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Post by ironhold on Aug 26, 2014 19:06:42 GMT
I suspect Vader wasn't consulted during the design phase - and as you will recall, he took the fighter attack seriously. as for the second death star - remember that it was not finished - though the emperor insisted in activating all weapons systems despite it not being finished. This is what I'm thinking. If you'll recall, when the random staff officer tried to inform the admiral that the X-Wings might in fact have found a flaw in the Death Star's defenses, the admiral dismissed him outright. "Sir, I have analyzed their attack pattern and there is a danger. Should I order an evacuation?" "Evacuate?! In our moment of triumph?! I think you overestimate their chances!" The admiral obviously did not believe that individual fighters could ever pose a danger to something like the Death Star, hence his sluggish response. Meanwhile, the expanded universe (I want to say the book "Darksaber") had it that when Emperor Palpatine found out why the Death Star was vulnerable he had the engineer who designed it fed to carnivorous insects... and then brought back to life via cloning & the Force so that he could witness the insects finish devouring his original body. It was made clear that he was to fix the matter and would not get another clone if he failed a second time.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 26, 2014 19:34:16 GMT
That was Grand Moff Tarkin. From what I can tell 'Moff' was a military Governor, most likely one who answered directly to the Emperor - which would explain why Tarkin was able to order Vader around.
I'd assume that 'Grand Moff' was an individual who's power was second only to the Emperor and Vader. As I recall there was a single individual present at the earlier meeting on the Death Star wearing a white uniform. As this was later identified to be the uniform of a Grand Admiral, and they only reported to the Emperor himself we can make the reasonable assumption that a Grand Moff was at least equal in rank. It is possible that Grand Moff's were similar to Grand Admirals, but their skills were more organizational and bureaucratic in nature than pure military. (Which would make sense of the poor command decisions Tarkin made at Yavin)
It is possible therefore that 'Moff' was similar, in that it was an Admiral who was better suited to Governing worlds than commanding fleets. 'Moff's' are mentioned in passing in the extended universe, but 'Grand Moff's' are not. So it is also possible that Tarkin was the only 'Grand Moff' in the Empire. This is opposed to Grand Admirals, of whom we hear/'see' two (the unnamed man in the white uniform on the first Death Star and Thrawn). It was however noted that there had been others, all of whom had been tracked down and killed - or at least accounted for five years after Yavin.
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Post by the light works on Aug 26, 2014 19:48:57 GMT
That was Grand Moff Tarkin. From what I can tell 'Moff' was a military Governor, most likely one who answered directly to the Emperor - which would explain why Tarkin was able to order Vader around. I'd assume that 'Grand Moff' was an individual who's power was second only to the Emperor and Vader. As I recall there was a single individual present at the earlier meeting on the Death Star wearing a white uniform. As this was later identified to be the uniform of a Grand Admiral, and they only reported to the Emperor himself we can make the reasonable assumption that a Grand Moff was at least equal in rank. It is possible that Grand Moff's were similar to Grand Admirals, but their skills were more organizational and bureaucratic in nature than pure military. (Which would make sense of the poor command decisions Tarkin made at Yavin) It is possible therefore that 'Moff' was similar, in that it was an Admiral who was better suited to Governing worlds than commanding fleets. 'Moff's' are mentioned in passing in the extended universe, but 'Grand Moff's' are not. So it is also possible that Tarkin was the only 'Grand Moff' in the Empire. This is opposed to Grand Admirals, of whom we hear/'see' two (the unnamed man in the white uniform on the first Death Star and Thrawn). It was however noted that there had been others, all of whom had been tracked down and killed - or at least accounted for five years after Yavin. as I recall, a Moff was a governor - sometimes of a planet, and sometimes of a system or sector. I would assume a grand moff had a number of moffs reporting to him, and then reported to the emperor - with a similar structure among the admiralty - there you have a naval and not-naval division. therefore it may be that Tarkin was the only grand moff and ALL of the moffs reported to him - or he was simply the only one ever mentioned; through being in the wrong place and making the wrong decisions. This DOES explain why he is on a naval vessel, rather than stuck planetside somewhere, and why he is making decision that should otherwise be naval decisions. this would give three separate chain of command: the naval chain, commanded by the admiralty, the not-naval chain commanded by the Moffs, and the Emperor's minions who might or might not accept orders from chains they are stationed alongside. (Tarkin was able to give orders to Vader, but Vader was able to both issue his own orders, and issue orders (and adjustments of rank) to others.
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Post by Cybermortis on Aug 26, 2014 20:59:34 GMT
It is noted on Wookiepedia that Takin held the rank of Admiral, and he is certainly wearing an Admirals uniform. So 'Moff' is presumably a position rather than a rank, which would be in keeping with the Empire maintaining power through military force - even against its own populations. This would explain why he is on the Death Star and giving orders, even if all of those in the room hold the rank of Admiral he is presumably the stations commander and would have seniority anyway.
Tarkin mentions 'regional governors' rather than using the term 'Moff' when describing how the Emperor will maintain power without the senate. From this I would guess that Moff referred to military governors rather than all governors, most of whom would presumably be technically civilians. That would make sense, as Palpatine would have needed support from politically minded individuals up to Ep IV when the senate was disbanded. Presumably he would reward the more trustworthy of them with Governorships, or use the possibility of getting a governorship to foster infighting between members of the senate who otherwise might have caused him problems. Hitler did something similar after taking power, creating tension and infighting between various fractions so they expended most of their energy fighting each other rather than fighting him.
Vader was on the Death Star as an observer, reminding the assembled Admirals who they reported to, so lay outside the chain of command. That said, his willingness to defer to Tarkin and apparent inability or unwillingness to countermand his orders (the fighters that were launched were directly under Vader's command) does imply a high degree of trust, most likely backed up by trust and orders to that effect from the Emperor.
Imperial forces seem to have been split between the Fleet and the Army, since a General Veers appears in Ep V, with the fleet being the 'senior' service. (In light of the Clone Troopers this again would actually make sense. A fleet can't take a planet without ground troops, while ground forces can't get to a planet without ships.) There would presumably be special forces and intelligence departments, as well as research and development and logistics.
As far as the Emperor himself is concerned. He did have his own agents - the hands, first and foremost of which would have been Vader - as well as at least some military personal who bypassed the normal chain of command, principally the Grand Admirals.
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Post by ironhold on Aug 26, 2014 21:16:56 GMT
So basically, "A bureaucrat wound up in command of something beyond what he was competent to command, and as a result he gave orders & ignored threats to the point that the Empire suffered a serious setback from which it never fully recovered."
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Post by the light works on Aug 26, 2014 21:19:23 GMT
It is noted on Wookiepedia that Takin held the rank of Admiral, and he is certainly wearing an Admirals uniform. So 'Moff' is presumably a position rather than a rank, which would be in keeping with the Empire maintaining power through military force - even against its own populations. This would explain why he is on the Death Star and giving orders, even if all of those in the room hold the rank of Admiral he is presumably the stations commander and would have seniority anyway. Tarkin mentions 'regional governors' rather than using the term 'Moff' when describing how the Emperor will maintain power without the senate. From this I would guess that Moff referred to military governors rather than all governors, most of whom would presumably be technically civilians. That would make sense, as Palpatine would have needed support from politically minded individuals up to Ep IV when the senate was disbanded. Presumably he would reward the more trustworthy of them with Governorships, or use the possibility of getting a governorship to foster infighting between members of the senate who otherwise might have caused him problems. Hitler did something similar after taking power, creating tension and infighting between various fractions so they expended most of their energy fighting each other rather than fighting him. Vader was on the Death Star as an observer, reminding the assembled Admirals who they reported to, so lay outside the chain of command. That said, his willingness to defer to Tarkin and apparent inability or unwillingness to countermand his orders (the fighters that were launched were directly under Vader's command) does imply a high degree of trust, most likely backed up by trust and orders to that effect from the Emperor. Imperial forces seem to have been split between the Fleet and the Army, since a General Veers appears in Ep V, with the fleet being the 'senior' service. (In light of the Clone Troopers this again would actually make sense. A fleet can't take a planet without ground troops, while ground forces can't get to a planet without ships.) There would presumably be special forces and intelligence departments, as well as research and development and logistics. As far as the Emperor himself is concerned. He did have his own agents - the hands, first and foremost of which would have been Vader - as well as at least some military personal who bypassed the normal chain of command, principally the Grand Admirals. it still does not disallow the idea of having two primary branches of power: one military and one political. there is certainly history of terrestrial military officers transferring directly or indirectly to political power. In fact, the fact that Grand Moff Tarkin was an admiral, as well could be related to him holding the apparently unique rank. Vaders willingness in Episode IV to take orders from Tarkin could simply be that Vader currently did not feel he had a need to challenge Tarkin at the time.
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Post by the light works on Aug 26, 2014 21:24:14 GMT
So basically, "A bureaucrat wound up in command of something beyond what he was competent to command, and as a result he gave orders & ignored threats to the point that the Empire suffered a serious setback from which it never fully recovered." more like an admiral became overimpressed with his new battle station and it resulted in him ignoring risks he should have paid more attention to. you might think of it as "titanic syndrome"
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Post by mrfatso on Aug 27, 2014 19:03:07 GMT
There is in the Imperial Source book of WEG rpg a very good summary of the way that the Empire under Palpatine was organised, the book itself is an equivalent to the Rebel,Source Book CM has mentioned. the organisation of the New Order was similar in many ways to that of the Nazis in WWII, with multiple organisations controlling their own areas, such as COMPNOR, the Commission for the Presevation of the. New Order, basically the Gestapo and propaganda branch. starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial_Sourcebook_(Second_Edition) There were, more than one Grand Moffs, they appointed by the Emperor himself, and where in command of an over sector, that where subject to Rebel attack or infiltration, in theory they where lower in rank to a. Grand Admiral , but I would guess that Tarkin was given more latitude than others as he had direct control of the Death Star. Takin appears as a character in the Star Wars Clone Wars animated series as a Captain and is later promoted to,Admiral as the series progresses.
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 30, 2014 7:10:19 GMT
Because we don't want our DVDs worn out so quickly, I'm in the habit of making digital copies onto a USB HDD that we can connect directly to our TV*.
I've just been doing that with Girlfriend's box set of Grey's Anatomy and had to name every episode, when it occured to me how incredibly lazy the writers of that show have been in naming them. Every episode is named after a song title. They've even included the original parentheses in the titles, like in season 5, episode 21 that's called "No Good at Saying Sorry (One More Chance)".
Not being a fan of the show, I haven't seen more than a couple of episodes, but the ones I've seen, okay... The plot of each episode has at least a little to do with the song titles they've chosen. But then I got to season 10, episode 18 and it just got stupid! The name of that episode?
"You Be Illin'"
I kid you not! I haven't watched the episode, but I can't in my wildest dreams imagine how a title like that can possibly relate in any meaningful way to a show about (primarily white) doctors! It's just way too damn stupid!
*For the mods: It's perfectly legal, since we buy and keep the DVDs afterwards and don't share the copies with anyone else.
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Post by mrfatso on Sept 30, 2014 11:43:37 GMT
I would have to note that that depends on where you live, it was only June of this year that copying DVDs and CDs for your personal use actually became legal here in the UK.
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Post by OziRiS on Sept 30, 2014 17:25:16 GMT
I would have to note that that depends on where you live, it was only June of this year that copying DVDs and CDs for your personal use actually became legal here in the UK. I've checked the laws here in Denmark. As long as it's "for personal use only", you're in the clear. If anyone asks, all you have to do to prove it is show that you still have the original. Which also means that if you sell or give away the original, you're not entitled to keep the copy anymore. Not that I've ever heard of anyone checking...
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Post by mrfatso on Sept 30, 2014 17:57:29 GMT
No one ever bothered with it here either, but it's possible some places might take a different view, I just remembered that it had only just changed as a new law, regarding parodies came into effect yesterday, and it was mentioned as well.
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Post by the light works on Sept 30, 2014 18:02:30 GMT
I recall the "make copies for personal use" trend back in the days of records and cassettes - I would not have considered it for optical media - except they ARE still subject to physical damage in the loading process. still, I am of the nature that my optical media is more likely to fail from materials degradation before they fail from damage.
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Post by Cybermortis on Sept 30, 2014 19:41:25 GMT
I think that this would be one case where only the most moronic prosecutor would bother trying to take things to court, as long as the copy is purely for your own use. Even if they won such a case the outcry at such a waste of public funds and the totally unreasonable attitude would most likely make such an individuals position impossible to maintain.
In the UK it seems that that particular part of the law was never enforced by the courts, as long as it really was for personal use. It was/is if anything the music companies themselves who tended to try and seek legal action for people making mix tapes and the like. And even then they tended not to try this unless the tape in question was being sold or passed around.
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Post by tom1b on Oct 1, 2014 8:50:12 GMT
I think that this would be one case where only the most moronic prosecutor would bother trying to take things to court, as long as the copy is purely for your own use. Even if they won such a case the outcry at such a waste of public funds and the totally unreasonable attitude would most likely make such an individuals position impossible to maintain. In the UK it seems that that particular part of the law was never enforced by the courts, as long as it really was for personal use. It was/is if anything the music companies themselves who tended to try and seek legal action for people making mix tapes and the like. And even then they tended not to try this unless the tape in question was being sold or passed around. It's not the prosecutor or the government you have to worry about. You have to worry about civil action from the copyright holder. Back in 2003, DirecTV brought suit against anybody that had purchased smartcard readers. They claimed that every single person that purchased a reader did so with the sole intent of pirating satellite signals. The Appeals court finally brought an end to DirecTV's lawsuits in 2007. In the US, it is technically copyright infringement to make any copy of any copyrighted material. Photocopy a page from a book or magazine, make a mix tape, rip a CD/DVD for your own use all technical violations of the law.
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Post by ironhold on Oct 1, 2014 23:50:31 GMT
Not entirely. US law recognizes the concept of "Fair Use" in regards to copyrights, meaning that certain exceptions can be made to copyright law depending upon the nature of what a person is trying to do.
For example, parodies of copyrighted works usually fall under the "Fair Use" clause unless there is a separate issue at play.
If you wish to know more, I'd suggest calling up an actual lawyer.
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Post by the light works on Oct 2, 2014 0:20:27 GMT
Not entirely. US law recognizes the concept of "Fair Use" in regards to copyrights, meaning that certain exceptions can be made to copyright law depending upon the nature of what a person is trying to do. For example, parodies of copyrighted works usually fall under the "Fair Use" clause unless there is a separate issue at play. If you wish to know more, I'd suggest calling up an actual lawyer. the professional parodyists usually get permission before doing a parody, anyway. what really tested "fair use" was when all the rappers started doing "sampling" - which meant taking a section of a popular song, and duplicating it except with two notes changed, to avoid copyright infringement. the best known example is "under pressure" and "Ice Ice Baby"
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Post by wvengineer on Jan 2, 2015 1:07:33 GMT
In honor of 2015, last night I watched Back to the Future Part II. There are plenty of plot holes, bit the the largest ones is as follows. They make a point of establishing the rule that you cannot meet and/or interact with your past or future self. Doing so would cause both subjects to go into shock and pass out. The other option is that the meeting would cause a paradox that would cause the destruction of space/time and destroy the universe, or at lease our galaxy. They then go on to confirm the first one is what happens when Jennifer meats her future self, causing both to pass out in shock.
So if that is the rule, how is it that Biff is able to go back in time and not only meet but interact with his younger self to extended lengths? They established earlier that this is not possible.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 2, 2015 13:16:23 GMT
Ouch. Time paradox, something I have investigated, and am stuck with languages, because mixing tenses is confused.
But basics..... If you could interact with yourself and stop you doing something, it would alter the future past, and there you can see what the language barrier is?... Its bot future and past dependant on what side of the conversation you are having is, but that conversation is present and past. at the same time....
This world has a linear time existence, there is speculation that there may be places in the universe where that isnt so, but we here have a linear existence. So the event horizon is paramount... you cant stop an egg from breaking that has already hit the floor.
Because we already know that time travel into the past is impossible at this point, we know its impossible in the foreseeable future. Otherwise, we know already that "Someone" would have gone back and shot hitler a long time before he made any difference?...
[And in saying that I am exempt from Godwins law, because if there were things in the past you could change, that was one of them. That is just one example of history changes that could be done.... there are others, but that one is the one I am using as example, not a discussion point please?...]
In the far future, will we change from a linear existence to non linear?...
Some suggestions are that that is a non reversible event, and in doing so, you change your existence so much it creates its own event horizon, in that the action its self prevents intrusion back past its own invention, as in we change dimensions....
So we have the parable in WV's question, Law and Chaos. Law states you should not do something, and in the case of "Jenifer" it is proved. Biff was persistent, perhaps it took several undocumented meetings to get the result he wanted?.. but he will ignore law until the point where he gets what he wanted, perhaps by influencing the others around his previous self....
Remembering that ignorance of the law sometimes leads to invention. If we all accepted "You can not do that", then that hover board thats just gone on sale would never have been invented, because anti-gravity is against the laws of physics.... And yes, it was the hover board in back to the future that directly influenced the design of that real world board... they just kept on working at linear motors and magnets until they got something that is a true anti-gravity machine in all descriptions of anti-gravity.
So you have the law that you should not meet yourself, and those that will always try.
Rules are there to be broken.
This is the only answer that fits the story on tale here.....
Enter Scotty on the enterprise... Yea cannae change the laws of physics.
Oh yes you bloody well can, and you, sonny jim, are one of the main influences on why we change the laws of physics.... I am now posting this on a small mobile device that would be the heart of those small mobile electronic pads that your crew use, that were completely unknown and "impossible" when you first said those words.....
So Impossible is only something that no one has done yet.
We have to accept there are more things we dont know that we dont know, and the future is always far beyond understanding.
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Post by silverdragon on Jan 2, 2015 13:23:59 GMT
And by the way, being that CERN has just discovered there are protons that DO travel faster than light.... Can I now have a complete consensus that time has nothing at all to do with the speed of light. Its just a measurement, after all, and light travels at its own speed, we dont measure time by the speed of sound do we?...
One hour is one hour, independent of the speed you are travelling at, and the thing about time passing different at different speeds is just proof of the possibility of a non linear existence. Light speed is just one measurement on that scale. Its not the end of the scale, its just one point. The same as "Zero" Fahrenheit is just one point of a scale that we know goes to minus, and down to a new zero in a scale we call Kelvin. There is no upper limit on temperature, so why should anyone try to impose one on speed?...
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