deck and part of the service and storage bays as encompassing parts of 7 decks. Akira class Memory BetaEdit: For full disclosure, I hunted down my reference for Akira class deck layout. Here it is. though it appears to not be licensed as far as I can tell. It may simply be fan based. Anyway, there it is. Help me or hurt me, canon, licensed or fan based, it is all fiction to begin with.  (Though the Memory Beta and memory alpha info, still stand)  Note, I used to be able to rattle off Akira class specs, like I had served on one.  the ST based RPG that Typ and I were in, was set aboard an Akira. I have not looked at all my reference materials since the site we played on crashed and we lost 3 years of great RP'ing. 1 of my main characters was a bridge/command officer. It's been so long I don't recall his name or rank, other than he was pretty junior and would have had Bridge Watch on the less desirable of shifts. My main character was a SFMC Master Sergeant. (Our game had non canon elements, but we followed canon where possible) One of my side characters was a female Chief Petty Officer, who was in charge of one of the flight deck/shuttle maint bays and was the love interest of my MSGT. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 16, 2013 5:32:58 GMT
From Memory Alpha:
"Development on the Defiant began around 2366 in response to the Borg threat. Although officially classified as an escort vessel, the Defiant was nothing less than Starfleet's first design of warship; intended to fight, and ultimately defeat, the Borg. The vessel featured minimal equipment for scientific research and was not designed to accommodate families. (DS9: "The Search, Part I") "
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 16, 2013 12:11:59 GMT
Since no Trek show ever had a scene set on am Akira class ship, and that deck plan is the type used in engineering displays on ships, I'd go with fan-made.
The official deck plan designs, at least for TNG era*, are not really all that helpful anyway. As they were never intended to be filmed close enough for anyone to make out the details - which on the Enterprise D included the little snippet that the power for the ship was really provided by a giant Hamster running in a wheel.
Off the top of head the only 'official' deck plans would be for (deep breath); Constitution, Miranda, Oberth, Excelsior, Galaxy, Defiant, Intrepid, Sovereign and NX classes*
(*I *think* that the deck plans for the NX ships were computer displays rather than the large fixed displays used in earlier series. I seem to recall several occasions where the crew were looking at the ships plans and were able to manipulate the image they were looking at.)
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 16, 2013 14:14:35 GMT
Since no Trek show ever had a scene set on am Akira class ship, and that deck plan is the type used in engineering displays on ships, I'd go with fan-made. The official deck plan designs, at least for TNG era*, are not really all that helpful anyway. As they were never intended to be filmed close enough for anyone to make out the details - which on the Enterprise D included the little snippet that the power for the ship was really provided by a giant Hamster running in a wheel. Off the top of head the only 'official' deck plans would be for (deep breath); Constitution, Miranda, Oberth, Excelsior, Galaxy, Defiant, Intrepid, Sovereign and NX classes* (*I *think* that the deck plans for the NX ships were computer displays rather than the large fixed displays used in earlier series. I seem to recall several occasions where the crew were looking at the ships plans and were able to manipulate the image they were looking at.) Though the reference "could" be a reproduced copy of a licensed plan from a RPG or similar. We will never know. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 16, 2013 14:24:08 GMT
From Memory Alpha: "Development on the Defiant began around 2366 in response to the Borg threat. Although officially classified as an escort vessel, the Defiant was nothing less than Starfleet's first design of warship; intended to fight, and ultimately defeat, the Borg. The vessel featured minimal equipment for scientific research and was not designed to accommodate families. (DS9: "The Search, Part I") " Yes, we already know what memory alpha says. We also know that canon, despite being right, because it is canon, can't be right 100 percent of the time, as it has on several occasions contradicted itself with facts that just can not be.* * Jokingly/half seriously, I've said here on this site, at least once that I recall, and numerous time on the old forums that "all these mistakes in canon can simply be explained by the Temporal Cold War." |
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Post by the light works on Aug 16, 2013 14:36:24 GMT
From Memory Alpha: "Development on the Defiant began around 2366 in response to the Borg threat. Although officially classified as an escort vessel, the Defiant was nothing less than Starfleet's first design of warship; intended to fight, and ultimately defeat, the Borg. The vessel featured minimal equipment for scientific research and was not designed to accommodate families. (DS9: "The Search, Part I") " Yes, we already know what memory alpha says. We also know that canon, despite being right, because it is canon, can't be right 100 percent of the time, as it has on several occasions contradicted itself with facts that just can not be.* * Jokingly/half seriously, I've said here on this site, at least once that I recall, and numerous time on the old forums that "all these mistakes in canon can simply be explained by the Temporal Cold War." I seem to recall the quote being used in a DS9 episode; but I was not allowed to search youtube for it last night since I am currently in the same room with the TV, and extra sounds are forbidden. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 16, 2013 15:22:34 GMT
Trials and Tribble-ations, The DS9 episode made to celebrate the 30 year anniversary of Trek.
Sisko said something about how the crew of the Defiant would have been the first to know if they had changed the time line. The reply from the temporal investigators was along the lines of 'why do they always say that?' and 'we could be living in an alternative time line and not even know it'.
The term 'temporal cold war' was coined for Star Trek Enterprise and did not appear either by name or implication in the TNG era.
The closest would be TNG's 'Captains Holiday', where time travellers came back in time to try and get their hands on a super-weapon. But this wasn't an attempt to change the past - beyond possibly trying to stop Picard from destroying the weapon.
'Year of Hell' on Voyager did have deliberate changing of the time line, but this was overt and only involved one species trying to tamper with the time line.
All other occasions of time travel in TNG era were accidental.
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 16, 2013 15:33:44 GMT
The designers comments about the Akira models used for production, support her being a warship. Akira class model |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 16, 2013 15:41:48 GMT
Trials and Tribble-ations, The DS9 episode made to celebrate the 30 year anniversary of Trek. Sisko said something about how the crew of the Defiant would have been the first to know if they had changed the time line. The reply from the temporal investigators was along the lines of 'why do they always say that?' and 'we could be living in an alternative time line and not even know it'. The term 'temporal cold war' was coined for Star Trek Enterprise and did not appear either by name or implication in the TNG era. The closest would be TNG's 'Captains Holiday', where time travellers came back in time to try and get their hands on a super-weapon. But this wasn't an attempt to change the past - beyond possibly trying to stop Picard from destroying the weapon. 'Year of Hell' on Voyager did have deliberate changing of the time line, but this was overt and only involved one species trying to tamper with the time line. All other occasions of time travel in TNG era were accidental. Per canon, it doesn't matter if the Temporal Cold Wars were mentioned in TNG or later series. It was used on screen in Enterprise, which precedes all the other series, timeline wise and thus is applicable to all the series. But in reality, it is one of the contradictions with canon to which I was referring. |
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Post by wvengineer on Aug 16, 2013 17:33:57 GMT
The problem with ST cannon is that there it does not exist. Even before you get into the Temporal Cold War, ST's cannon was screwed up beyond fixing. Partially it is because the series was started in the '60's when people's ideas of space were a lot more idealistic than reality. Partially is is because writers were ore concerned about the story than history. It was only well after TOS that they start trying to get the ST timeline to jive with the real history.
In ST, humans start launching sleeper ships to other solar systems in the early 90's with the Eugenics wars in the middle of it. This is all conveniently forgotten when Voyager visits California in the mid 90's. *
One I notice a last Week: In Space Seed, when Khan takes over the Enterprise, he makes a point of saying that he needs the crew to fly the ship. The 84 people he has is not enough. Later when he takes over the Reliant, with a max of 65 people (84 origional + 1 wife - 20 killed by the Ceti-eel) he not only had enough people to take over this ship, but also fly into combat.
* I am in the process or re-watching ST:E on Netflix, start to finish, and just finished Season 3. I haven't gotten to the Soong episodes yet. So maybe I missed something.
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 16, 2013 18:50:34 GMT
The problem with ST cannon is that there Uncle Jack. it does not exist. Even before you get into the Temporal Cold War, ST's cannon was screwed up beyond fixing. Partially it is because the series was started in the '60's when people's ideas of space were a lot more idealistic than reality. Partially is is because writers were ore concerned about the story than history. It was only well after TOS that they start trying to get the ST timeline to jive with the real history. In ST, humans start launching sleeper ships to other solar systems in the early 90's with the Eugenics wars in the middle of it. This is all conveniently forgotten when Voyager visits California in the mid 90's. * One I notice a last Week: In Space Seed, when Khan takes over the Enterprise, he makes a point of saying that he needs the crew to fly the ship. The 84 people he has is not enough. Later when he takes over the Reliant, with a max of 65 people (84 origional + 1 wife - 20 killed by the Ceti-eel) he not only had enough people to take over this ship, but also fly into combat. * I am in the process or re-watching ST:E on Netflix, start to finish, and just finished Season 3. I haven't gotten to the Soong episodes yet. So maybe I missed something. No denying that canon is messed up! Though the sleeper ships may not have been mentioned in the episode of Voyager you mentioned*, they were mentioned in a Voyager episode. Sleeper ships at Memory Alpha.Harry Kim's Uncle Jack.Stasis* I don't recall the episode you mentioned, but why "would or should" they have mentioned sleeper ships in the context/plot of that episode? |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 16, 2013 18:56:48 GMT
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Post by the light works on Aug 17, 2013 8:51:55 GMT
Trials and Tribble-ations, The DS9 episode made to celebrate the 30 year anniversary of Trek. Sisko said something about how the crew of the Defiant would have been the first to know if they had changed the time line. The reply from the temporal investigators was along the lines of 'why do they always say that?' and 'we could be living in an alternative time line and not even know it'. The term 'temporal cold war' was coined for Star Trek Enterprise and did not appear either by name or implication in the TNG era. The closest would be TNG's 'Captains Holiday', where time travellers came back in time to try and get their hands on a super-weapon. But this wasn't an attempt to change the past - beyond possibly trying to stop Picard from destroying the weapon. 'Year of Hell' on Voyager did have deliberate changing of the time line, but this was overt and only involved one species trying to tamper with the time line. All other occasions of time travel in TNG era were accidental. You misread. I was referring to the quote about Defiant being the first purpose built warship. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 17, 2013 18:59:52 GMT
More on the issue of canon. Star Trek CanonIt would appear that Roddenberry was a major contributor to how screwed up canon is. |
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Post by the light works on Aug 18, 2013 14:05:50 GMT
More on the issue of canon. Star Trek CanonIt would appear that Roddenberry was a major contributor to how screwed up canon is. that seems to happen a lot with people who design something to be episodic, rather than continuous. George Lucas has some of the same tendencies. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 18, 2013 14:57:32 GMT
It is hardly surprising that Trek Canon is less consistent that War's.
First because Trek was designed as a TV show that (hopefully) would enter the syndication market - and networks have (or had) a strong preference for shows who's episodes could be aired in any order.
Second is simply the number of episodes and stories that Trek told - 714, excluding the Animated Series and the reboot films.
Wars, in comparison, was a film series that told one story - that of Anikin Skywalker. All the expanded universe stuff effectively revolved around this directly (the reformation of the Jedi Order and the decline of the Empire), echoed it (The Old Republic era) or tied into it in some way (The technology of the ships).
It could even be argued that at the basic level Wars was more about characters, and as such keeping the technology and universe as consistent and unchanging as possible helped keep the focus on the characters rather than the universe. While Trek was more about the setting and technology, which had to evolve and could push the characters into the background story wise.
Yes, this is not how we see or think of these two shows - we tend to think of Trek as being more character driven and Wars as more technology/force driven. But if you look at the underlying structures of the respective franchises you should notice that Technology in Trek is frequently a far more important element in the stories than it is in Trek - especially in TNG era....
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Post by the light works on Aug 18, 2013 15:17:27 GMT
It is hardly surprising that Trek Canon is less consistent that War's. First because Trek was designed as a TV show that (hopefully) would enter the syndication market - and networks have (or had) a strong preference for shows who's episodes could be aired in any order. Second is simply the number of episodes and stories that Trek told - 714, excluding the Animated Series and the reboot films. Wars, in comparison, was a film series that told one story - that of Anikin Skywalker. All the expanded universe stuff effectively revolved around this directly (the reformation of the Jedi Order and the decline of the Empire), echoed it (The Old Republic era) or tied into it in some way (The technology of the ships). It could even be argued that at the basic level Wars was more about characters, and as such keeping the technology and universe as consistent and unchanging as possible helped keep the focus on the characters rather than the universe. While Trek was more about the setting and technology, which had to evolve and could push the characters into the background story wise. Yes, this is not how we see or think of these two shows - we tend to think of Trek as being more character driven and Wars as more technology/force driven. But if you look at the underlying structures of the respective franchises you should notice that Technology in Trek is frequently a far more important element in the stories than it is in Trek - especially in TNG era.... again, you misread me. I was saying that Wars, in 6 movies, had continuity issues as bad as Trek had over their 714 episodes and movies. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Aug 19, 2013 15:42:01 GMT
More on the issue of canon. Star Trek CanonIt would appear that Roddenberry was a major contributor to how screwed up canon is. that seems to happen a lot with people who design something to be episodic, rather than continuous. George Lucas has some of the same tendencies. Honestly, I read the comments about Roddenberry and interpreted them as Roddenberry having "the big head" syndrome, of "I created Trek, so I am God", type of thing and "if I don't like it, it's not canon, because I am the Trek God". So, IMO, he was more the The Great Big Headed Bird, than the Great Bird. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 19, 2013 17:01:40 GMT
that seems to happen a lot with people who design something to be episodic, rather than continuous. George Lucas has some of the same tendencies. Honestly, I read the comments about Roddenberry and interpreted them as Roddenberry having "the big head" syndrome, of "I created Trek, so I am God", type of thing and "if I don't like it, it's not canon, because I am the Trek God". So, IMO, he was more the The Great Big Headed Bird, than the Great Bird. That in itself wouldn't have been a problem if he had possessed a clear vision of what Trek was about - beyond 'free love*' - didn't change things just for the hell of it and hadn't allowed his ego to get the better of him. It is interesting to note that the more successful series (TNG and DS9) were not produced directly by him, but in conjunction with others. It is also interesting to note that the least popular series (Voy and ENT) were produced by people who GR had hand-picked and themselves fell into the ego trap. (*Something that according to various accounts he liked to practice himself, at least once with two female cast members from TOS at the same time while it was still being filmed....) GL, whatever else you might think of him, doesn't seem to have fallen into quite the same trap. But them he's only had to write six stories, while GR ended up writing 16 - including The Motion Picture. It seems that GL was content to create the universe, and then deal with maintaining consistency as much as possible rather than trying to micromanage everything going on in other stories. Where GL has 'changed' things it seems to have been with an eye to making things more logical in terms of the story he was writing at the time - principally in terms of altering the date at which some things occurred. |
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the ST based RPG that Typ and I were in, was set aboard an Akira. I have not looked at all my reference materials since the site we played on crashed and we lost 3 years of great RP'ing. 
