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Post by OziRiS on Jun 28, 2014 20:04:06 GMT
Not to be a stick in the mud here, but is there really anything to test? Assuming that you know how to read a map, you know where you are on the map (or are able to figure it out) and you can find the place that you need to go to on the map, if you're any kind of reasonable, you're going to plot out your route before you even get in the car. If you don't start looking at the map before you're actually on the road, you're not only an idiot, you're dangerous to the people around you, because you're constantly distracted by looking at the map while driving. Depending on how long and complex the route is, you may have to set waypoints where you stop and look at the map again to make sure you're on the right track, but that's about it. When asking for directions, you typically meet one or more of these types: 1. People who don't know and admit it, leaving you to find someone who does. 2. People who don't know, but think they do and give you wrong directions. 3. People who know, but give you bad or confusing directions that you don't understand, so you'll have to ask someone else anyway. 4. People who know, but give you wrong directions, so you end up wasting time going in the wrong direction. 5. People who know the area so well that they reference things that you would've had to live in the area for 50 years to know about and thus are no help at all ("Go down to the Johnson farm, make a right turn toward the old paper mill, circle halfway around the gopher forest and across the dried up creek and it's right there next to that place that used to be a music store. If you reach Guadalajara, Mexico, you've gone too far. *Snicker*" 6. People who know and are actually capable of giving directions you can work with. There's also the added problem with asking for directions without knowing anything about the area you're in, that if it's a particularly long or complex route you still have to ask people how to get to that specific destination. If you have a map and can see from it that you need to pass through three towns on the way to your destination, then you can start by setting the first town as a waypoint, stop there and consult the map again. But you only know about the three towns in between because you had the map to begin with. When asking for directions, since you don't know what's in between you and your destination you can't set waypoints that you can ask for directions to and then find someone there to ask for directions to the next waypoint. You have to ask for and remember the entire route. And that's only if you're lucky enough to find someone who knows the entire route to begin with. Is there really any doubt the map will be more helpful? Why do you think they were even invented in the first place? well, that's what they asked to test, now, isn't it? but you make a good point about doing the navigation with the map in advance - and that would have to be part of the test: they get their destination when they get to the start point, and any time spent planning the route is included in the test time. It wouldn't matter. You could do this test a thousand times and it would always come down to how fast the one asking for directions could find someone who knows the way and how accurately that person could give directions. That's a factor that not only could, but probably would change every time you redid the test, meaning that you might never be able to get an accurate, definitive result.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 28, 2014 21:57:53 GMT
I think that stopping and asking for directions should really be 'driving by the seat of your pants'. By which I mean that you rely on signs and a general idea as to the direction you need to head in to get to the general area of an address and take things from there. (Aside from anything else it is rather unlikely that anyone you ask is going to know an address 100+ miles away.)
This is a not unreasonable scenario - Cab drivers (at least near me) tend to use their local knowledge to drive to the general area of an address and then ask the passenger for directions from there. I've only ever seen a cab driver use a map once, when they had been booked to drive to an address that was just outside the local area. And even in this case they were using the map to find out what was near that address, not writing down specific directions for themselves but playing things by ear once they were in the area.
Heck, even those drivers I know who have a GPS system tend to use it the same way - as in they use it for directions to the general area and then ask the passenger for more specific directions.
There is also the common scenario where a business man* is driving around in a hire car (no GPS) and trying to find a location. Often they don't have maps, or the address they are looking for isn't on that map for some reason**.
More than once I've managed to successfully find my way to places I've never been simply by having a basic idea as to which direction it happens to be in, and/or way-points along the way. For example when I was driving to visit relatives in the North East I just followed the signs for Leeds, then the signs for the A19 to get to the general area. Then last of all used what I could remember of the area to find the house - worryingly this involved looking for the pub that was around the corner. Worrying because the last time I'd been there I was ten.
I think that one question that could be asked is if we are becoming too dependent on technology, rather than taking a few minutes to stop, think and do some work? Sure, GPS is a very useful tool and for delivery drivers is a godsend. But for the average car owner is it really all that important, or much of an improvement over just looking at a map for a few minutes - which seems to be how long it takes to program a GPS...or rather punch in the address several times, swear at the machine and get it to accept the address you wanted. Hitting the device is optional, and usually restricted to those that include the 'helpful' ability to understand everything you say until you ask it to do anything***.
(*I say 'man' because I have yet to be stopped and asked directions by a businesswoman. I'll be charitable and assume that women are more prepared than the men and get or write down directions before setting off)
(**In the case of a rather notorious sailor in UK waters this might have had something to do with trying to navigate his way around the UK coastline using a road map. More usually this is because an address isn't on the map you'd think it would be. For example one cab driver I knew worked in the South Manchester area, explained that he used to carry two A-Z's (street maps). One was for Greater Manchester and the other was for Cheshire. The reason was that there were places less than ten miles from Manchester that didn't appear on the Manchester map even though the address clearly and officially stated that they were in Greater Manchester. In one case he noted that at least small town had been cut in two, with half of it appearing on the Manchester map and the other half appearing on the Cheshire map.)
(***Making voice programmable GPS systems much the same as your average teenager)
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Post by ironhold on Jun 28, 2014 23:23:16 GMT
As for streets not being on maps -
This is something that I've run into on multiple occasions.
For example, when I first started delivering papers in 2008, a major housing development was being built on the northern part of town. Even the newest maps available at the time only had half of the development plotted out, as progress was going so fast that the cartographers couldn't keep up. (This is the same development, mind you, where nobody thought to do a soil analysis and so at least seven houses now have structural problems so bad that they're in danger of being condemned.)
Another issue is that there are a number of streets which are listed as being a part of the city but are so far removed from the city proper that any map with a large enough scale to show them in their actual place (as opposed to putting them in a sidebar) cannot show the smaller roads in town (like the numerous cul-de-sacs that exist in places).
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 29, 2014 0:51:28 GMT
I think that stopping and asking for directions should really be 'driving by the seat of your pants'. By which I mean that you rely on signs and a general idea as to the direction you need to head in to get to the general area of an address and take things from there. (Aside from anything else it is rather unlikely that anyone you ask is going to know an address 100+ miles away.) This is a not unreasonable scenario - Cab drivers (at least near me) tend to use their local knowledge to drive to the general area of an address and then ask the passenger for directions from there. I've only ever seen a cab driver use a map once, when they had been booked to drive to an address that was just outside the local area. And even in this case they were using the map to find out what was near that address, not writing down specific directions for themselves but playing things by ear once they were in the area. Heck, even those drivers I know who have a GPS system tend to use it the same way - as in they use it for directions to the general area and then ask the passenger for more specific directions. There is also the common scenario where a business man* is driving around in a hire car (no GPS) and trying to find a location. Often they don't have maps, or the address they are looking for isn't on that map for some reason**. More than once I've managed to successfully find my way to places I've never been simply by having a basic idea as to which direction it happens to be in, and/or way-points along the way. For example when I was driving to visit relatives in the North East I just followed the signs for Leeds, then the signs for the A19 to get to the general area. Then last of all used what I could remember of the area to find the house - worryingly this involved looking for the pub that was around the corner. Worrying because the last time I'd been there I was ten. I think that one question that could be asked is if we are becoming too dependent on technology, rather than taking a few minutes to stop, think and do some work? Sure, GPS is a very useful tool and for delivery drivers is a godsend. But for the average car owner is it really all that important, or much of an improvement over just looking at a map for a few minutes - which seems to be how long it takes to program a GPS...or rather punch in the address several times, swear at the machine and get it to accept the address you wanted. Hitting the device is optional, and usually restricted to those that include the 'helpful' ability to understand everything you say until you ask it to do anything***. (*I say 'man' because I have yet to be stopped and asked directions by a businesswoman. I'll be charitable and assume that women are more prepared than the men and get or write down directions before setting off) (**In the case of a rather notorious sailor in UK waters this might have had something to do with trying to navigate his way around the UK coastline using a road map. More usually this is because an address isn't on the map you'd think it would be. For example one cab driver I knew worked in the South Manchester area, explained that he used to carry two A-Z's (street maps). One was for Greater Manchester and the other was for Cheshire. The reason was that there were places less than ten miles from Manchester that didn't appear on the Manchester map even though the address clearly and officially stated that they were in Greater Manchester. In one case he noted that at least small town had been cut in two, with half of it appearing on the Manchester map and the other half appearing on the Cheshire map.) (***Making voice programmable GPS systems much the same as your average teenager) Here's a thought: Normally when we ask for directions and get confusing or wrong directions, we blame it on the person we asked. What if, instead of hoping to come across someone who's really good at giving directions, we look for ways to become better at asking for them? I've been mulling this over since my last post about maps and waypoints. There must be a way to ask for directions that puts the person you're asking in a better position to actually give you a helpful answer. The effects of different approaches to this could actually be testable. We've already established from the talk about maps that trying to plan a complex route and remembering all of it is diffcult and that a good way of getting over that difficulty could be to set waypoints. Could you translate that into a more effective way of asking for directions that give you more reliable answers? The classic way is to ask for the specific adress or at least the specific street, but is that a good tactic? Is there a better one?
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Post by the light works on Jun 29, 2014 1:24:02 GMT
the more I think about it, the more I think this is perfect for the build team - you have Grant with the maps, Kari asking directions, and Tory just plowing through on his own.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 29, 2014 1:32:16 GMT
I was thinking in terms of the build team too, which is one of two arguments for keeping the "directions" part of the myth. The other being the potential for humour if they get lost.
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Post by the light works on Jun 29, 2014 1:58:50 GMT
I was thinking in terms of the build team too, which is one of two arguments for keeping the "directions" part of the myth. The other being the potential for humour if they get lost. right, plus the fun of hearing how the people give the directions.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 29, 2014 7:58:44 GMT
There is something I need to ask. In England, we have a certain majority of the male population who drive who have a little screw loose in their direction finder.... How this works is they absolutely refuse to admit they are lost.
"I know where I am, I am here, I just dont know where here is" "I am directionally challenged" "I will remember where I am in a moment, its been a few years"
And my Favourite,
"I wish they would stop moving the roads about"... This was on an old road known to have been put down originally in Roman times?....
Is it just England?...
Or are we amongst fools whojust havnt got a pot where they are and are steadfastly refusing to ask for directions?....
I think we ought to nominate more than one of them to partake of the test and see how far they get, and more importantly, in which direction.
From last week, the argument that started this, was a driver who "Found" the M6 in Birmingham (UK) and travelled to Bristol before he realised that this isnt the right way for Scotland......
Yes, he had done a four-hour detour (By the time he got back to Birmingham) in the WRONG direction. His excuse is its difficult enough to navigate on a Motorway. Our response was that of you dont notice you are following signs for M6 "SOUTH", and london, which you just do not get on the "NORTH" bound carriageway, they you are not supposed to be driving. He asked if none of us had ever taken the wrong road... Yes, but we sure as hell got off at the next junction, or got turned around ASAP. Not a couple of hours later?....
Reason I want this thread to be taken seriously?... I have serious doubts that some of us do not know the way out of our own road without a map. "We Live Amongst Them"...
Its NOT a myth, I do believe some people can not find their way without someone else navigating for them. I also believe some people have no interest at all in long distance navigation, and long distance is more than 20 mins away by car. Its also 20 mins away by foot. If you cant walk their by foot in 20 mins, they wont walk. If they cant park outside the door, they wont go there, and have no interest at all.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 29, 2014 9:56:50 GMT
There is something I need to ask. In England, we have a certain majority of the male population who drive who have a little screw loose in their direction finder.... How this works is they absolutely refuse to admit they are lost. "I know where I am, I am here, I just dont know where here is" "I am directionally challenged" "I will remember where I am in a moment, its been a few years" And my Favourite, "I wish they would stop moving the roads about"... This was on an old road known to have been put down originally in Roman times?.... Is it just England?... Or are we amongst fools whojust havnt got a pot where they are and are steadfastly refusing to ask for directions?.... I think we ought to nominate more than one of them to partake of the test and see how far they get, and more importantly, in which direction. From last week, the argument that started this, was a driver who "Found" the M6 in Birmingham (UK) and travelled to Bristol before he realised that this isnt the right way for Scotland...... Yes, he had done a four-hour detour (By the time he got back to Birmingham) in the WRONG direction. His excuse is its difficult enough to navigate on a Motorway. Our response was that of you dont notice you are following signs for M6 "SOUTH", and london, which you just do not get on the "NORTH" bound carriageway, they you are not supposed to be driving. He asked if none of us had ever taken the wrong road... Yes, but we sure as hell got off at the next junction, or got turned around ASAP. Not a couple of hours later?.... Reason I want this thread to be taken seriously?... I have serious doubts that some of us do not know the way out of our own road without a map. "We Live Amongst Them"... Its NOT a myth, I do believe some people can not find their way without someone else navigating for them. I also believe some people have no interest at all in long distance navigation, and long distance is more than 20 mins away by car. Its also 20 mins away by foot. If you cant walk their by foot in 20 mins, they wont walk. If they cant park outside the door, they wont go there, and have no interest at all. And THAT'S one of the largest problems I see with testing whether asking for directions is faster/better than anything else. To get someone to stop and ask for directions, they have to both realize and admit they're lost in the first place. How quickly someone will do that will vary from person to person, skewing any results you might come up with other than "it's faster for me to do this. Also, the precision of the directions you're given will vary depending on who you ask. Some people are just perpetually lost and in denial about it. My brother for instance. He's the greatest person I've ever known and I love him dearly, but put the guy in a phone booth and spin him 180 degrees and he won't know which way is up or how to find his own nose. He THINKS he knows and if you ask him for directions, he'll gladly provide you with some. They'll be wrong, but he won't know that and if you're sufficiently lost yourself, neither will you. That's why I think we can't compare asking directions to having a map and should instead be looking at the most efficient way of asking for directions when you have no other option. How to best ensure that the question you ask will result in a somewhat reliable answer you can work with, like asking for easily recognizable waypoints instead of asking for the entire route in one go.
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Post by silverdragon on Jun 29, 2014 10:25:04 GMT
So I get what you are saying... We will produce Various results along the "Confirmed" route that you can get somewhere without a map, its just the varying degree as to how some people get the right result. And failure is an option.... some people will not get there in a certain time frame. There has to be a time limit, otherwise, well, lets just say I do actually know someone who would spend all day dong a 10 mile journey if she didnt have someone to tell her where to go?... And its the same trip she has already done many times, she just "Forgets" where she has to turn.....
As for efficiency of asking directions, I do know a driver who got lost in Stratford...In Avon....
Home of Shakespeare.....
Unlucky.
After many failed attempts to ask for directions and getting various stages of "Gee, I just dont know, I am a visiting from America", he worked out that several coaches has recently unloaded tourists and he was surrounded.
The shops were too busy selling souvenirs, and the one police officer he saw was far too busy having his photo taken with a stream of tourists....
Half an hour to find someone who spoke reasonable English and had a fair idea where they were looking for....
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Post by memeengine on Jun 29, 2014 10:51:47 GMT
I think it's time to start on some definitions; What do we mean by "navigation" and, more importantly for the test, how do we define and measure good navigation?
As far as I'm concerned, navigation is the process of taking instructions (whether from a person, a map or a device), converting those instructions into actions and arriving at the intended destination. Good navigation would involve a minimum of deviation from the instructed route, poor navigation would involve lots of route corrections.
Let's consider a simple bit of navigation, a simple 2-dimensional maze (where the walls are high enough that you cannot see/climb over them).
If we hand people a map of the maze (complete with the shortest route to the centre marked) as they enter it then we're testing if they can translate the map's instructions into actions accurately. If they can, then it's an example of good navigation. If they can't, then it's poor navigation. In either case, it's as much a test of the person as the method - some people simply don't "get" maps.
Lets take the same maze but this time people are given verbal instructions to reach the centre as they enter the maze. Again if they can translate the instructions into actions accurately, it's good navigation. If they get lost, it's poor navigation. In either of these cases, it's as much a test of memory as a test of navigation.
Ok, same maze but the people are given a device that tells them at each junction which way to turn. Unless the person cannot tell their left from right, they're going to get the centre easily. Of course, in this example we're really testing the accuracy of the device rather than the person.
Finally, let's consider another method. People enter the maze and simply branch/turn left at each junction they come to. In the best case, the first branch takes them straight to the centre. In the worst case, they visit every point in the maze (once) before arriving at the centre. Even in the worst case, they might still arrive faster than a poor navigator using one of the previous methods because they should not revisit any location. However, I wouldn't consider this last method as "navigation", it's simply a brute force solution.
With all of these methods of getting to the centre of the maze, simply measuring the time taken to get to the centre would not be a accurate method of determining the best navigation. Some people might run, some might walk, some might even stop and consider. The runners might make mistakes but still be fast enough to finish ahead of the walkers who made no mistakes.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 29, 2014 10:58:02 GMT
@ Silverdragon:
Like you said, anywhere outside a 20 min. drive or walk is likely to be less familiar to people than the immediate vecinity of their own home. So, say we're testing this like it's already been suggested, by dropping the crew off in an unfamiliar town and telling them they have to get to another unfamiliar place about 30 miles away and the only help they have is their own sense of direction, an address and the locals to ask for directions. At no point can any local show you or draw you any kind of physical map.
One person must only ask for directions to that specific address and work with the answers he/she gets.
The other can ask for directions in any way he/she feels is most efficient.
I have a strong feeling that the most efficient way would be to
1. Find someone who knows exactly where he/she is at the current moment and at least know the general direction of the place you're going to. 2. Ask for the simplest possible directions to a known and easily recognizable landmark no more than a 20 min. walk from where you are and in the direction of your destination. 3. Go to that landmark and repeat the process 4. Keep doing this until you're at your destination.
The logic behind this is that most locals will know of towns and general parts of the city that's further away than the 20 min. walk, but odds are they won't know street names of that town/part of the city. They WILL, however know easily recognizable landmarks in their own immediate community. As you move, the locals are now "local" in a different part of town and will know landmarks a little closer to your destination. Keep moving in chunks like that and the odds of you being given accurate directions every time are much higher than if you ask for directions for something that's 30 miles away in the first go.
For instance: You land in JFK International Airport in Queens, New York and need to get to an address in the Bronx (I checked it in Google Earth - it's about 15 miles in a straight line). The odds of someone in Queens knowing that exact street and house in the Bronx are probably fairly small, but the odds of someone knowing the general direction of the Bronx and being able to give accurate directions to a landmark no more than a 20 min. walk away in that direction are much higher.
You'd have to stop more often, but the odds of people giving you accurate directions should increase, the directions should be easier to follow, since they represent a shorter distance and the end product (if my hypothesis is correct) should be lower odds of you making a wrong turn somewhere and getting completely lost.
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Post by Cybermortis on Jun 29, 2014 12:23:44 GMT
In this case;
Navigation is being able to find your way from one location to another by using external guides - a map, GPS or signs and directions from people you stop and ask.
Good navigation is simply being able to find your way to the destination in a reasonable amount of time - basically you can work out the distance on the road, assume you are driving at or slightly below the speed limits on those roads and trying to factor in delays caused by traffic.
Here we would want to compare the travel times for all three techniques against each other, but we can add in a fourth technique as a base - using route planners. Plan the route out on a couple of such programs to work out the average travel time in ideal conditions, and compare to the actual travel times for each technique.
Depending on the distance they are required to travel, we should also factor in rest periods. Maybe give them a set amount of time during the trip where they can stop and rest (and refuel if needed) while the clock is paused.
A lot would depend in what MB considered reasonable expenditure (in both time and money) for this and therefore how far they were willing to go for testing. If they are due to go to, say, New Mexico to do some tests down there for a few days it might be practical to extend that stay a day or two to test this. (They'd have to hire cars and motel rooms anyway, and extra day or two isn't really going to make much difference at this point). Heck, if they are being flown to New Mexico they could always have the test being trying to drive back to SF...the costs of the test being at least partly offset by not having to pay for return airfare. More reasonably we should start with the assumption that their schedule will have them in SF or within a days travel of the city at the point they want to test this. As such we should go with the 'quick and cheap' options, rather than assuming they will want to or be able to jet off to another city.
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Post by memeengine on Jun 29, 2014 13:26:29 GMT
Good navigation is simply being able to find your way to the destination in a reasonable amount of time - basically you can work out the distance on the road, assume you are driving at or slightly below the speed limits on those roads and trying to factor in delays caused by traffic. Here we would want to compare the travel times for all three techniques against each other, but we can add in a fourth technique as a base - using route planners. Plan the route out on a couple of such programs to work out the average travel time in ideal conditions, and compare to the actual travel times for each technique. I still don't think that travel time alone is an accurate measure of navigation skill. In the real world on real roads with real traffic, it's often the case that the fastest route from A to B is not necessarily the shortest route or the most obvious or the most economical. If you and I both set off at the same time, we faultlessly follow our intended routes and you arrive first because your chosen route is faster, does that mean your navigation is better? If you travelled miles further and spent more on fuel, is it still better? If they were testing this, what level of difference in times would be significant? Variations in local traffic conditions could easily cause a 5-10 minute difference to travel times even if everyone took the optimal route and traffic was flowing normally. After all, we've all been in the situation where the person in front seems to be waiting for a personal invitation before they'll pull out at a junction. Similarly, there are roads where if you time it right you can get green light after green, time it wrong and you're stuck at red after red. So if you arrive five minutes before me, is it due to better navigation, better luck with the traffic or simply a more aggressive driving style?
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Post by the light works on Jun 29, 2014 14:16:39 GMT
I think the only good metric is the number of wrong turns taken. - although if they want to get fancy, they can have a follow up run by having a local drive the same general route. (I.E. if they tested driving from the San Francisco airport to the M5 facility, they would have someone who is familiar with the route drive it, as a control time (possibly even several trips with the average time logged to account for traffic variances.))
as for testing how to best ask for directions; that's a good idea, but it doesn't establish whether a map is better than asking directions.
and finally, for those incapable of navigating, I have two worst case examples: first, the guy who asked how to get to Highway 101 from the gas station. (gas station address: 2320 NE Hwy 101) Second, the guy (admittedly drunk) who quite literally got lost inside a porta-potty.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 29, 2014 15:29:18 GMT
as for testing how to best ask for directions; that's a good idea, but it doesn't establish whether a map is better than asking directions. In my mind, there's no question it is. Why else would anyone ever have felt a need to make a map of anything? An accurate map and the ability to read it and plan your route will always (at least to me) be preferable to relying on the momory and explanatory abilities of a complete stranger.
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Post by the light works on Jun 29, 2014 15:42:13 GMT
as for testing how to best ask for directions; that's a good idea, but it doesn't establish whether a map is better than asking directions. In my mind, there's no question it is. Why else would anyone ever have felt a need to make a map of anything? An accurate map and the ability to read it and plan your route will always (at least to me) be preferable to relying on the momory and explanatory abilities of a complete stranger. and what is a map but the memory and explanatory abilities of a complete stranger? I, too, tend to favor maps, but at the same time, if you can find the right local, you can get much more focused information. for example, a map would not have told me to get to the park I was staying at in Pomona from West Hollywood, I should get on the freeway, get in the left lane, immediately, and then not change lanes until the lane forced me off at the correct exit.
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Post by OziRiS on Jun 29, 2014 15:46:10 GMT
In my mind, there's no question it is. Why else would anyone ever have felt a need to make a map of anything? An accurate map and the ability to read it and plan your route will always (at least to me) be preferable to relying on the momory and explanatory abilities of a complete stranger. and what is a map but the memory and explanatory abilities of a complete stranger? I'd at least like to think that scientifically surveying and measuring an area to give as complete and accurate a depiction of what that area looks like is a tad more precise than "Eeerm... Yeah, I think you need to take a left on *BLAH* Drive, go past the McNope's and take a right. Or is it a left...? I forget... Anyway, it's down thataways somewehere."
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Post by mrfatso on Jun 29, 2014 21:51:06 GMT
So I get what you are saying... We will produce Various results along the "Confirmed" route that you can get somewhere without a map, its just the varying degree as to how some people get the right result. And failure is an option.... some people will not get there in a certain time frame. There has to be a time limit, otherwise, well, lets just say I do actually know someone who would spend all day dong a 10 mile journey if she didnt have someone to tell her where to go?... And its the same trip she has already done many times, she just "Forgets" where she has to turn..... As for efficiency of asking directions, I do know a driver who got lost in Stratford...In Avon.... Home of Shakespeare..... Unlucky. After many failed attempts to ask for directions and getting various stages of "Gee, I just dont know, I am a visiting from America", he worked out that several coaches has recently unloaded tourists and he was surrounded. The shops were too busy selling souvenirs, and the one police officer he saw was far too busy having his photo taken with a stream of tourists.... Half an hour to find someone who spoke reasonable English and had a fair idea where they were looking for.... I once knew someone who,had a job in Stratford in London, and instead went to Stratford Upon Avon in Warwickshire.
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Post by the light works on Jun 29, 2014 23:54:00 GMT
and what is a map but the memory and explanatory abilities of a complete stranger? I'd at least like to think that scientifically surveying and measuring an area to give as complete and accurate a depiction of what that area looks like is a tad more precise than "Eeerm... Yeah, I think you need to take a left on *BLAH* Drive, go past the McNope's and take a right. Or is it a left...? I forget... Anyway, it's down thataways somewehere." when you follow the instructions from mapquest and find yourself looking at your destination in your rear view mirror, you will figure out the error in that assumption.
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