|
Post by the light works on Oct 15, 2013 18:15:19 GMT
sure - and if you know how to shoot, and don't shoot places you shouldn't then miniguns are just fine for rodent control. but there are some places where places you shouldn't drive without snow tires consist of everywhere but heated garages. Kharnyb lives in one of those places; I don't. however, they are still a smart idea where I am, if you drive early in the morning, because we do get just enough frost to cause occasional problems. Again, if you know how to drive and don't drive places you shouldn't drive or your choice of vehicle shouldn't be driven, all Season tires are just fine for typical daily driving in urban, suburban and most rural areas. Kharnyb case wouldn't be typical All Season tire driving. Your case would be typical all season tire driving. Though, I did get a snicker at snow tires for Just enough frost to cause problems.... when you are comparing $600 for 4 years to $1200 for 8 years with a $400 one-time setup cost (hey, just because you have snow tires doesn't mean you have to have cheap wheels) the difference between problems and no problems becomes quite affordable. especially when you have a $500 deductible. perhaps I should quantify "occasional problems" as one or two cars in the ditch badly enough to require fire department response per week during the frost season. we don't count the ones that bounce off something and keep going, because there's no way to keep track of them.
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Oct 15, 2013 19:46:38 GMT
Again, if you know how to drive and don't drive places you shouldn't drive or your choice of vehicle shouldn't be driven, all Season tires are just fine for typical daily driving in urban, suburban and most rural areas. Kharnyb case wouldn't be typical All Season tire driving. Your case would be typical all season tire driving. Though, I did get a snicker at snow tires for Just enough frost to cause problems.... when you are comparing $600 for 4 years to $1200 for 8 years with a $400 one-time setup cost (hey, just because you have snow tires doesn't mean you have to have cheap wheels) the difference between problems and no problems becomes quite affordable. especially when you have a $500 deductible. perhaps I should quantify "occasional problems" as one or two cars in the ditch badly enough to require fire department response per week during the frost season. we don't count the ones that bounce off something and keep going, because there's no way to keep track of them. It's FROST. If a driver can't stay on the road with All Season tires on FROST. It likely is the DRIVER and not the lack of snow tires.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 15, 2013 20:37:59 GMT
when you are comparing $600 for 4 years to $1200 for 8 years with a $400 one-time setup cost (hey, just because you have snow tires doesn't mean you have to have cheap wheels) the difference between problems and no problems becomes quite affordable. especially when you have a $500 deductible. perhaps I should quantify "occasional problems" as one or two cars in the ditch badly enough to require fire department response per week during the frost season. we don't count the ones that bounce off something and keep going, because there's no way to keep track of them. It's FROST. If a driver can't stay on the road with All Season tires on FROST. It likely is the DRIVER and not the lack of snow tires. the key word in the phrase is "problems" with the modifier "enough to cause" at that point, it wouldn't matter if it was enough yoghurt to cause problems - it would be worth it to have yoghurt tires. case in point - I and a guy I worked with drove to work within minutes of each other. I had traction tires, he had all season tires. I did not have problems. he had problems. ergo, that morning, there was enough frost to cause problems - for him.
|
|
|
Post by wvengineer on Oct 15, 2013 21:57:08 GMT
I am quire fond of traction cables. Good sets are under $100 and you keep them in your trunk until you need them. When you are out the problem area, you take them off. Not as good as real snow tires, but still much better than summer or all-seasons.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 16, 2013 0:13:18 GMT
I am quire fond of traction cables. Good sets are under $100 and you keep them in your trunk until you need them. When you are out the problem area, you take them off. Not as good as real snow tires, but still much better than summer or all-seasons. I didn't consider them much more than marginally better. especially when a good set of diamond pattern chains takes up the same space, and gives you WAY more grip.
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Oct 16, 2013 2:34:23 GMT
It's FROST. If a driver can't stay on the road with All Season tires on FROST. It likely is the DRIVER and not the lack of snow tires. the key word in the phrase is "problems" with the modifier "enough to cause" at that point, it wouldn't matter if it was enough yoghurt to cause problems - it would be worth it to have yoghurt tires. case in point - I and a guy I worked with drove to work within minutes of each other. I had traction tires, he had all season tires. I did not have problems. he had problems. ergo, that morning, there was enough frost to cause problems - for him. That is not an indication that his problems were related to his lack of snow tires and you not having problems was related to your snow tires. 2 people, 2 different styles and experience at driving. Mass numbers of folks drive on frost, snow and ice with all season tires and keep it between the ditches. Mass numbers of folks drive on frost, snow and ice with snow tires and still end up in the ditches.
|
|
|
Post by kharnynb on Oct 16, 2013 4:14:59 GMT
A good test of the difference between real winter tires and basic friction tires.
Note, that's not even all-season tires, but tires actually sold as winter tires.....
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 16, 2013 4:41:15 GMT
the key word in the phrase is "problems" with the modifier "enough to cause" at that point, it wouldn't matter if it was enough yoghurt to cause problems - it would be worth it to have yoghurt tires. case in point - I and a guy I worked with drove to work within minutes of each other. I had traction tires, he had all season tires. I did not have problems. he had problems. ergo, that morning, there was enough frost to cause problems - for him. That is not an indication that his problems were related to his lack of snow tires and you not having problems was related to your snow tires. 2 people, 2 different styles and experience at driving. Mass numbers of folks drive on frost, snow and ice with all season tires and keep it between the ditches. Mass numbers of folks drive on frost, snow and ice with snow tires and still end up in the ditches. not much difference between our driving styles. this based on the fact that neither one of us could really get a competitive edge on each other. and this clip, I think, is more to the point.
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Oct 16, 2013 9:57:36 GMT
I think they are actually illegal in the UK.....
I dont think we have any choice in UK. Its all season tyres all year. Plus many people wont be bothered changing wheels to summer tyres, because two days later and a thunderstorm, you have to change back for wet roads......
"Concern" has been raised in the UK. (I am part of the group pressing for this...) Many student drivers can pass in Summer without actually ever driving in rain or at night?.... And we give them a licence?... I have pressed for many years that student drivers must have at least six month road experience, including mandatory snow or skid-pan training to get a FULL licence....
Some drivers do not know how to drive on snow. End of statement. They just do not know. The fault lies in the "Easy" pass of a driving test... Should it be harder?...
If not, should those drivers who pass in countries or states or areas that do not have extreme weather be effectively banned from driving in other counties until they get training for "Local" weather conditions?... As in, you pass a "Local" licence but must take test for national or international driving....
Put it this way, if someone used to equatorial all year dry weather with maybe light rain at the most, came to England in Winter, (or north America, Canada, Iceland etc), faced with two foot of snow, do we just let them loose with a hire-car..............
Precisely. Do they?.
On the evidence in front of my window over hundreds of miles of daily working conditions, I heavily suspect some do not.
We, the Educated on here, may be able to adapt and drive quite well, but what hope have we got when some twit fresh off the plane from Californian sun hits the now in front of us?.... And how do we tell how good they are?...
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Oct 16, 2013 10:17:52 GMT
Snow "adapters" (Loosely termed...) for car tyres... I have seen almost just rope with hardened plastic bits sold in shops as "Snow chains"....
Snow CHAIN. If it doesnt clank and rattle like a heavy chain does, its NOT a chain. If you cant hear it when you are driving, its not a snow chain. The sound of a chain on tarmac is a warning... if you hear that, you are not on sow and should stop and take them off?... If you can manage to drive at over 20 mph with them on, you are both a fool, and not using the right chain anyway.
Snow chains should take 10 mins minimum to fit... the longer it takes to put on, the less chance it has of comming off. Yes you CAN tie knots in rope in an emergency... But as soon as you are out of danger, stay there, and consider getting somewhere safe until the weather or road conditions improve.
We all seen Ice Road Truckers?... I have driven that type of conditions... But importantly here, ONLY on my way home. I put chains on to get out of bad weather and cruddy road conditions, if its a case of I have to put them on at the start of the day, then you are confused, because it wasnt me stood there... I would not consider starting a journey if I knew I would have to use chains before I got to the destination. Chains are emergency only for me.
I am not ever going to drive the John Dalton or any other ice road in a heavy good vehicle without some important extra training in those conditions... Never too old to learn... I just didnt get where I am thinking I knew everything, and driving heavy and dangerous goods on Ice is not something I will ever want to say I am the expert on... I suspect thats one thing you never stop learning with. I have driven rollerskate on part of an Ice road... light delivery truck to get something medical equipment somewhere in an emergency, on an iced up road, not over water unless there was a bridge there. It did cause me a lot of concern.. mostly because I just didnt know how far I could "Push".... I have driven loose surface Rally cars on gravel at reasonably high speed, but you are strapped in with a five point harness and wear a crash helmet over a Nomex fire suit... its not the same?...
Do some REAL 40plus ton ice road trucking?...(After the right training...)
Yeah, sure, why the hell not?... As long as I gets paid for it that is. And that includes flights training and accommodation type stuff.....
Otherwise, I can be happy just leaving all that to the expert... I am just educated enough to know when to say its not worth the risk for me.
As we dont have the conditions to do full ice road trucking in the UK, you will find, If I aint out there, neither is anyone else.... And that is a good sign to look out for. If its a major transport road and you dont see trucks, the weather IS that bad.
|
|
|
Post by kharnynb on Oct 16, 2013 13:59:00 GMT
Over here, you don't get a license without darkdriving tests(simulator or real), 2 seperate slippery track tests and a second (after 2 years) final assesement.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 16, 2013 14:00:55 GMT
If it takes you more than ten minutes to chain up, you are not doing it right, or you have them stored wrong; and with a good brand of diamond pattern passenger car chain, more than a minute per tire is questionable.
proper tire chains need not be time consuming - drape them over the tire, set the inside latch and safety, draw them to the outside until the inside band is snug, latch the outside and set the safety, and set the tensioner(s). the time consuming part is to drive ten yards and then recheck the chains to make sure nothing slipped.
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Oct 16, 2013 15:48:14 GMT
I'm having bandwidth sharing issues at the moment. I'll watch the videos when I can.
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Oct 16, 2013 20:28:03 GMT
Finally got to watch the videos. (though the one video was Summer Tires not All Season Tires.
Snow/winter tires are superior without a doubt. I never stated otherwise.
Though the video made my point for me. "Knowing how to drive", also includes driving within the limitations of your tires. (I think I may have mentioned that as well).
In the video, they tried to drive all the cars within the limitations of the superior tire, which the all season tire cannot do.
They failed to show that at reduced speeds the All Season tires work just fine.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 2:19:04 GMT
Finally got to watch the videos. (though the one video was Summer Tires not All Season Tires. Snow/winter tires are superior without a doubt. I never stated otherwise. Though the video made my point for me. "Knowing how to drive", also includes driving within the limitations of your tires. (I think I may have mentioned that as well). In the video, they tried to drive all the cars within the limitations of the superior tire, which the all season tire cannot do. They failed to show that at reduced speeds the All Season tires work just fine. congratulation, you have now made a complete circle. "when you drive appropriately for conditions, defined as in a manner in which all season tires do just fine; all season tires do just fine."
|
|
|
Post by User Unavailable on Oct 17, 2013 4:06:52 GMT
Finally got to watch the videos. (though the one video was Summer Tires not All Season Tires. Snow/winter tires are superior without a doubt. I never stated otherwise. Though the video made my point for me. "Knowing how to drive", also includes driving within the limitations of your tires. (I think I may have mentioned that as well). In the video, they tried to drive all the cars within the limitations of the superior tire, which the all season tire cannot do. They failed to show that at reduced speeds the All Season tires work just fine. congratulation, you have now made a complete circle. "when you drive appropriately for conditions, defined as in a manner in which all season tires do just fine; all season tires do just fine." Not a circle at all. It doesn't take a genius to know that you can't drive a car equipped with one type tires, the same as you would the same car equipped with a different type of tire. I've driven a lot of snow over the years. Both with snow tires and with all season tires. I'm not afraid to drive all season tires in the same conditions I've driven snow tires. I would drive differently and get along just fine.
|
|
|
Post by silverdragon on Oct 17, 2013 9:33:34 GMT
Can we have that here please?... That two year "Final assessment", Seriously?.. they bring you back and teat you again to see how well you are doing?... What a bloody good idea.... Hey, just when did you get a driving standards agency that was that intelligent?...
Are you including the time from stopping the car to getting going again?... From digging them out of the boot of the car, it would take longer, as in mine are stored inside the spare wheel under the floor of the boot of my car... then untangling them, laying them out the right way round, and doing all four wheels... I suggest on a cold day with cold hands in a tricky maybe roadside situation it may take as I suggested 10 mins start to finish?.... However, who is in a rush anyway. Unless the weather is actually getting worse as you stand there that is...............
By the way, Truck chains, bloody heavy awkward things that they are, you could spend up to 45 mins getting the things on... dependant on how many wheels you have to chain, and how difficult they are to fasten.
Second point, you have different chains obviously... Mine are rather old, I admit, they were my Dads before me, but I have to drive over part of the chain before I can fasten it up?... Or is it that I am just doing it different.... Who knows, and to be quite honest, if it works, I aint goina fix it... and they dont come off again unless I take them off. I didnt use them at all last year, because I refuse to go out in "The big white" on the first day of any snow, as that is the day most accidents happen, and by the second day, most roads are drivable without chains. Plus I am now getting older, and not so adventurous, I wont go down a road unless I bloomin' well HAVE to these days in bad weather....
The sign says 40, I MUST DO 40..... Those road fools are the worst. I was taught right from the start that in Rain, knock 20% or 10mph (Whichever the larger) off your posted limits immediately.... Snow, ignore speed limits, you should never actually be going anywhere near half that fast anyway.
I was driving along the M62 with four people in the truck one day, approaching the steep downhioll grade of windy hill. The motorway was actually white. We were progressing along about 30mph, as the inside lane was gritted, and that speed was safe... I started to indicate to turn off the motorway at the A62 link road I knew, that would by-pass Windy Hill... My passengers were starting to question why when we were passed by what I had seen in the mirrors... four or five cars nose to tail in the outside lane doing about 90.
It took about 15 mins for the news broadcast about delays possible on the M62 due to a pile up just after where we turned off... we would have got caught up in that.
Just WHY do people have this absolute need to go as fast as they can at all times?... Even when it plainly a bloody silly idea........
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 13:40:24 GMT
congratulation, you have now made a complete circle. "when you drive appropriately for conditions, defined as in a manner in which all season tires do just fine; all season tires do just fine." Not a circle at all. It doesn't take a genius to know that you can't drive a car equipped with one type tires, the same as you would the same car equipped with a different type of tire. I've driven a lot of snow over the years. Both with snow tires and with all season tires. I'm not afraid to drive all season tires in the same conditions I've driven snow tires. I would drive differently and get along just fine. I think my brother was doing around 20 when he stuffed our parents car into a ditch. with all season tires. on "frost" as for me. the Acura started feeling scary at around 25 on frost, without the winter tires on it. keep in mind that this is a guy who used to ski an average of 3 days a week during college. so yes, if you drive in such a manner that all season tires get along just fine, you will be just fine with all season tires. but if you don't want the heavy morning frost to interfere with your commute, then it is worth investing the 4 feet of garage space in winter tires.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 13:53:37 GMT
Can we have that here please?... That two year "Final assessment", Seriously?.. they bring you back and teat you again to see how well you are doing?... What a bloody good idea....Hey, just when did you get a driving standards agency that was that intelligent?... Are you including the time from stopping the car to getting going again?... From digging them out of the boot of the car, it would take longer, as in mine are stored inside the spare wheel under the floor of the boot of my car... then untangling them, laying them out the right way round, and doing all four wheels... I suggest on a cold day with cold hands in a tricky maybe roadside situation it may take as I suggested 10 mins start to finish?.... However, who is in a rush anyway. Unless the weather is actually getting worse as you stand there that is............... By the way, Truck chains, bloody heavy awkward things that they are, you could spend up to 45 mins getting the things on... dependant on how many wheels you have to chain, and how difficult they are to fasten. Second point, you have different chains obviously... Mine are rather old, I admit, they were my Dads before me, but I have to drive over part of the chain before I can fasten it up?... Or is it that I am just doing it different.... Who knows, and to be quite honest, if it works, I aint goina fix it... and they dont come off again unless I take them off. I didnt use them at all last year, because I refuse to go out in "The big white" on the first day of any snow, as that is the day most accidents happen, and by the second day, most roads are drivable without chains. Plus I am now getting older, and not so adventurous, I wont go down a road unless I bloomin' well HAVE to these days in bad weather.... I count that as doing it wrong. let's see: the diamond pattern chains for the Nissan were stored behind the seat. since they used a rigid inside hoop, the bag was big enough to double as a kneeler. pull the seat forward, lift the bag out, lift a chain out of the bag, drape it over the tire, click the hoophook the outside, hang on the bungee tensioner, and go to the other side. Acura: I didn't like the first set of diamond pattern chains, so I bought a second set in the same style as the ones I had for the pickup. they got stored in the trunk, on top of the load if I expected to need them. sure, if you have to completely unload your car to get to the chains and reload it, you can easily add up to ten minutes standing in the snow. Jeep: This one had traditional steels, and in the winter I carried them laid out crossways across the back so I could just lift them out and already have them oriented properly. I think the time I was seriously forced to chain up, it did take me 10 minutes, because I had to chain up the drivers side, and then use the one chained tire to claw my way away from the snowbank so I could get to the passenger side. driving hint - never follow an auger style snowplow if you can help it. they put a good polish on the ice. Fire engines: their chains are stored in 5 gallon buckets. if it is threatening snow, I might pull them out of the buckets and lay them alongside the drivers, so I know they have been checked and are ready for use. the first year I tried making a jig so I parked the truck on the chains, but that method of installing chains does not work well at all. I also count that as doing it wrong.
|
|
|
Post by the light works on Oct 17, 2013 13:56:33 GMT
Addendum: when you drive your truck, do you drive with your logbook where you have to empty the cab to get to it? if not, then when you drive when it might be snowy enough to need chains, why do you have the chains where you have to empty the trunk to get to them?
|
|