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Post by silverdragon on Oct 20, 2013 10:49:06 GMT
Cross thread idea for separated discussion.... citadelofmyths.freeforums.net/thread/775?page=6&scrollTo=27737Diesel engines that are no so highly engineered that that would miond what fuel they run on. Ok, so we know re-cycled chip fat (cooking oil) is used... so what else?... Will the things run on anything from heavy fuel oil to light fuel oil, alcohol, and just about anything that burns?... Can we cover everything suggested ever by anyone here?... Nail polish remover included.
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Post by privatepaddy on Oct 20, 2013 11:17:32 GMT
Cross thread idea for separated discussion.... citadelofmyths.freeforums.net/thread/775?page=6&scrollTo=27737Diesel engines that are no so highly engineered that that would miond what fuel they run on. Ok, so we know re-cycled chip fat (cooking oil) is used... so what else?... Will the things run on anything from heavy fuel oil to light fuel oil, alcohol, and just about anything that burns?... Can we cover everything suggested ever by anyone here?... Nail polish remover included. They will run on LPG/natural gas and I read somewhere they will run on crude oil. Which brings into question will they run on those old wood burner units they used in WW2? Otto Diesel the German inventor did design the original engine to run on any thing except the oily rag.
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 20, 2013 11:27:07 GMT
WW2 wood burners created "Wood Oil", and yes, that wood oil was sent for combustion into normal diesel engines.
Crude oil.... Hmm. not sure.
However, I do know some nut jobs who removed restrictions to over rev an engine and it ran away on them to destructive ends as it started burning the sump oil....
I think [Edit, it wont allow me to use his usual first name, short hand for Richard...] Mr D Strawbridge may remember the events, it was an episode of scrapyard challenge (Junkyard wars British origin)
Anything but the oily rag... and that is the idea, because many myths have been around that you cold poor a bottle of low-grade whiskey intro one and it would run... Note, WhiskEy, I do not in any way condone the use of the serious stuff, Whisky with no E, Malt, anything Scottish, or any equivalent worldwide.... If you are short of Fuel and have a bottle of Malt whisky, SIP the malt sparingly and frequently, and Walk. At the same time. You will be surprised at how well it takes the pain away and how many miles you can cover that way on foot?.... You would walk further than the engine would drive anyway....
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Post by Cybermortis on Oct 20, 2013 11:57:35 GMT
The military uses multifuel engines in a lot of their vehicles, usually tanks.
From what little I can tell from a very quick google search, diesel engines seem to be able to burn any flammable liquid that has a similar viscosity to diesel.
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Post by the light works on Oct 20, 2013 14:51:31 GMT
There are high and low threshholds for the combustion characteristics, - the one resulting in damage from overpressure, and the other resulting in not enough "oomph" to make the wheels go 'round. otherwise, Mr. Otto Diesel's design was to make an engine that could run on what other engines couldn't.
my understanding on woodgas engines is that they typically had a fraction of the horsepower per volume displacement of gasoline engines - which was offset by the extremely high ready availability of the fuel.
our local ship grounding had a "bunker fuel engine." "bunker fuel" being defined in several of the articles as anything you can fit through a quarter inch pipe at 150-200 (F) operating temperature.
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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 20, 2013 17:31:01 GMT
True multi-fuel engines are slightly different from "regular" Diesel engines.
True multi-fuel Diesel engines are Hypercycle engines. Such as the multi-fuel engine equipped variants of the long lived M35 series of 2 1/2 ton trucks.
Some of the differences include: 1. Fuel density compensator built into the diesel injection pump 2. Specially designed intake manifold which creates "swirl" in the chamber 3. Built-in hemispherical depressions in tops of pistons to control the fuel burn
4. 22:1 Compression Ratio
5. Engines built heavier/stronger While they can burn gasoline and other fuels or mixtures of fuels, the multi-fuel capability is intended to be a "have to" situation and not the normal mode of operation.
When using gasoline in the M35, for example, it is recommended to to add x number of quarts of motor oil to x number of gallons of gasoline to lubricate the pumps that are typically lubricated by the diesel fuel.
Running gasoline or other similar fuels through a Diesel engine that is not specifically set up for that is asking for a destroyed engine.
Veggie oil and the like can be run through "regular" Diesel engines with little modification.
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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 20, 2013 19:24:40 GMT
How a Spherical (Hyper-cycle) Combustion Chamber Works.From the link: The spherical (hypercycle) combustion chamber (fig. 5-5) is designed principally for use in the multifuel diesel engine. The chamber consists of a basic open type chamber with a spherical shaped relief in the top of the piston head. The chamber works in conjunction with a strategically positioned injector and an intake port that produces a swirling effect, as it enters the chamber. Operation of the chamber is as follows: As the air enters the combustion chamber, the shape of the intake port (fig. 5-5) introduces a swirling effect to it. During the compression stroke, the swirling motion of the air continues as the temperature in the chamber increases (fig. 5-5). As the fuel is injected, approximately 95 percent of it is deposited on the head of the piston and the remainder mixes with the air in the spherical combustion chamber (fig. 5-5). As combustion begins, the main portion of the fuel is swept off the piston head by the high-velocity swirl that was created by the intake and the compression strokes. As the fuel is swept off of the head, it burns through the power stroke, maintaining even combustion and eliminating detonation (fig. 5-5). Figure 5-5
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Post by silverdragon on Oct 21, 2013 7:54:14 GMT
Bring it on... as in, ya think MB's would be interested in doing a section on what is and isnt "fuel" for one of these engines?.... We all know Rapeseed oil, the original bio diesel?.... Yes, so what ELSE can be turned into fuel... And what is economical to do..
I get the idea that they do more complete burn, but, what damage can be done to a regular diesel engine on multi-fuel, or is it just simply that its not such a clean burn?...
BTW, putting Petrol (Ga$oline) into a diesel engine, only in emergency, and as suggested, mixed with a little motor oil for sanities sake.... Or so I believe... Is that totally fake, an explosion happening, or is it possible?... if possible, question on that, without the "spark", what is igniting the fuel, and if it is compression and the presence of heavy oil that self ignites, why dont we have engines without spark plugs for regular petrol?...
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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 21, 2013 16:59:12 GMT
What happens when you put gasoline in a Diesel engine.From the link: What happens if you inadvertently fill your diesel car with gasoline? Whether you're new to diesel ownership, or might have both diesel and gasoline powered vehicles in your own personal fleet, it can be oh-so-easy to accidentally mis-fuel your diesel tank with gasoline. Filling your fuel tank is such an ordinary and mundane task, that just a moment's inattention can cause you to grab the wrong nozzle and pump away. Bad enough if you realize the mistake right away and can get the car towed to a shop to have the tank drained (an awfully expensive nuisance), but what if you don't even realize the mistake and end up driving away with a tank full of gasoline? Chances are you won't get very far (maybe just a mile or so until the diesel in the fuel line gives way to the fresh batch of gasoline on the way from the tank) and the engine starts to run "funny." Of course it All depends on how much diesel remained in the tank before the gasoline was added, and how new and sophisticated the diesel engine is. In a 2007 or newer clean diesel engine, any amount of gasoline will probably damage the sensitive emissions control components (DPF, OxyCat and SCR) and system. In older engines with much less sophisticated and "touchy" emissions systems, a lightly diluted (say 90 percent diesel/10 percent gasoline) mix would probably pass through with little or no detriment. It might simply cause reduced engine power, perhaps a bit more noise, and possibly a sharp warning from the emissions sensors that detect something other than pure diesel exhaust. It's high concentrations of gasoline that spell real trouble. Whether a modern clean CRD diesel or an old indirect injection unit, burning straight gasoline or highly diluted diesel fuel will almost certainly result in catastrophic damage to the mighty Diesel engine. Diesel Fuel and Compression Ignition Diesel engines rely on compression ignition and run at much higher compression ratios and cylinder pressures than their gasoline counterparts. It is this higher compression ratio that creates the necessary heat to auto-ignite and burn low volatility oil-type fuels such as diesel fuel and biodiesel. Gasoline and Spark Ignition Gasoline engines are built much less stoutly than diesels and generate far lower combustion chamber compression ratios. Because these engines don't build sufficient pressure and heat to ignite dense oil-type fuels, they rely on timed electric spark ignition to initiate gasoline's highly volatile burn sequence. So What Does Gasoline do to a Diesel Engine? The problem is multi-faceted. It is a function of the completely different burn characteristics of the fuels (volatile and explosive gasoline versus high flash point diesel fuel), and the peculiarities of engine design in regards to how fuel is ignited (spark ignition versus compression ignition). Gasoline is formulated to resist auto-ignition in a spark engine (see octane), so this fuel introduced into a diesel engine either won't ignite or will (much more likely) ignite at the wrong time causing severe detonation. Though diesel engine reciprocating components (pistons, wrist pins and connecting rods) are built to withstand enormous explosive force, the shock wave effects of uncontrolled detonation can easily destroy them. In addition to the specific burn characteristics that diesel fuel and biodiesel afford to compression ignition diesel engines, the fuel itself acts as a lubricant for the fuel pump and delivery system as well as the valve train (recall that diesel fuel is actually a very light oil). Running thin, low viscosity gasoline through a diesel fuel system would starve it for lubrication and cause those sensitive components to rub together (metal-to-metal) eventually destroying them.
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Post by the light works on Oct 21, 2013 17:25:28 GMT
in short, besides the fact that gasoline is great for cleaning oil off things; an engine needs to go "whomp" and gasoline in a high compression diesel goes "bang"
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Post by User Unavailable on Oct 31, 2013 3:30:10 GMT
in short, besides the fact that gasoline is great for cleaning oil off things; an engine needs to go "whomp" and gasoline in a high compression diesel goes "bang" Yup, pretty much. The Fuel Density Compensator is also important to the multifuel engine. It works like this.From the link: Fuel Density Compensator The multifuel engine operates on a variety of fuels that have a broad range of viscosities and heat values. These variations in the fuels affect engine output. Because it is unacceptable for the power output of the engine to vary with fuel changes, the multifuel engine is fitted with a device known as a fuel density compensator (fig. 5-38). The fuel density compensator is a device that serves to vary the quantity of fuel injected to the engine by regulating the full-load stop of the fuel pump. The characteristics of the fuels show that their heat values decrease almost inversely proportional to their viscosities. The fuel density compensator uses viscosity as the indicator for regulating fuel flow. Its operation is as follows: The fuel enters the compensator through the fuel pressure regulator where the fuel pressure is regulated to a constant 20 psi regardless of engine speed and load range. The pressure-regulated fuel then passes through a series of two orifices. The two orifices, by offering greatly different resistances to flow, form a system that is sensitive to viscosity changes. The first orifice is annular, formed by the clearance between the servo piston and its cylinder. This orifice is sensitive to viscosity. The second orifice is formed by an adjustable needle valve and is not viscosity sensitive. The higher the viscosity of the fuel, the more trouble that it will have passing through the first orifice. Because of this, the fuel pressure under the servo piston will rise proportionally with viscosity. Because the second orifice is not viscosity sensitive, the pressure over the servo piston will remain constant. This will cause a pressure differential that increases proportional with viscosity, in turn, causing the piston to seek a position in its bore that becomes higher as viscosity increases. The upward movement of the servo piston will move a wedge-shaped moveable plate, which will decrease fuel delivery. A lower viscosity fuel will cause the piston to move downward, causing the pump to increase fuel delivery. After the fuel passes through the two orifices, it leaves the compensator through an outlet port. From here the fuel passes back to the pump. Figure 5-38.—Fuel density compensator. This site also has a wealth of Multi-fuel engine information. <--- Link to Steel Soldiers.
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 2, 2013 7:56:17 GMT
Fourth Read-Through, getting slightly clearer.....
I think I may understand most of that!.... Not bad for a not-a-mechanic?...
Question, the "More fuel less fuel" plate thing... how is that operated, and will it be pre-set before you run the engine, I presume its not a throttle to be played with as the vehicle is in motion?....
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Post by the light works on Nov 2, 2013 12:21:00 GMT
Fourth Read-Through, getting slightly clearer..... I think I may understand most of that!.... Not bad for a not-a-mechanic?... Question, the "More fuel less fuel" plate thing... how is that operated, and will it be pre-set before you run the engine, I presume its not a throttle to be played with as the vehicle is in motion?.... my understanding is that there are two adjustments: the first adjustment (needle valve) is made by the guy who assembles the engine, and he adjusts it to the correct setting for the diesel they use in the initial operation; and thereafter that setting is secured by a safety wire to prevent unauthorized twiddling; and the complex pressure equalization system makes the second adjustment (servo piston) based on how thick the fuel is. It appears that from there, the linkage connects to the throttle and adjusts the rate at which the throttle increases fuel delivery.
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Post by silverdragon on Nov 3, 2013 8:08:40 GMT
Ahhh... that makes sense.... So it sort of self-analyses the fuel being sucked in and makes necessary adjustments... That also makes sense.
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Post by the light works on Nov 3, 2013 13:57:13 GMT
Ahhh... that makes sense.... So it sort of self-analyses the fuel being sucked in and makes necessary adjustments... That also makes sense. so you don't have to be cranking on an adjustment every time you change fuel types.
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Post by c64 on Mar 22, 2014 14:46:50 GMT
Cross thread idea for separated discussion.... citadelofmyths.freeforums.net/thread/775?page=6&scrollTo=27737Diesel engines that are no so highly engineered that that would miond what fuel they run on. Ok, so we know re-cycled chip fat (cooking oil) is used... so what else?... Will the things run on anything from heavy fuel oil to light fuel oil, alcohol, and just about anything that burns?... Can we cover everything suggested ever by anyone here?... Nail polish remover included. During World War II, Gasoline and Diesel fuels were not available for German civilians. A lot of creative conversions were done to vehicles. Gasoline cars were usually run on "wood gas" and alcohol. Diesel engines, especially for farming purposes were run on petroleum, lamp oils and other low grade fuels. Usually they started up on real Diesel and when hot, they switched to the alternate fuel. I owned two vehicles with "classic Diesel engines". In a modern direct injection engine, the viscosity of the fuel matters so much that the engine can't run on anything else. Most state of the art Diesel engines can't use "Bio Diesel", the viscosity is slightly different! A classic Diesel engine has an indirect injection. It squirts a drop of fuel on a "glow nose" where the fuel flashes to vapors and partially ignites in the low oxygen environment of the injector chamber. The weak detonation in this chamber then propels the hot vapors into the actual cylinder where they quickly mix with the hot compressed oxygen rich air and detonate. This creates the unique Diesel sound, often refereed to as "nailing". A modern direct injection Diesel sounds rather like a gasoline engine. When hot enough, a classic diesel engine accepts anything that can burn in form of a hot vapor and flashes to vapors on the glow nose. You may need to adjust the injection timing and quantity when using different fuels. You can also run it on light fuels like gasoline, but the problem is that light fuels burn more intense in the injector chamber and cause more fire than a detonation which can even burn holes into the piston. If the fuel is "too heavy", the injector pump and injector nozzle can't get enough fuel fast enough onto the glow nose so the engine won't work unless you switch out the injector nozzles. Military "multi fuel" engines have a set of different injector nozzles to switch between kinds of fuel without retrofitting. Those can also run on light fuels when mixed with at least some Disel or motor oil. My farming tractor I once owned was used to dispose waste oils. I also had got a lot of fuel for free since when someone confuses the pumps and had a gas/diesel mix, it had to be removed and disposed or it damages the car. So I had put that into my tractor, just mixing 50% Diesel and waste oils in since more than 50% gasoline would burn holes into the pistons and burn out the injector chamber. During winter I HAD to add gasoline to keep the Diesel liquid. The manual of the tractor said at least 10% and a maximum of 40% during very cold climate. So yes, with a crude, classic Diesel engine, you can make use of a lot of waste you can get for free - as long as not too many people do that
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Post by the light works on Mar 25, 2014 17:03:12 GMT
here it was the other way around - our WWII era farm tractors were built to start and warm up on gasoline, with louvers closed over the radiator to make it run hotter - and once you got it hot enough you would switch it over to Diesel or some other form of fuel oil that was cheaper and more plentiful than gasoline.
the intent behind the military multi fuel engines is to make it so it can run on either diesel or jet fuel (kerosene) depending on what is handy on the base you are working out of. (and conversely so they only have to take one kind of fuel to any given base)
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Post by c64 on Mar 26, 2014 12:18:43 GMT
here it was the other way around - our WWII era farm tractors were built to start and warm up on gasoline, with louvers closed over the radiator to make it run hotter - and once you got it hot enough you would switch it over to Diesel or some other form of fuel oil that was cheaper and more plentiful than gasoline. the intent behind the military multi fuel engines is to make it so it can run on either diesel or jet fuel (kerosene) depending on what is handy on the base you are working out of. (and conversely so they only have to take one kind of fuel to any given base) The US military mainly used gasoline engines. This choice was what made the Sherman Tank so dangerous for its occupants. The German military vehicles use classic diesel engines which could run on kerosene. For an internal combustion engine, there is no real difference between kerosene and a mix of diesel and gasoline. Using kerosene is dangerous since it can catch fire pretty well when the gas tank ruptures. All German military vehicles run with classic diesel engines, gasoline is rarely used and only for machinery which isn't important during a war. So Diesel is available everywhere. The emergency procedure of tanks and some trucks which run out of fuel is to use the engine oil as fuel. This gives a Leopard-I a range of 40 Kilometers, enough to retreat safely. The idea of multifuel engines used to be the ability to pick up any fuel you can find, e.g. using petroleum from farms and railroad storage. Nowadays, this feature isn't important any more since there are not much low-grade fuels in use any more so either you find real diesel and gasoline or nothing at all. The need of multi-fuel engines became obsolete with modern civilian machinery running on high-grade fuels and modern military logistics.
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Post by the light works on Mar 26, 2014 13:58:36 GMT
here it was the other way around - our WWII era farm tractors were built to start and warm up on gasoline, with louvers closed over the radiator to make it run hotter - and once you got it hot enough you would switch it over to Diesel or some other form of fuel oil that was cheaper and more plentiful than gasoline. the intent behind the military multi fuel engines is to make it so it can run on either diesel or jet fuel (kerosene) depending on what is handy on the base you are working out of. (and conversely so they only have to take one kind of fuel to any given base) The US military mainly used gasoline engines. This choice was what made the Sherman Tank so dangerous for its occupants. The German military vehicles use classic diesel engines which could run on kerosene. For an internal combustion engine, there is no real difference between kerosene and a mix of diesel and gasoline. Using kerosene is dangerous since it can catch fire pretty well when the gas tank ruptures. All German military vehicles run with classic diesel engines, gasoline is rarely used and only for machinery which isn't important during a war. So Diesel is available everywhere. The emergency procedure of tanks and some trucks which run out of fuel is to use the engine oil as fuel. This gives a Leopard-I a range of 40 Kilometers, enough to retreat safely. The idea of multifuel engines used to be the ability to pick up any fuel you can find, e.g. using petroleum from farms and railroad storage. Nowadays, this feature isn't important any more since there are not much low-grade fuels in use any more so either you find real diesel and gasoline or nothing at all. The need of multi-fuel engines became obsolete with modern civilian machinery running on high-grade fuels and modern military logistics. here, as I said, it is because all branches use the same utility vehicles - so they can take a HMMWV and paint it army green or air force blue without making any changes to the engine. army bases stock diesel, and air force bases stock JP-1.
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Post by oldcodger on Mar 26, 2014 20:10:29 GMT
The US military mainly used gasoline engines. This choice was what made the Sherman Tank so dangerous for its occupants. The German military vehicles use classic diesel engines which could run on kerosene. For an internal combustion engine, there is no real difference between kerosene and a mix of diesel and gasoline. Using kerosene is dangerous since it can catch fire pretty well when the gas tank ruptures. All German military vehicles run with classic diesel engines, gasoline is rarely used and only for machinery which isn't important during a war. So Diesel is available everywhere. The emergency procedure of tanks and some trucks which run out of fuel is to use the engine oil as fuel. This gives a Leopard-I a range of 40 Kilometers, enough to retreat safely. The idea of multifuel engines used to be the ability to pick up any fuel you can find, e.g. using petroleum from farms and railroad storage. Nowadays, this feature isn't important any more since there are not much low-grade fuels in use any more so either you find real diesel and gasoline or nothing at all. The need of multi-fuel engines became obsolete with modern civilian machinery running on high-grade fuels and modern military logistics. here, as I said, it is because all branches use the same utility vehicles - so they can take a HMMWV and paint it army green or air force blue without making any changes to the engine. army bases stock diesel, and air force bases stock JP-1. Not so...the reason that the M4 Sherman tank "brewed up"was NOT because it used a gasoline engine but because of the way the "ready ammo"was stored around the turret walls.Early M4 Shermans with "dry storage"racks caught fire when the turret was pierced,later M4s with a "wet storage"rack did not.
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