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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 17, 2013 14:41:29 GMT
Not a circle at all. It doesn't take a genius to know that you can't drive a car equipped with one type tires, the same as you would the same car equipped with a different type of tire. I've driven a lot of snow over the years. Both with snow tires and with all season tires. I'm not afraid to drive all season tires in the same conditions I've driven snow tires. I would drive differently and get along just fine. I think my brother was doing around 20 when he stuffed our parents car into a ditch. with all season tires. on "frost" as for me. the Acura started feeling scary at around 25 on frost, without the winter tires on it. keep in mind that this is a guy who used to ski an average of 3 days a week during college. so yes, if you drive in such a manner that all season tires get along just fine, you will be just fine with all season tires. but if you don't want the heavy morning frost to interfere with your commute, then it is worth investing the 4 feet of garage space in winter tires. I'm wondering if your meaning of Frost is not the same as Frost to me. From digging around on google, Portland, Oregon and Frost seems mean ICE rather than Frost proper.
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Post by kharnynb on Oct 17, 2013 15:10:13 GMT
Since we can't drive 30 for 5 months out of the year, we switch to either spiked or "kitka" tires. But they do lower the max speeds on main roads to 80 kph for the winter.
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Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 15:17:24 GMT
I think my brother was doing around 20 when he stuffed our parents car into a ditch. with all season tires. on "frost" as for me. the Acura started feeling scary at around 25 on frost, without the winter tires on it. keep in mind that this is a guy who used to ski an average of 3 days a week during college. so yes, if you drive in such a manner that all season tires get along just fine, you will be just fine with all season tires. but if you don't want the heavy morning frost to interfere with your commute, then it is worth investing the 4 feet of garage space in winter tires. I'm wondering if your meaning of Frost is not the same as Frost to me. From digging around on google, Portland, Oregon and Frost seems mean ICE rather than Frost proper. frost is ice deposited from airborne humidity, rather than from freezing rain, packed snow, or standing water. and yes, we get it heavy enough to cause problems.
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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 17, 2013 17:01:03 GMT
I'm wondering if your meaning of Frost is not the same as Frost to me. From digging around on google, Portland, Oregon and Frost seems mean ICE rather than Frost proper. frost is ice deposited from airborne humidity, rather than from freezing rain, packed snow, or standing water. and yes, we get it heavy enough to cause problems. You know that Ice can form on surfaces from airborne humidity, right? Frost is, after all, just a form of ice. I'm still thinking it is a difference of use of the term. What you call frost, I don't think is the same as what I call frost. I'm thinking what you call frost, we call ice. Google up a picture of what you call frost on your roads. I'll look at it, then we will know.
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Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 17:24:19 GMT
frost is ice deposited from airborne humidity, rather than from freezing rain, packed snow, or standing water. and yes, we get it heavy enough to cause problems. You know that Ice can form on surfaces from airborne humidity, right? Frost is, after all, just a form of ice. I'm still thinking it is a difference of use of the term. What you call frost, I don't think is the same as what I call frost. I'm thinking what you call frost, we call ice. Google up a picture of what you call frost on your roads. I'll look at it, then we will know. If you live in southerly latitudes, it is quite likely. this is the first I could come up with on short notice. photos.oregonlive.com/photogallery/2010/10/road_ascending_out_of_the_fros.html I'm seeing a little frost showing on the roadway, but it's hard to tell from the picture whether the road is slick with frost or not. addendum: thing about it is, while you see white fuzzies at the shoulders, after a couple cars, frost on the roads just looks wet - there's not much to see in pictures. unless someone hits something, of course, then you see the odd tire marks and the bits of plastic they leave behind.
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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 17, 2013 18:23:10 GMT
You know that Ice can form on surfaces from airborne humidity, right? Frost is, after all, just a form of ice. I'm still thinking it is a difference of use of the term. What you call frost, I don't think is the same as what I call frost. I'm thinking what you call frost, we call ice. Google up a picture of what you call frost on your roads. I'll look at it, then we will know. If you live in southerly latitudes, it is quite likely. this is the first I could come up with on short notice. photos.oregonlive.com/photogallery/2010/10/road_ascending_out_of_the_fros.html I'm seeing a little frost showing on the roadway, but it's hard to tell from the picture whether the road is slick with frost or not. addendum: thing about it is, while you see white fuzzies at the shoulders, after a couple cars, frost on the roads just looks wet - there's not much to see in pictures. unless someone hits something, of course, then you see the odd tire marks and the bits of plastic they leave behind. Yeah, I'm thinking that's ice in my neck of the woods. Here for example, we are either going to scrape "frost" of the windows or scrape ice off the windows and there is either going to be frost on the road or ice on the road. Depending on the humidity and how the temps were. Here, ice on the road from freezing dew, is almost almost always of the Black Ice/Clear Ice variety and typically on bridges or in the bottoms. Frost (white frost) on the road, really isn't all that problematic here and all but the baldest of tires handle it with ease. Which is why I got the "snickers" at snow tires for Frost. It finally hit me, we probably ain't talking about the same thing.
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Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 18:33:17 GMT
If you live in southerly latitudes, it is quite likely. this is the first I could come up with on short notice. photos.oregonlive.com/photogallery/2010/10/road_ascending_out_of_the_fros.html I'm seeing a little frost showing on the roadway, but it's hard to tell from the picture whether the road is slick with frost or not. addendum: thing about it is, while you see white fuzzies at the shoulders, after a couple cars, frost on the roads just looks wet - there's not much to see in pictures. unless someone hits something, of course, then you see the odd tire marks and the bits of plastic they leave behind. Yeah, I'm thinking that's ice in my neck of the woods. Here for example, we are either going to scrape "frost" of the windows or scrape ice off the windows and there is either going to be frost on the road or ice on the road. Depending on the humidity and how the temps were. Here, ice on the road from freezing dew, is almost almost always of the Black Ice/Clear Ice variety and typically on bridges or in the bottoms. Frost (white frost) on the road, really isn't all that problematic here and all but the baldest of tires handle it with ease. Which is why I got the "snickers" at snow tires for Frost. It finally hit me, we probably ain't talking about the same thing. here, it depends on the speaker. for one of our local radio announcers, black ice refers to any time the road surface is below 40 degrees. for most of the rest of us it comes from having the road start out wet, and then freeze. - which also happens around here from rain or poor drainage. (there are a few places where the road is almost perpetually wet)
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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 17, 2013 20:00:13 GMT
Yeah, I'm thinking that's ice in my neck of the woods. Here for example, we are either going to scrape "frost" of the windows or scrape ice off the windows and there is either going to be frost on the road or ice on the road. Depending on the humidity and how the temps were. Here, ice on the road from freezing dew, is almost almost always of the Black Ice/Clear Ice variety and typically on bridges or in the bottoms. Frost (white frost) on the road, really isn't all that problematic here and all but the baldest of tires handle it with ease. Which is why I got the "snickers" at snow tires for Frost. It finally hit me, we probably ain't talking about the same thing. here, it depends on the speaker. for one of our local radio announcers, black ice refers to any time the road surface is below 40 degrees. for most of the rest of us it comes from having the road start out wet, and then freeze. - which also happens around here from rain or poor drainage. (there are a few places where the road is almost perpetually wet) Here, we can get a lot of moisture up from the gulf, so we get heavy dew and wets everything, then a cold front moves quickly down out the northwest and causes it to freeze over night. The majority of our bad winter precipitation is due to gulf moisture from the south and cold fronts from the northwest. Some times they converge here, sometimes further west or further east. The majority of winter precipitation that moves this way from the northwest, without meeting moisture from the south, peters out before it gets here or the snow is so dry that it doesn't cause much problems.
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Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 20:09:52 GMT
here, it depends on the speaker. for one of our local radio announcers, black ice refers to any time the road surface is below 40 degrees. for most of the rest of us it comes from having the road start out wet, and then freeze. - which also happens around here from rain or poor drainage. (there are a few places where the road is almost perpetually wet) Here, we can get a lot of moisture up from the gulf, so we get heavy dew and wets everything, then a cold front moves quickly down out the northwest and causes it to freeze over night. The majority of our bad winter precipitation is due to gulf moisture from the south and cold fronts from the northwest. Some times they converge here, sometimes further west or further east. The majority of winter precipitation that moves this way from the northwest, without meeting moisture from the south, peters out before it gets here or the snow is so dry that it doesn't cause much problems. here we don't tend to see that moisture pattern. I think probably because our ocean is colder, we don't often get conditions where we get dew preceeding the freeze - so the density of the ice depends on how hard the freeze is and how rapidly the temperature drops. a lot of times, it sounds like we have the thickness that you have, but the crystal character of frost. and when we do get snow, it is usually heavy and wet in character.
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Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 20:12:17 GMT
I've seen a few times driving home at night, the car has developed about an eighth inch thick layer of ice on all the leading edges, from the pressure wave forcing moisture out of the air.
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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 17, 2013 22:32:06 GMT
Here, we can get a lot of moisture up from the gulf, so we get heavy dew and wets everything, then a cold front moves quickly down out the northwest and causes it to freeze over night. The majority of our bad winter precipitation is due to gulf moisture from the south and cold fronts from the northwest. Some times they converge here, sometimes further west or further east. The majority of winter precipitation that moves this way from the northwest, without meeting moisture from the south, peters out before it gets here or the snow is so dry that it doesn't cause much problems. here we don't tend to see that moisture pattern. I think probably because our ocean is colder, we don't often get conditions where we get dew preceeding the freeze - so the density of the ice depends on how hard the freeze is and how rapidly the temperature drops. a lot of times, it sounds like we have the thickness that you have, but the crystal character of frost. and when we do get snow, it is usually heavy and wet in character. Yep, we get the heavy wet snow too, when the moisture from the gulf combines with the cold from the northwest. The counties closest to the Mississippi River get the worst snow and ice, as the storm picks up moisture extra moisture from the river. The Mississippi and Ohio Rivers play a big part in the estimated forecasts for snowfall. The counties closest to the rivers will have estimates significantly higher, then the estimates drop off the further from the rivers. In the summer we often get heavier rain and more severe storms on this side of the river, after the storms gain moisture/energy from the river.
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 18, 2013 6:41:03 GMT
A WHUTbook?... Remember I am a "bloody limey". Here we have Tachographs, we dont have to manually enter driver hours. Chains on the truck are either in storage bins under the cab, behind the wind defector between cab and trailer, on the trailer, or hanging about behind the cab on that bulkhead above the Suzie's. I tend to want to keep them locked in the storage space, because I have seen chains "Walk", just when you were not expecting that... we all know who's taken them, but that is no bloody good when you are 200 mile from home is it?... As in, we have a thief amongst us, who has no problem re-assigning company property to his own truck without asking.
Storage of chains, may I refer you to an earlier post where I stated I do not set out on any journey if I know I will have to use chains to reach the destination.... Therefore, chains are reactive to the unexpected. My Car chains are kept in the trunk inside the spare wheel because that is where I KNOW they are going to be, without moving about and getting tangles in other things... I also keep the tow cable and jump leads in the wheel well there. (Wire?... yes, its an ex- Lift cable rated at about 10 times the braking strain of an equivalent weight rope...) I do not go about with a loaded boot, I keep it organized, so getting into that space is relatively easy, I wouldnt have to take anything else out of the boot to do that.... Plus its also where I keep my Coat, and if I am chaining up, I would want that. And Gloves. And the bit of bar I use to help persuade the chains into place--- they are a snug fit. And other tools should they be needed. Such as Carpet which can be stuck under wheels to give grip if I get sideways into a snow bank... So That would be even easier than storing under a seat, which may just be full of a child if I have the kids in the car...
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 18, 2013 6:50:14 GMT
Frost or Ice that is white, I have no problem with. BLACK ice.... Now that is the danger here in UK.
Black ice is the ice that looks just like a puddle of water on the road... and in truth, it was, its just that it got cold, and now that puddle has "Set"?...
This usually creates a dark puddle of frozen water that is the same colour as the road tarmac surface that you just cant see.
On most of my driven vehicles I have a temp sensor for outside air. If that goes below 1degC, or waivers between over and under freezing, I set my default parania to any water looking parts of the road being frozen...
It amazes me sometimes that some people are such fools that even though they had to scrape the frost of the windscreen they expect road surface water to STILL be water?... At all other times my usual suspicion that its human nature to be slightly stupid at least most of the time takes its proper hold....
In those conditions, I EXPECT to have less grip than you expect, and obviously you are not so eager on the handling... Again this is why I demand that UK driving students should experience winter driving before they are given a full licence and abandoned.
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Post by the light works on Oct 18, 2013 14:05:19 GMT
A WHUTbook?... Remember I am a "bloody limey". Here we have Tachographs, we dont have to manually enter driver hours. Chains on the truck are either in storage bins under the cab, behind the wind defector between cab and trailer, on the trailer, or hanging about behind the cab on that bulkhead above the Suzie's. I tend to want to keep them locked in the storage space, because I have seen chains "Walk", just when you were not expecting that... we all know who's taken them, but that is no bloody good when you are 200 mile from home is it?... As in, we have a thief amongst us, who has no problem re-assigning company property to his own truck without asking. Storage of chains, may I refer you to an earlier post where I stated I do not set out on any journey if I know I will have to use chains to reach the destination.... Therefore, chains are reactive to the unexpected. My Car chains are kept in the trunk inside the spare wheel because that is where I KNOW they are going to be, without moving about and getting tangles in other things... I also keep the tow cable and jump leads in the wheel well there. (Wire?... yes, its an ex- Lift cable rated at about 10 times the braking strain of an equivalent weight rope...) I do not go about with a loaded boot, I keep it organized, so getting into that space is relatively easy, I wouldnt have to take anything else out of the boot to do that.... Plus its also where I keep my Coat, and if I am chaining up, I would want that. And Gloves. And the bit of bar I use to help persuade the chains into place--- they are a snug fit. And other tools should they be needed. Such as Carpet which can be stuck under wheels to give grip if I get sideways into a snow bank... So That would be even easier than storing under a seat, which may just be full of a child if I have the kids in the car... here,all drivers must maintain a logbook saying what hours they were driving, what hours they were not driving but still in a position of responsibility for their truck, and what hours they were free from responsibility, as well as what weights they were carrying while they were driving. I'm sure if you watch Ice Road Truckers, you have seen bits about the drivers not properly maintaining their logbooks. Tachograms may serve the same function if you are always driving the same truck and are the only driver for that truck; the logbook is tracking the driver. as for my coat - if there is a possibility I will need to chain up, my coat is usually attached to me. in fact, when there is no possibility I will need to chain up, my coat is still frequently attached to me. most of the time, here, professional drivers who are driving in "carry chains" conditions have a set of hooks on the frame rails where the chains are "racked" for quick and easy access. My grandfather typically carried the chains in his service truck, though. they are needed so rarely this close to the coast that it was faster and easier for him to simply deliver them as needed than to train all of his drivers to install them properly without his supervision. about your "bit of bar" though - unless you are referring to a wrench to set the tensioning cams, then you may want to consider if you are running chains that do not correctly fit your car. getting chains too tight is as bad as getting them too loose. here is how to install the model of diamond patterns I consider to be second rate because of the extra fuss and bother.
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Post by Antigone68104 on Oct 18, 2013 14:30:05 GMT
Some US trucking companies have switched to electronic logbooks, according to their "want a job driving for us?" ads.
I use all-weather tires year round and don't have a problem, but:
1) There are no garages at my apartment, so I don't have anywhere to store snow tires or jackstands (for the semiannual tire change)
2) I stick to snow emergency routes (roads that have the highest priority for plowing/salting/sanding) as much as possible in yucky weather. If I can manage to back out of the front parking area, I can do my entire commute to work on snow emergency routes. And the last time conditions were so bad I had trouble backing out of the parking area, they closed work because no one else could get in safely. (Too bad I had turned off my cell phone the previous night and didn't get the message until I'd sat at work for an hour.)
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Post by the light works on Oct 18, 2013 14:41:30 GMT
Some US trucking companies have switched to electronic logbooks, according to their "want a job driving for us?" ads. I use all-weather tires year round and don't have a problem, but: 1) There are no garages at my apartment, so I don't have anywhere to store snow tires or jackstands (for the semiannual tire change) 2) I stick to snow emergency routes (roads that have the highest priority for plowing/salting/sanding) as much as possible in yucky weather. If I can manage to back out of the front parking area, I can do my entire commute to work on snow emergency routes. And the last time conditions were so bad I had trouble backing out of the parking area, they closed work because no one else could get in safely. (Too bad I had turned off my cell phone the previous night and didn't get the message until I'd sat at work for an hour.) 1: Les Schwab stored the jackstands for me (tire dealer, for those out of the northwestern US) 2: the roads where I live almost always usually get plowed by the time the snow melts off naturally.
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Post by kharnynb on Oct 18, 2013 14:47:32 GMT
Here, city folk usually store their tyres in "tyrehotels that also swap the tyres out when you switch summer-winter and back.
Other than that, all weathers aren't very popular, since they are illegal in winter.
Usually we have summertyres that get swapped around october to winter ones and back in april ;D
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 19, 2013 8:58:36 GMT
We have two systems, old style paper tachographs which the driver has to keep on his person the last two weeks worth, and Digital cards, almost like bank cards, chip-and-pin type things, that hold a lot more. They both track the driver, we have strict maximum 9hrs driving, 10 hrs at a push, emergency 11 hrs if you are "Stranded", (Say stuck in the tailback of an accident and cant park up anywhere...) You must take a whole day off away from the truck at least once per fortnight, and 8hrs between a days driving and the next.
The Ice-Road system, I didnt quite understand, as that looks to me like it gets abused, and as some of them admit driving the whole of the John Dalton, a two day trip being sensible, in ONE, it kinda troubles me?...
I prefer our system. Here you are bound by law that you MUST stop after 8/9 hrs and not drive again... the tacho also registers speed as well. This stops the transport managers pressurising the drivers into "Pushing the limits", I cant do more than 55, and I MUST give up after a days driving. The digital one also prohibit me from trying to alter reality by scrapping the tacho and putting in a new one.
Coats limit manoeuvrability. In the truck, I keep mine on the passenger seat whilst working, or in the (passenger) footwell on top of the bag, its big and heavy. I noted that the Ice Road truckers tend to do the same thing, and take the coat off whilst driving...
This is close to the type of chains I use... REAL chains....
My bit of bar is a small 8 inch crowbar I use to tug chains into place, and stretch the Bungee cords I use as tensioners, its difficult doing that fiddly bits with gloves on?...
You mention racks on big-rigs, yes, I seen them, we dont have them in UK, plus if we did, things would get stolen when we stopped.... we are not quite as remote here, and it only takes the one time in your life that your chains get stolen to leave you totally (BEEEEEEEP)'ed, doesnt it?....
Back to road fools.... This is absolute priceless.... I had to post it.... its a classic "Rookie" moment.....
Questions.... Did he not get out and look?.... At what point did he realise the legs on the trailer were grounded?..... At what point was he going to realise the legs were not going to allow him movement?...
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Post by the light works on Oct 19, 2013 11:23:03 GMT
one of my first accident calls was a driver who high centered an underbelly cargo rack on an extremely awkward driveway.
that is also the style of chains I carry on the Jeep and we have for the fire engines.
as for the coat - I don't usually drive for as many hours at a stretch as you do, and my wife thinks climate control consists of opening the window to compensate for turning the heat too high. so i am usually wearing my coat to avoid the draft, when she is riding; or wearing it because I don't want to be bothered taking it off and putting it back on 10 minutes later.
our driving rules are a bit more complicated. there is a maximum single stretch you can drive, and then you can drive no more than a certain number of total hours in a week. I calculated it out once, and determined a three person team could keep the truck running continuously if they organized themselves correctly. (another driver I know from a different site tag teams with another driver to have a truck running around the clock 5 days a week. if his counterpart makes a slow run it pushes back his start time)
note: he is in Canadia
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 19, 2013 12:26:50 GMT
Multi-Driver teams exist in UK, but not that often.... Part of our ruling that is in any 14 day rolling period, you MUST on the 14th day take a complete 24hr break away from the truck, away from place of work, and do no driving at all, unless domestic.
But to be honest, with the way transport works, it cheaper to have two trucks working than have two drivers in the same truck.... We dont have THAT much long distance in UK that cant be done in one day.... And if it is that far away, it gets "Trunked", whereby a driver drives it from one depot to another where the next driver takes it onwards, with the original driver returning home with a return load.... Less "Overnight" night out expenses get paid, and with proper organization, that load can be on the move 20 out of 24 hrs.
Less expense, and as most depots are therefore half a days drive from each other, less chance of a tired driver doing more hours than he should?... and that driver gets to go HOME at night, better chance of sleep than a busy wagon park.
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