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Post by oldcodger on Mar 26, 2014 20:27:34 GMT
If gasoline engines were the cause of tank fires in WW2 then it stands to reason that ALL German tanks were fiery death-traps...Panzer I SD.KFZ.101:Krupp 4 cylinder GAS engine Panzer II :Maybach 6 cylinder GAS PanzerIII:Maybach HL 120 GAS Panzer IV:Maybach GAS Panzer V GAS Panzer VI Maybach HL 240 P45 V12 GAS Tiger II Maybach HL 230 P30 V12 GASOLINE
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Post by c64 on Mar 28, 2014 14:43:34 GMT
here, as I said, it is because all branches use the same utility vehicles - so they can take a HMMWV and paint it army green or air force blue without making any changes to the engine. army bases stock diesel, and air force bases stock JP-1. Not so...the reason that the M4 Sherman tank "brewed up"was NOT because it used a gasoline engine but because of the way the "ready ammo"was stored around the turret walls.Early M4 Shermans with "dry storage"racks caught fire when the turret was pierced,later M4s with a "wet storage"rack did not. If you hit a tank, the tank usually catches on fire. The anti-tank rounds drill a hole into the amour with a jet of molten copper. If the amour is pierced, white hot copper sprays through the compartment setting everything on fire. It depends on how the tank is hit. The common strategy is to aim for a weak spot, usually the base of the turret to destroy the turning mechanism and "weld the turret in place" even if the tank isn't fully pierced. This buys you a lot of time for more hits since the enemy can't properly aim any more. Then aim for the engine or tracks to prevent that the enemy can aim by turning the entire tank. If you have managed that, the enemy tank is useless since there is no way to aim any more. That's how the weak gun of the Sherman could have a chance against tanks with superior armor when there were enough Sherman tanks in the battle. A tank with a superior gun which can pierce the enemy amour just fine usually needs only one shot since the interior of the tank catches fire. This happens to all tanks, no matter if powered with gasoline or not. The difference is that when the gas tank burns, a diesel fire won't spread that rapidly. During basic training, I was a "tank grenadier" and they had told us that when the tank catches fire, we have about 6 seconds to get out or die from the fire. Back then we still had the Leopard-I in service. The grandpa of a friend used to be a German tank driver and told a lot of stories about his time in the war. First he was fighting against the Russian tanks. When hit, they often blew up due to the "ready round" inside the crew compartment. When this one was hit by molten steel, the turret of the tank blew skywards. They used to call them "Schachtelteufel" (= literally "boxed devil" = "jack in the box"). The third time his tank was hit, it had killed the gunner instantly and seriously injured the tank commander. As the driver, he was the only one who managed to escape the burning tank. He was sent back to hospital in Germany and later mobilized towards the west after the Normandy Invasion where he had encountered the Sherman tanks. While shooting the Russian tanks gave very satisfying feeling when destroyed, the Sherman tanks did not! The Russian tanks were mere toys, just a machine to fight and when it blew up, it couldn't hurt you any more. Nobody really thought about the occupants, you just didn't see them die. Usually the tank blows up or it starts to smoke a lot and men climb out and hide behind their tank out of reach of the MG. Hitting a Sherman is really sad to watch, those often really catch fire and burn bright. With tears in his eyes, he had told me that the first Sherman they had shot at caught fire and they felt very happy. Then a "hellhole of fire" opened on the tank and a dark silhouette appeared half way inside the flames and collapsed. He still had nightmares about this.
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Post by c64 on Mar 28, 2014 14:53:16 GMT
If gasoline engines were the cause of tank fires in WW2 then it stands to reason that ALL German tanks were fiery death-traps...Panzer I SD.KFZ.101:Krupp 4 cylinder GAS engine Panzer II :Maybach 6 cylinder GAS PanzerIII:Maybach HL 120 GAS Panzer IV:Maybach GAS Panzer V GAS Panzer VI Maybach HL 240 P45 V12 GAS Tiger II Maybach HL 230 P30 V12 GASOLINE Yes, they were. But the later ones like Panther and Tiger had an automatic Halon fire suppressing system. While you can't breathe, you don't burn so you have a lot more time to escape. Also the usually larger cannon and better Armour kept the enemy at a distance which made it more unlikely to start a fire. But the superior amour had the disadvantage of fuel economy. The range was very limited and towards the end of the war, they often ran out of fuel. Also those heavy tanks couldn't use small bridges - the Tiger-II was even unable to cross most bridges due to its weight.
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Post by the light works on Mar 28, 2014 16:09:53 GMT
If gasoline engines were the cause of tank fires in WW2 then it stands to reason that ALL German tanks were fiery death-traps...Panzer I SD.KFZ.101:Krupp 4 cylinder GAS engine Panzer II :Maybach 6 cylinder GAS PanzerIII:Maybach HL 120 GAS Panzer IV:Maybach GAS Panzer V GAS Panzer VI Maybach HL 240 P45 V12 GAS Tiger II Maybach HL 230 P30 V12 GASOLINE Yes, they were. But the later ones like Panther and Tiger had an automatic Halon fire suppressing system. While you can't breathe, you don't burn so you have a lot more time to escape. Also the usually larger cannon and better Armour kept the enemy at a distance which made it more unlikely to start a fire. But the superior amour had the disadvantage of fuel economy. The range was very limited and towards the end of the war, they often ran out of fuel. Also those heavy tanks couldn't use small bridges - the Tiger-II was even unable to cross most bridges due to its weight. the other problem was that we weren't building our tanks to go to battle against other tanks, yet, and the Germans were. we still considered the tank to be a troop support vehicle, that would be up against "soft" targets. so it didn't get built with either the armor or the guns the German tanks it faced did. we don't like to admit it, but Hitler lost because he made more tactical mistakes than we made engineering mistakes. - and we made up for it with sheer numbers.
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Post by c64 on Mar 28, 2014 17:50:02 GMT
Yes, they were. But the later ones like Panther and Tiger had an automatic Halon fire suppressing system. While you can't breathe, you don't burn so you have a lot more time to escape. Also the usually larger cannon and better Armour kept the enemy at a distance which made it more unlikely to start a fire. But the superior amour had the disadvantage of fuel economy. The range was very limited and towards the end of the war, they often ran out of fuel. Also those heavy tanks couldn't use small bridges - the Tiger-II was even unable to cross most bridges due to its weight. the other problem was that we weren't building our tanks to go to battle against other tanks, yet, and the Germans were. we still considered the tank to be a troop support vehicle, that would be up against "soft" targets. so it didn't get built with either the armor or the guns the German tanks it faced did. we don't like to admit it, but Hitler lost because he made more tactical mistakes than we made engineering mistakes. - and we made up for it with sheer numbers. Not quite. The Sherman was easy to make in vast numbers and a lot more mobile. Driving tanks all through half Europe requires fuel economy. And that's what was the main idea of the SHerman. And when in large numbers, they had a real advantage. You don't need to be able to kill a tank with one shot if you can shoot from several tanks at once. Just cripple it to buy time and then clobber it down. A major advantage of the allied was hygiene, food and advanced medicine. German soldiers became ill real fast during a siege. That's what had hindered Rommel in the dessert. Also healthy food, warm cloths and advanced medical attention (canned blood and penicillin) wasn't available for German soldiers. Germany had very good weapons but that was all they had!
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Post by oldcodger on Mar 29, 2014 2:29:19 GMT
If gasoline engines were the cause of tank fires in WW2 then it stands to reason that ALL German tanks were fiery death-traps...Panzer I SD.KFZ.101:Krupp 4 cylinder GAS engine Panzer II :Maybach 6 cylinder GAS PanzerIII:Maybach HL 120 GAS Panzer IV:Maybach GAS Panzer V GAS Panzer VI Maybach HL 240 P45 V12 GAS Tiger II Maybach HL 230 P30 V12 GASOLINE Yes, they were. But the later ones like Panther and Tiger had an automatic Halon fire suppressing system. While you can't breathe, you don't burn so you have a lot more time to escape. Also the usually larger cannon and better Armour kept the enemy at a distance which made it more unlikely to start a fire. But the superior amour had the disadvantage of fuel economy. The range was very limited and towards the end of the war, they often ran out of fuel. Also those heavy tanks couldn't use small bridges - the Tiger-II was even unable to cross most bridges due to its weight.
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Post by oldcodger on Mar 29, 2014 2:36:20 GMT
There are a lot of things in a tank that can catch fire:hydraulic fluids,ammunition,rubber...even the paint that is painted on the inside of the turret can cause a fire(which is why some Soviet tank crews chipped away all the paint in their T-34s fighting compartment). And while diesel has a higher flash point than gasoline once that flash point is reached diesel burns quite nicely.And the automatic fire suppression systems for both the Pzkw V Panther and the Tiger I were for the engine compartment only.
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Post by c64 on Mar 29, 2014 19:13:46 GMT
There are a lot of things in a tank that can catch fire:hydraulic fluids,ammunition,rubber...even the paint that is painted on the inside of the turret can cause a fire(which is why some Soviet tank crews chipped away all the paint in their T-34s fighting compartment). There are war stories that convoys passed obviously burned out T-34s which then suddenly opened fire after half of the convoy had passed causing lots of damage. Sounds like a T-34 has partial functionality even when it had burned. And while diesel has a higher flash point than gasoline once that flash point is reached diesel burns quite nicely.And the automatic fire suppression systems for both the Pzkw V Panther and the Tiger I were for the engine compartment only. And that's where the gas tank is located. It's usually outside the Armour of the compartment. It's true that burning diesel will burn well, but it takes more heat to do so. Movie fireballs are made with a small explosive inside a bag of gasoline. The gasoline is spraid to vapors easily. Diesel is different, it needs help to create enough vapors and that means a wick or lots of heat. Put some diesel in an open can and try to light it. It's almost impossible except you use a wick or heat the diesel up to above 130°C. Maybe if Neal Darnell performs near where you live, you can ask him about what he thinks about using kerosene or a Diesel/gas mix as many of his colleagues.
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Post by oldcodger on Apr 12, 2014 18:39:38 GMT
Yes, they were. But the later ones like Panther and Tiger had an automatic Halon fire suppressing system. While you can't breathe, you don't burn so you have a lot more time to escape. Also the usually larger cannon and better Armour kept the enemy at a distance which made it more unlikely to start a fire. But the superior amour had the disadvantage of fuel economy. The range was very limited and towards the end of the war, they often ran out of fuel. Also those heavy tanks couldn't use small bridges - the Tiger-II was even unable to cross most bridges due to its weight.
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