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Post by OziRiS on Jun 22, 2014 0:12:38 GMT
Can throwing a burning cigarette into a pile of dry leaves or undergrowth really start a forest fire?
I've been told repeatedly, both as a child and as an adult, that throwing any ignition source, be that a burning cigarette, a burning match or piece of glass out in the wild during the summer, could potentially start a forest fire, so I just shouldn't do it. The physical evidence I have at this point suggests that a cigarette isn't enough though and as we've seen with cigarettes and gasoline, the cigarette just doesn't burn hot enough to set it ablaze.
I've always heeded the warning and have never thrown a cigarette anywhere dry, but I've also always wondered if there was actually anything to it, or if it's just another one of these things that people assume to be right and therefore perpetuate because it just seems to make sense.
I've been doing some home testing on this for a while and so far it's coming up busted, but there's enough anecdotal evidence out there to suggest there's at least some truth to this, so I'd like to have it tested on the show. First off, just to see if I'm right, but secondly it's because I can't help but believe there may be others out there who share my skepticism and might not, as I do, take the warning seriously, which could potentially be creating some dangerous situations.
So far I've done controlled testing with the following:
- A bunch of naturally dried leaves, both in a barbecue and in an open space (assuming wind might be a factor). I've used 3 different types of leaves (beech, oak and birch) and one type of pine needles (red spruce). No effect. At best, the cigarette leaves burn marks, but there's not even any real smoldering to suggest they might catch fire.
- Same 3 types of naturally dried leaves and pine needles left in an oven at 80 degrees celcius for 8 hours to dry even further. Same result.
- Dried moss. Got a little smoldering, but it never caught fire. Not even after blowing on it.
- A combination of dried moss (which gave the best smoldering effect) and dried leaves/pine needles (which I found would burn for a longer period of time than the moss when actually set on fire, giving the best conditions for spreading the fire). Still nothing.
Assuming there's actually some truth to this, under what conditions is this even possible?
I'm thinking that I'm either using the wrong vegetation, that it's not dry enough or that wind plays a factor that I just haven't been able to replicate. Might it only be possible in places in the world where the vegetation is subjected to prolonged dry seasons at high temperatures? If so, what places and temperatures are we talking about and over how long a period of time?
Usually when I read about forest fires supposedly being started by a thrown cigarette, the report is: "We think it was started by a cigarette".
I have yet to come across a single case where someone could say with 100% certainty that a cigarette was the ignition source, probably because the evidence is always burned away and doesn't leave a trace.
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Post by ponytail61 on Jun 22, 2014 0:34:07 GMT
Try grass. Dig up some sod and let it dry out. I have set my front lawn on fire before by flicking a butt onto a relatively dry lawn with a slight breeze. It's more of a smolder but it does grow and with the right fuel in it's path I can't see why it wouldn't flare up.
See many roadside smolders here in the summer that once they reach taller grass or other fuel source turn into a pretty good size burn.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 22, 2014 11:37:11 GMT
Yes it can cause fires.
The main problem being it may take a few mins to produce results, and by then, you have walked away and forgotten.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 22, 2014 12:18:29 GMT
Yes it can cause fires. The main problem being it may take a few mins to produce results, and by then, you have walked away and forgotten. See, that's the problem. I've placed a lit cigarette - a whole one, not just the butt - in these different types of dried leaves and moss and stayed to watch what happens, hoping it would catch fire, but nothing happens. It just burns all the way to the end and extinguishes without leaving anything but ashes and sligthly blackened leaves behind. And I've specifically been told that it's dry leaves and undergrowth (such as moss) I shouldn't toss lit cigarettes into. |
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 22, 2014 14:33:44 GMT
Yes, you can start a fire with a cigarette by throwing it into or onto leaves or other dried vegetation*. Is it something that is always going to happen? No, as you noted it will depend on a lot of variables such as the amount of moisture in the material, amount of wind and whereabouts the ciggy lands - I'm guessing that you are more likely to see a fire if the ciggy ends up falling inside a pile rather than just resting on the top.
It is the same principle as starting a small fire in an overfilled ashtray, in that in my experience such fires are a result of pushing the ciggy into the pile of butts and leaving it. With ashtray fires/smoldering you don't expect it to happen often regardless of how full the ashtray is, but it does happen at some point.
As a ballpark figure let us assume that only one in a thousand discarded ciggies has the right conditions to start the material around it smoldering, and of those only one in 500 will have the right conditions to actually start a fire. At home even a heavy smoker is unlikely to end up with a smoldering ashtray more than three or four times in a year, and probably wouldn't see a full on fire for decades if at all.
However if you are looking at this in terms of a park or forest you are talking about, say, several hundred people smoking maybe two or three ciggies per day and dropping them. This means that odds are good that you'd get at least a couple of smoldering piles every day, and therefore a good chance of a fire being started at least once a year.
(*The tests MB have done with Gasoline over the years have shown that in itself it isn't actually flammable. Rather it is the vapors that are ignited when the fuel-air ratio is right. If the ratio is off it doesn't matter what ignition source you have, it isn't going to ignite. This also holds for other gasses, which MB have shown as well.)
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Post by the light works on Jun 22, 2014 14:36:18 GMT
on the Dead Indian fire in 1992, they had enough evidence remaining to identify the brand of cigarette. we also had a fatal fire a few years ago, in which the neighbors reported that the occupant of the home had multiple burn marks in his mattress before the fire; and they had even seen him put out mattress fires by pouring his beer on them.
for your environmental data; we have daytime temperatures in the low 80s, and contrary to all the rumors we spread; it typically stops raining for the summer in early July. this year is an unusually dry year - last week we only had a half inch of rain. and I live in the wet part of Oregon. inland, summer temperatures commonly hit 90 and in the high desert region (like where we have a wildfire right now) it can easily top 100.
the other side of it is, even if only 1 in 1000 cigarette ends is thrown into detritus that can catch fire, and 1 in 1000 that conditions are correct for a fire to start - we still have enough people throwing away lit cigarettes to start fires.
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Post by the light works on Jun 22, 2014 14:39:10 GMT
Yes, you can start a fire with a cigarette by throwing it into or onto leaves or other dried vegetation. Is it something that is always going to happen? No, as you noted it will depend on a lot of variables such as the amount of moisture in the material, amount of wind and whereabouts the ciggy lands - I'm guessing that you are more likely to see a fire if the ciggy ends up falling inside a pile rather than just resting on the top. It is the same principle as starting a small fire in an overfilled ashtray, in that in my experience such fires are a result of pushing the ciggy into the pile of butts and leaving it. With ashtray fires/smoldering you don't expect it to happen often regardless of how full the ashtray is, but it does happen at some point. As a ballpark figure let us assume that only one in a thousand discarded ciggies has the right conditions to start the material around it smoldering, and of those only one in 500 will have the right conditions to actually start a fire. At home even a heavy smoker is unlikely to end up with a smoldering ashtray more than three or four times in a year, and probably wouldn't see a full on fire for decades if at all. However if you are looking at this in terms of a park or forest you are talking about, say, several hundred people smoking maybe two or three ciggies per day and dropping them. This means that odds are good that you'd get at least a couple of smoldering piles every day, and therefore a good chance of a fire being started at least once a year. we had an "ashtray" fire a couple years ago - the "ashtray" was a gallon pail - and it was full. - all evidence was such that it was a "well, there's your problem" moment for the fire investigation team. |
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Post by GTCGreg on Jun 22, 2014 20:30:04 GMT
See, that's the problem. I've placed a lit cigarette - a whole one, not just the butt - in these different types of dried leaves and moss and stayed to watch what happens, hoping it would catch fire, but nothing happens. It just burns all the way to the end and extinguishes without leaving anything but ashes and sligthly blackened leaves behind. And I've specifically been told that it's dry leaves and undergrowth (such as moss) I shouldn't toss lit cigarettes into. A strong breeze may also be a factor. Try your experiment again only use a small fan or hair dryer to produce a strong breeze. This may cause the cigarette to burn faster and hotter resulting in setting the brush/leaves on fire. Many of these wildfires seem to erupt during windy conditions. |
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 22, 2014 20:35:24 GMT
See, that's the problem. I've placed a lit cigarette - a whole one, not just the butt - in these different types of dried leaves and moss and stayed to watch what happens, hoping it would catch fire, but nothing happens. It just burns all the way to the end and extinguishes without leaving anything but ashes and sligthly blackened leaves behind. And I've specifically been told that it's dry leaves and undergrowth (such as moss) I shouldn't toss lit cigarettes into. A strong breeze may also be a factor. Try your experiment again only use a small fan or hair dryer to produce a strong breeze. This may cause the cigarette to burn faster and hotter resulting in setting the brush/leaves on fire. Many of these wildfires seem to erupt during windy conditions. I've actually tried it with a compressor from different distances and while I've certainly found that it helps the fire spread once it's been started with a lighter or a match, it doesn't seem to do much in terms of helping the cigarette set anything on fire. |
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 23, 2014 6:50:55 GMT
Now here is a problem that I can apply loose maths too.
The actual match of combustible materials is a million to one chance you will find the right combination.
The actual combinations where a Cig butt LANDS when thrown is a Billion to one.
Therefore, the chances of one starting a fire are better odds than you get when it lands.
Therefore, when it lands "In the right place", its a certified absolute that it WILL start a fire.
Moss?... thats easy stuff.
Try Peat.
Peat, its soggy wet black mud like substance found all over the hills....
In its normal state.
But dried out, like it does in Summer, its combustible...
But it burns slowly.
A fire set in a hearth at home at night may burn not just all night, but for a couple of days.
And it has its own oxidisers....
Peat fires are scary, because there is known evidence they travel underground.
As a Peak Park Ranger, one of my main jobs was to spot hill fires.
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Post by the light works on Jun 23, 2014 13:43:43 GMT
Now here is a problem that I can apply loose maths too. The actual match of combustible materials is a million to one chance you will find the right combination. The actual combinations where a Cig butt LANDS when thrown is a Billion to one. Therefore, the chances of one starting a fire are better odds than you get when it lands. Therefore, when it lands "In the right place", its a certified absolute that it WILL start a fire. Moss?... thats easy stuff. Try Peat. Peat, its soggy wet black mud like substance found all over the hills.... In its normal state. But dried out, like it does in Summer, its combustible... But it burns slowly. A fire set in a hearth at home at night may burn not just all night, but for a couple of days. And it has its own oxidisers.... Peat fires are scary, because there is known evidence they travel underground. As a Peak Park Ranger, one of my main jobs was to spot hill fires. the elementary school I went to (year 1-6) had a small fire (less than 1 square foot of skirting was burned) it was later determined that it had been smoldering for about 2 days, and the kids who smelled the smoke ignored it because that was where the problem kids went to smoke. |
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 23, 2014 15:25:44 GMT
Now here is a problem that I can apply loose maths too. The actual match of combustible materials is a million to one chance you will find the right combination. The actual combinations where a Cig butt LANDS when thrown is a Billion to one. Therefore, the chances of one starting a fire are better odds than you get when it lands. Therefore, when it lands "In the right place", its a certified absolute that it WILL start a fire. Moss?... thats easy stuff. Try Peat. Peat, its soggy wet black mud like substance found all over the hills.... In its normal state. But dried out, like it does in Summer, its combustible... But it burns slowly. A fire set in a hearth at home at night may burn not just all night, but for a couple of days. And it has its own oxidisers.... Peat fires are scary, because there is known evidence they travel underground. As a Peak Park Ranger, one of my main jobs was to spot hill fires. In my garden I used to use peat as a compost and mulch, not now have gone peat free, but in Ireland they have Peat powered Electricity Generation Stations. |
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Post by craighudson on Jun 23, 2014 16:52:53 GMT
But the fact that peat is used for fuel doesn't mean it's a fire risk. Look at diesel.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 23, 2014 19:44:13 GMT
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 24, 2014 7:32:13 GMT
For some reason...
Usually at the heart of this is some twerp deciding its a good place for a Bar-b-que, and not making sure its out.
Peak district, you do not set fires at all.
ANY kind of fire is against the bylaws.
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Post by the light works on Jun 24, 2014 14:11:28 GMT
But the fact that peat is used for fuel doesn't mean it's a fire risk. Look at diesel. but the fact that it is a fire risk does. |
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Post by the light works on Jun 24, 2014 14:13:30 GMT
looks like it is a good thing it was still the wet season. |
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Post by the light works on Jun 24, 2014 14:18:51 GMT
for my part, I get called to a wildfire on my way home for dinner. someone - presumably kids, had set fire to a TV set in a bit of forest just back of an apartment complex, and also to an old cedar stump. had they not burned the TV, the smoke would have blended in to the surrounding fog well enough we didn't get called out for it, and it would have been able to get a good foothold, and become a forest fire. - and there's no way we could have protected the forest side of the apartment complex.
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 24, 2014 16:53:14 GMT
looks like it is a good thing it was still the wet season. Yes it was, bearing in mind the same area Borth was evacuated due to flooding the month before this fire. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-25593105 |
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Post by c64 on Jul 23, 2014 9:37:06 GMT
I've once emptied an ashtray into a garbage can. After an hour, the garbage can was on fire. Now I either empty the ash tray into the toilet or during winter when I have my fireplace running, I put the contents of the ash tray into the tin bucket for the fireplace ash.
When the tin bucket is full, I wait 24hr and then empty it into a garbage bag and put this into a safe place for a week until I put it into the garbage can for collection.
"Hot ash" can still ignite something after 24 hours!
I don't know how often I had emptied the ash tray into the garbage can before this incident, maybe several hundred times, but I am now very, very careful about such things!
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