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Post by ironhold on Dec 7, 2013 23:56:30 GMT
A common cliche in various movies is that all you have to do is don a uniform of some sort and people don't recognize you.
In some instances (such as with a janitor's outfit), it's supposed to be because the person is in a job that most folks take for granted.
In other instances (such as a police officer's uniform), it's supposed to be because the person is too busy looking at the uniform itself and giving it respect.
"Unsolved History" technically tested the latter as part of their exploration into the St. Valentine's Massacre (two known hitmen were disguised as police officers), but their sample pool for the test consisted of a single person.
So - can the donning of a uniform, in and of itself, cause a person to not realize who's actually wearing it?
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 8, 2013 9:23:59 GMT
Someone tried something like this recently in the UK...
They put on a High-Vis jacket, and started ordering Traffic and Pedestrians to avoid a certain street....
If I put on the High-Vis jacket and start holding up traffic to help reverse a wagon out onto a road, most people will comply without fuss.
I suspect that if you tried to put on the uniform and go work in a shop, the PUBLIC would ignore who you are...
The staff may wonder who the new person is and ask............
In the places I work, its common to get challenged...
But then again, a LOT of it is high security.
Not that its anything valuable, more that its forklifting dangerous to walk under a forklift....
Or under the nose of a boing 747...
Therefore challenge anyone you dont know.
I did one time, I challenged someone in a suit...
He showed me his security pass with no questions asked, just a smile...
I recognised the name immediately, it was the National boss... I had never met him before...
He then said "I dont know who YOU are either?..."
So of course, I had to show my clearance.
He was perfectly OK with it, as he said, he would have been more upset if I had just walked past him....
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Post by the light works on Dec 8, 2013 17:12:54 GMT
some TV program that mrs TLW watches did that. they dressed a person as a news reporter and asked people's opinions of made up things.
most of the people did not question the veracity of the thing they were being asked about.
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Post by Cybermortis on Dec 9, 2013 21:34:07 GMT
Do you mean that the wearer is someone who might otherwise be identified? Or that people tend not to look too closely at someone who is wearing a uniform, and as such may not realise that that individual shouldn't be in a particular area?
To the former I'll note that Adam has been correctly identified at Com-Con by people regardless of what he happened to be wearing, be that Stormtrooper armour or a giant floating head costume. The record was something in the region of five minutes after he walked out of his hotel room. As soon as he hit the hotel lobby he was recognised, even though he was dressed as a Nazgol.
The latter I half remember coming from various spy movies and shows.
In both cases we need at least one specific example I think.
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Post by ironhold on Dec 9, 2013 23:05:16 GMT
It came to mind this past weekend after watching the WWII film "Saints and Soldiers".
Two GIs caught behind enemy lines have rescued a crewman from an RAF recon plane; he has vital intelligence data, but because he wrote his notes in code he has to get back to Allied lines alive.
The trio have located a Jeep that the Germans captured, and have stripped three dead Germans for their uniforms and gear. One of the two GIs is fluent in German, and so he serves as driver. The RAF crewman is wounded in the leg, and so he is wrapped in a blanket and told to pretend that he is seriously ill. The GI who isn't fluent remains silent. The plan is to bluff their way past a crude checkpoint set up at an outpost the Germans established near the front.
The RAF pilot and the fluent GI succeed in convincing the outpost commander that they've been assigned to take a sick man to the nearest field hospital, which just so happens to be near the outpost. When the commander goes to question the non-fluent GI, the fluent GI guns the engine as if the Jeep is stuck in the mud, distracting the commander and causing a group of German soldiers to give them a push. It isn't until they turn the wrong way (the field hospital is to the left; they turned right) that anyone realizes something's wrong.
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Post by the light works on Dec 10, 2013 1:29:14 GMT
the myth is about an unknown person presenting an appearance of authority/respectability; rather than a known person attempting to disguise himself.
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Post by ironhold on Dec 10, 2013 4:45:22 GMT
the myth is about an unknown person presenting an appearance of authority/respectability; rather than a known person attempting to disguise himself. ...that's my point. |
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Post by the light works on Dec 10, 2013 5:21:10 GMT
the myth is about an unknown person presenting an appearance of authority/respectability; rather than a known person attempting to disguise himself. ...that's my point. I was spelling it out for cyber. |
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Post by ironhold on Dec 10, 2013 5:31:33 GMT
I was spelling it out for cyber. Sorry. |
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Post by User Unavailable on Dec 10, 2013 7:05:37 GMT
Well, it all depends on how much security is involved and who you are trying to fool.
Under lax security protocols, a uniform may be all you need. If however, a security key card or biometric scan is required, just a uniform won't cut it.
Who you are trying to fool plays a role as well, sometimes a uniform might be all you need, sometimes you may need a perfect uniform and the knowledge to support that you are who the uniform says you are or you cover will be blown.
An example of this from a movie is The Big Red One with Lee Marvin.
At the Christ on the Cross location, the Germans are setting up an ambush for Lee Marvin's squad.
While scouting the area, Marvin notes that the "Dead Tank Crew" have the wrong color piping on their collar and shoulder insignia and cleverly alerts his squad to the ambush, whence they then kill the ambushers.
Lee Marvin's knowledge of the enemy uniforms saved them. Even though the Germans were wearing their actual uniforms, they were the wrong unit type to be manning the tank and the tank crew was dead outside the tank.
Moving around the periphery, "acting natural" and not drawing attention to yourself, any more than needed, also help out with pulling off a disguise.
In the pic below, you all may see a young Marine LT. I and other Marines INSTANTLY see a fake and poser. There is just too much wrong with his uniform, that it a absolutely screams, "Lookit me! Lookit me! I'm a fake!"
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 10, 2013 7:17:05 GMT
Again, it depends on how you fit in with the scenery...
If I jump in to reverse a wagon out of a loading bay with someone watching the rear end for me in a high-vis jacket, because I have already identified that person before I start the move, (They will be part of the team on the loading bay or another driver I know well, etc...) and therefore, I will follow their directions...
If some random pedestrian starts trying, I will ignore them....
Doesnt matter what they are wearing.....
But I have been TRAINED to be suspect.
Paranoia is healthy when you cant see exactly what you are doing...
Security premises, especially those where I dont know anyone, are a hell of a job for security, because I just KNOW someone will try to "Tailgate" me through a gate...
Even as a pedestrian....
And yes that has happened.
From someone I know's report..
It was later discovered that person had tried repeatedly to gain access to the building...
No one knows why, they didnt work there, and eventually gave up, but details were passed to police.
You can fool people who dont know, but those who DO know are more liable to spot something wrong...
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Post by the light works on Dec 10, 2013 15:02:21 GMT
however, when you go lower on the chain of security; suppose you are on an out of town vacation (holiday) and have the urge to try the local cuisine. are you more likely to ask for a restaurant recommendation from the guy wearing the bermuda shorts, loud shirt, and camera around his neck, or are you more likely to ask the guy wearing the work pants and jacket?
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 13, 2013 7:33:58 GMT
On Vacation, If I want a good meal served with minimum fuss, I count the Trucks.
If I cant park closer that 10 trucks away, I ant going anywhere else, because thats a good "Greasy spoon"...
If I want something a little more classy, I ask where the locals would go for a meal.
Thats probably a drive OUT of town, as they tend to find quieter places where people with Pentax Stoop and shirts louder than Metalica dont go.
If its a Suit-And-Tie meal and silver service, I find out what the locals would use as bloody good excuse to not turn up..............
I want the type of place where "Its as good as my Mamma can make", as the Greeks would say, where you can take the WHOLE family, where there is no snobby wine waiter who looks at you like you are a pleb if you DONT go for the most expensive bottle, and the food is THAT good....
Also, Food.
As you all know, I have spent time in Kitchens.
Food for me should arrive with enough on the plate to ensure you fill yourself.... it should be a FULL meal for a healthy person, not a light snack for a supermodel?...
If I order Prawns, thats PLURAL, I want more than one on the plate, and not one hidden under the smallest lettuce leaf on the plant.
I do not see plate dressing as an art form.
Its NOT.
I see modern fools "Dressing" a plate with a pair of tweezers?...
GET THE FORK OUT....
As in, if its not big enough to be put in place by a fork, I dont want it on the plate?...
Towers?...
Why use a plate 14 inch wide if the whole meal will occupy a 5 inch "Tower"....
Now stop playing with my food will you.
The art form is in getting it right in the first place.
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Post by the light works on Dec 13, 2013 7:56:12 GMT
On Vacation, If I want a good meal served with minimum fuss, I count the Trucks. If I cant park closer that 10 trucks away, I ant going anywhere else, because thats a good "Greasy spoon"... If I want something a little more classy, I ask where the locals would go for a meal. Thats probably a drive OUT of town, as they tend to find quieter places where people with Pentax Stoop and shirts louder than Metalica dont go. If its a Suit-And-Tie meal and silver service, I find out what the locals would use as bloody good excuse to not turn up.............. I want the type of place where "Its as good as my Mamma can make", as the Greeks would say, where you can take the WHOLE family, where there is no snobby wine waiter who looks at you like you are a pleb if you DONT go for the most expensive bottle, and the food is THAT good.... Also, Food. As you all know, I have spent time in Kitchens. Food for me should arrive with enough on the plate to ensure you fill yourself.... it should be a FULL meal for a healthy person, not a light snack for a supermodel?... If I order Prawns, thats PLURAL, I want more than one on the plate, and not one hidden under the smallest lettuce leaf on the plant. I do not see plate dressing as an art form. Its NOT. I see modern fools "Dressing" a plate with a pair of tweezers?... GET THE FORK OUT.... As in, if its not big enough to be put in place by a fork, I dont want it on the plate?... Towers?... Why use a plate 14 inch wide if the whole meal will occupy a 5 inch "Tower".... Now stop playing with my food will you. The art form is in getting it right in the first place. I don't know if you have the show "chopped" on your side of the pond - or a variant (contestants are given a basket of odd ingredients and must make food containing all of them) some rounds I look and think that looks fun. some rounds I look and think "I'd forfeit on the spot, because I won't eat that - and as such I also can't serve it." |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 13, 2013 9:06:19 GMT
No we dont have that show.
But we do have Masterchef, and a plethora of other ones...
I have been watching the Australian Masterchef...
Its better than the British one merely that the have DECENT grub.
I think its because we all got "civilised" that one lettuce leaf one prawn and an eye-dropper of mayonnaise and tomato makes an "Art" plate........
By the way, its the joke, prawn cocktail is known as "the culinary joke", because of what it is.
We have GOOD food, AKA "The Hairy Bikers", The great British Bake off, and the like, but then it gets all silver service joke, and thats where I loose interest.
Food should NOT be Posh.
You can be posh and have good food, and yes, all the good to you if you do, enjoy what you have...
But I have been instructed by those who are against the "If you have to ask the price you cant afford it" culinary idiots.
Food should be GOOD, affordable, and in varying quantities.
If someone asks for a small plate because they are on a diet, its done with no fuss, and a child sized portion is offered.
Those who have "Allergies" we do the best we can, but can NOT guarantee we are allergy free for every single allergy....
Those who are "Vegan", there are other restaurants available.
We are not a Vegan restraint.
How far have we wandered off topic?...
Ok, does the uniform maketh the man. Or Woman....
Yes.
If you wear the Chefs clothing, its because you ARE the chef.
And we all know who you are....
If you are not the chef we know, we want to know why you are in OUR kitchen?...
No you cant just walk in and start messing with my Knives...
Do the clothes maketh the person on the other side of the counter?...
Where I have worked its always been Smart Casual and non aggressive.
We would never allow football politics, so no "Team" shirts unless its a national team that everyone supports.
It always been family friendly.
Its always been NO to drunks.
Shorts Flip-Flops and t-shirt are not acceptable, dirty work overalls, muddy boots, or any other kind of stained or dirty clothing have always been refused.
We have never insisted on a tie either, because its usually a relaxed atmosphere, and if you ask how a dish is made, we are happy to tell you everything....
So Yes, the clothes DO matter in food outlets.
And as for our Head chef, on the one place I worked that I enjoyed the most, he NEVER appeared in public if his clothes had spills on them.
If he was called front of house, he would change his shirt and apron before he went out...
For him, the look DID matter, he may look tired, but there is no excuse for dirty clothes in front of customers.
And we all had to wear clean overalls every day.
No excuses.
After the shift, we changed, and everything went in the laundry, cleaned for the next shift.
It was common for the Head chef to invite "Certain" members of the public into the Kitchen to see how their meal was made....
Kept us on out toes, made sure we kept the place and ourselves clean.
So yes, it depends on the where and how, but what you wear, and how you wear it, makes you "That" person.
Now-a-days, I enter certain restricted area's, I wear my own Uniform, I am HIGHLY viable, and people "know Who I am"....
Could I be imitated?...
Could someone "Pretend" to be me?...
I doubt it.
Could they "Pretend" to be someone else doing my job?...
Highly Unlikely.
Security Checks.
And checks again....
One place I have been to, if they dont recognise you, they phone the place that sent you there and ask for a description....
Doesn't matter if you have an Av-Sec pass, they still want verification that the numberplate on the wagon is genuine....
Yes you CAN put on the clothes of a road-worker, grab a few cones, and "Direct" traffic...
But only for so long.
As soon as Mr Dibble, the local flat-foot, gets wind, he will be asking questions....
Some of my loads, we check first with all local authorities for known road works and diversions, to plan a route....
If its a certain size, weight, etc, it then can NOT be diverted.
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Post by the light works on Dec 13, 2013 14:41:54 GMT
On the other end of that topic, I was thinking just this morning that we may be due to give the young'uns another gentle reminder that we do NOT condone engaging in certain activities while wearing department apparel. if you want to stop at the bar for some drinks, that's all on you; but change out of your department T-shirt, and leave your pager at home (and don't turn it on again until 12 hours AND a shower and teeth brushed) department rule is that if you are on official "business" and someone says they smell alcohol on your breath; you get a ride with the ranking officer down to the hospital to provide a specimen. if you are clean, you just get a reminder of breath hygeine. if you have alcohol in your blood, you go into the disciplinary system.
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Post by paulsee on Dec 14, 2013 14:45:28 GMT
Should be interesting to try. Can expand the myth to making unremarkable looking people look really remarkable.
Although in real life, I find that this is attempted a lot of times. Accused in court, Gate Crashers at the White House and the recent fake deaf interpreter in Madella's funeral to name a few.
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 15, 2013 9:57:30 GMT
This could be fun.
Take one almost unremarkable person, make them walk through a crowded shopping mall in "Average" street clothes.
Then transform them to full Biker hells angel, and see if people react different....
Then do one in full Military just got off the plane from Afghanistan gear.
Try Police uniform.
Then full Paramedic gear "In a hurry" towing a stretcher asking people to make way....
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Post by the light works on Dec 15, 2013 15:58:30 GMT
This could be fun. Take one almost unremarkable person, make them walk through a crowded shopping mall in "Average" street clothes. Then transform them to full Biker hells angel, and see if people react different.... Then do one in full Military just got off the plane from Afghanistan gear. Try Police uniform. Then full Paramedic gear "In a hurry" towing a stretcher asking people to make way.... determine what outfit gets them through te mall with the least impedimet, and sell the results. |
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Post by silverdragon on Dec 19, 2013 8:11:32 GMT
If you want and outfit that gets you a clear space around you, if you want an outfit guaranteed to get you your own carriage on a train, I can get you one.
It will be a set of overalls fresh from a good friend of mine who keeps Cows...
He uses them to clear away the muck.
Guaranteed to get him to the front of the que in the bank as well.
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