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Post by silverdragon on Jun 24, 2014 7:51:10 GMT
Is it possible to navigate without maps.
This has been a discussion where I work that it is entirely possible to find an address without any form of map.... As long as you are prepared to ask.
My view is that I am not that worried about sticking my head out of the window and asking.... And usually I get good results. But some people refuse to stop and ask for directions.
I suggest this be done somewhere where gang violence and possibilities of getting mugged are not ripe, but heck, no one would stop and ask the gang of lightly armed kids on a street corner would they?...
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 24, 2014 9:23:00 GMT
I assume you mean navigating around and area that you don't know?
Interesting idea, but I think it needs to be re-worded to make it more of a myth/story than just a question.
Maybe something along the lines that it can be faster to navigate an unknown area (say a city or smallish town) by stopping and asking for directions than it would be to stop and check a map.
Or
Which is faster? Using GPS, a map or stopping and asking for directions?
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Post by the light works on Jun 24, 2014 14:43:58 GMT
I think the GPS would count as cheating for this exercise, since it is the equivalent of having read the map in advance.
but yes, put two testers an equivalent route away from a common destination, and have one rely on a map and the other rely on directions from strangers - and see who gets there first.
and then for a "ramp it up" you try to reach an address with no help from directions OR a map. - and plot the course with a GPS.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 24, 2014 18:05:54 GMT
GPS is only as good as the information it is loaded with, and as more than a few cases have shown bad information can result in everything from a GPS trying to send 18 wheeler trucks down streets they can't physically fit in, to ending up in a lake.
In any case, even if we assume that the GPS is up to date it could act as the control. It would also mean three different navigation types...one for each of the build team.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 24, 2014 19:24:44 GMT
I check google street view on all routes. That way I can recognise where I want to get..... That and I have maps that only show roads where "18 wheelers" can fit down.....
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Post by memeengine on Jun 24, 2014 19:58:45 GMT
GPS is only as good as the information it is loaded with. ...and exactly the same can be said for printed maps and people. I've seen people trying to drive around with maps that are decades out of date. Even more modern ones struggle to keep up with new builds and changes in traffic management schemes. One of the problems with getting directions from people is the driver's capacity to remember the instructions they're given. For some reason, I seem to get stopped regularly and asked for directions. If it's a simple one like "half a mile down, take a left and then the first right" there's no problem. However, when the instructions are more complex, you can usually see in the driver's face that they've lost track after the fourth or fifth junction (and they'll just nod and thank you rather than confirming that they've understood). Add to that the chance the person you ask (a) is just as lost as you, which is why they're wandering the streets or (b) can't tell their left from their right with any degree of reliability or (c) is happy to mis-direct you, safe in the knowledge that you'll be miles away before you realise and you might well find that asking people isn't a great way to get about.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 24, 2014 20:05:41 GMT
In this colourful country that I live in, that is a genuine local quote from one area.... It made me think hard about "Did they really just say that?.."
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Post by ironhold on Jun 24, 2014 20:13:59 GMT
I work as a courier for the local newspaper in addition to my assorted other duties.
The town I live in was laid out piecemeal by numerous city planners over it's 120+ year history, and so finding individual streets can be a chore; matters are especially problematic as we have streets that "disappear", meaning that they'll run for a length, stop for some reason, and then start up again elsewhere. Additionally, some roads have two or three different names.
However:
*The numbered streets (1st Street, 2nd Street, 3rd Street, et cetra) are laid out in a definite pattern. Odd numbers are to the west of Main Street, while even numbers are to the east of Main Street. Main Street and the number streets all run north / south.
*The letter streets, meanwhile, run east / west.
*The dividing line for north / south is the BNSF rail line that cuts through town; for example, South 1st Street becomes North 1st Street once you cross the tracks. The dividing line for east / west, meanwhile, is 1st Street. The dividing lines are treated as zeroes as far as the addresses go, and the numbers go up the further away you get from them.
*Several neighborhoods are laid out on a rough grid-plat system, with roughly consistent address numbers from block to block and evens being on the same side of each street. For example, the 1000s block of almost any given odd-numbered number street lies between Veterans Avenue and Highway Avenue.
*US Highway 190 and the BNSF line roughly run east / west, while Farm-to-Market Road 116 runs north / south. It's entirely possible to get a rough bearing on where you are just by noting your location in regards to one of the three.
Give me an address, and if it's a section of town that I'm familiar with there's a good chance that I can get you there without a map. I might consult a compass in order to determine which side of the street if the house numbers aren't visible, but that's about it.
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Post by memeengine on Jun 24, 2014 20:41:32 GMT
Give me an address, and if it's a section of town that I'm familiar with there's a good chance that I can get you there without a map. But in that case, your local knowledge means that you're effectively carrying a map around in your head. You also have an advantage in that your town's grid system allows you to construct a mental map fairly easily. The town I live in was laid out piecemeal by the Romans, Saxons, Normans, the occasional plague, a large fire, the whims of the monarchy, German bombs and, more recently, by Boris Johnson, over it's 2000+ year history. I can navigate across it fairly well without reference to a physical map but that's because, thanks to living here for most of my life, now I've got the relationships between places mapped out in my mind. For a visitor, it's a nightmare because very few of the roads run straight and plenty of them just stop at a dead end. So getting from A to B is rarely a case of two blocks over and three blocks up.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 24, 2014 20:45:35 GMT
For this to work, I think the below is the basic ask....
I do not know london, above what everyone else knows from say television. I do, however, know which direction to set off in, and which main road will get me there. I believe if you sent me to find an address, as long as it is a full postal address, I should be able to find it without any map.
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Post by the light works on Jun 24, 2014 23:39:02 GMT
I check google street view on all routes. That way I can recognise where I want to get..... That and I have maps that only show roads where "18 wheelers" can fit down..... the highway I live on is forbidden to vehicles with more than 30' between the axles. - yet one particular trucking company insisted on sending its drivers down the road because their route software thought it was the shorter route to where they were going. (hint: the distance to that destination from my house is the same whether I go via my highway, or whether I backtrack to the main road and take that. - I know because I've driven both routes, and calculated by my speedometer.) /tangent
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Post by the light works on Jun 24, 2014 23:45:40 GMT
I have the advantage of living in a young city. inside city limits, it is divided into quadrants: NW, NE, SE, SW. east-west streets are numbered, starting from the D-river. north south streets, except Hwy 101, are named alphabetically starting with the westernmost one. we do have streets that get interrupted, and streets in rural areas that have similar names - and that gets confusing. but if you're at, say, NE 14th and Port, and you want to get to NE 5th and Jetty, you can calculate the general direction you want to go.
outside the city, the addresses generally are 1000 times the mile marker on the road. (for example, if you are looking for 6550 Salmon river Hwy, you know you want to be halfway between milepost 6 and 7) - the bad thing is they decided they wanted the highways to have names - so you need to know that Salmon river Highway is highway 18. - because the highway department numbers their roads.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 25, 2014 0:20:29 GMT
For this to work, I think the below is the basic ask.... I do not know london, above what everyone else knows from say television. I do, however, know which direction to set off in, and which main road will get me there. I believe if you sent me to find an address, as long as it is a full postal address, I should be able to find it without any map. From what I can tell though, you are a professional driver. Meaning that you probably have a fairly decent idea as to the major routes in the UK and at least a general idea as to where you need to go to get to the general area of any given address in the UK. You would, for example, not need to ask for directions to get to London even if you had never actually driven there. Now I am (or rather was not) a 'professional' driver, and as such would have difficulty knowing what route to take beyond 'head south'. I'd find the place, but whatever route I took would certainly not be the fastest. Heck, I had enough trouble driving to visit relatives in the North East of England even though I knew the general route. (I got stuck in a six mile tailback around Leeds on the way there, then a ten mile tailback on the A-19 on the way back...because naturally the ideal time of year to close off twenty miles of road for road works* is during the August bank holiday weekend) The idea that interests me is in testing to see what technique works best when you don't have any type of knowledge of the area, or how to get there. This is a much more likely scenario in the US simply because of the size of the country - sure I would imagine that a fair number of US drivers would probably have a fairly good idea as to the general location of some of the major cities, or failing that at least have some idea where the State in question was and which direction to go in. But States are large places and beyond the major cities you would have serious difficulty trying to find a specific address without some type of map or at least directions. In this case asking for directions probably isn't going to be any help, as unless you happen to already be in the local area chances are good that anyone you ask isn't going to have heard of the place or really know how to get there. To me this does seem to have some potential. As I noted there are three techniques, which would allow them to either test each individually with a single member of the build team. Or they could do the first two with Adam and Jamie using different techniques, then use the GPS afterwards (which by its nature isn't going to be affected by them having driven the route before). This is also something that should be fairly quick and simple to test - although it would certainly require them to go outside SF and possibly California so they are in an area they have no knowledge of. Figure it would take three days for the build team, and four for Adam and Jamie; One day to get to the starting location. One day for the build team to test with Adam and Jamie running the route a second time on day three. Then a day to get back home. (*British Translation; Road works; The practice of parking a wheelbarrow on the hard shoulder, then placing cones for ten miles in each direction so they block off half the lanes**. Actual humans are not allowed to set foot within this area while there are cars on any part of the road.) (**Exception; If the road has thirty foot deep hole in it, then the cones are placed at a distance carefully calculated on the official speed limit for that road to make sure that drivers should start braking at the exact second they see the cones. Metal warning signs may be placed at the edge of the hole, so that drivers have something to read while waiting to be pulled out.)
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2014 1:37:21 GMT
Us Road Work (note it is a verb, not a noun) consists of blocking one or more lanes with cones, and then providing all accesses to a group of lollipop ladies (not gender specific) charged with making sure nobody gets through the area without delay; then assign sufficient crew to prevent the entire supply of shovels from falling over.
I once saw a foreman who was an overachiever: he was leaning on two shovels.
but to get back on topic - I did most of my navigating during my time in the Los Angeles area with only minimal map reading (on account of a detailed Los Angeles map costs about $30.00)
on the subject of giving directions, the worst case scenario was a set of directions the girlfriend I like to badmouth gave - specifying that I was to turn right - and there was no other option given except that I must turn RIGHT on that street. - so after making the demanded right turn, I determined I was going in exactly the wrong direction, and had to make a U-turn so I was going west on that street - which would have been a right turn if I had been coming from the direction of the apartment she was living in. however, I had been downtown doing other things and was coming from the opposite direction - which was why I had asked whether I was to turn west or east. (when I give directions, my first direction usually involves a compass direction, in memory of that idiocy.)
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 25, 2014 7:47:34 GMT
Either I aint dropping enough hints, or your not reading enough of my posts?... Anyone who has driven "South" knows that of you follow the motorways, sooner or later, you will see a sign for London... "All roads lead to Rome.." In England, most long distance roads start from london, so even the faintest clue about driving and how our roads work, if you cant find london, hand in your licence?... Where to start asking. I would say that if you are not allowed to start asking at any point, the test is invalid, and any good driver would want to know where they are going before they start, so they should be allowed to ask before they even get in the vehicle. As long as the person they ask doesnt force a map into their face, the test is still valid. This test is about can you navigate without having a map to start with... Doesnt mean you cant ask someone else to look for you. I suppose its all about can you follow directions.?..
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 25, 2014 7:52:34 GMT
Uon the subject of giving directions, the worst case scenario was a set of directions the girlfriend I like to badmouth gave Worst set of directions, someone asked me to take them to a certain shop. I ask Where is it?.. the reply, Dont you know?... If I knew, I wouldnt be asking.
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2014 14:26:39 GMT
Either I aint dropping enough hints, or your not reading enough of my posts?... Anyone who has driven "South" knows that of you follow the motorways, sooner or later, you will see a sign for London... "All roads lead to Rome.." In England, most long distance roads start from london, so even the faintest clue about driving and how our roads work, if you cant find london, hand in your licence?... Where to start asking. I would say that if you are not allowed to start asking at any point, the test is invalid, and any good driver would want to know where they are going before they start, so they should be allowed to ask before they even get in the vehicle. As long as the person they ask doesnt force a map into their face, the test is still valid. This test is about can you navigate without having a map to start with... Doesnt mean you cant ask someone else to look for you. I suppose its all about can you follow directions.?.. I would say it should be allowed to say "I have been challenged to get to a place without a map" in order to prevent "get a map, idiot" sorts of responses.
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Post by ironhold on Jun 25, 2014 15:13:40 GMT
Here's how a hypothetical test could work.
Whoever the testers are will be taken to a location that they are not familiar with. They will be allowed a basic cell phone (not a smart phone), a limited amount of cash, and certain essentials; by this I'm thinking things like a first aid kid, a spare tire & tire jack, and something to eat & drink. They might maybe have a compass (you can get small compasses that attach to your watch band), but that's about it.
Their mission will be to get from A to B without consulting a map. They can speak with locals, but they can't actually look at an image or anything.
Three tests with each method will be performed.
The first test would involve a relatively small piece of terrain, such as a college campus.
The second test would involve a larger piece of terrain, such as going from the campus to the other end of town (or vice versa).
The third test would be "long distance" driving, such as going from the college to a town an hour or so out.
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Post by the light works on Jun 25, 2014 15:18:51 GMT
Here's how a hypothetical test could work. Whoever the testers are will be taken to a location that they are not familiar with. They will be allowed a basic cell phone (not a smart phone), a limited amount of cash, and certain essentials; by this I'm thinking things like a first aid kid, a spare tire & tire jack, and something to eat & drink. They might maybe have a compass (you can get small compasses that attach to your watch band), but that's about it. Their mission will be to get from A to B without consulting a map. They can speak with locals, but they can't actually look at an image or anything. Three tests with each method will be performed. The first test would involve a relatively small piece of terrain, such as a college campus. The second test would involve a larger piece of terrain, such as going from the campus to the other end of town (or vice versa). The third test would be "long distance" driving, such as going from the college to a town an hour or so out. just use a car with a built in compass. (obviously not good for walking a college campus)
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Post by ironhold on Jun 25, 2014 15:33:00 GMT
I figure that we should start with something "small" like a college campus and go from there because it'd test the validity of each method (map, GPS, asking around) over a variety of scenarios.
I figure that a decent-sized college campus should be large enough to where a person - especially someone who was new - legitimately would need assistance navigating around the first few times they were on site, but wouldn't be so large that the team would be swamped. In this sense, the team could play the role of a new college student or a relative come to visit a student.
The second test would represent, say, the daily commute of a person who lived off-campus. With your average college town, it's only reasonable to think that a person who hails from that town would prefer to stay with family or friends so as to save on the cost of room & board; the trade-off, however, is that they have to get from A to B.
The third test would represent, perhaps, someone going to visit a relative who lives at a somewhat distant college or a college student going to stay with "nearby" family during a break. This isn't a trip that a person might make very often (say, once a month at most) and so it's reasonable that they wouldn't originally have the route memorized.
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